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HEAT penetration angle - BUG ?


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HassenderZerhacker #1 Posted 03 January 2019 - 10:31 AM

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had this happen to me today.

I cannot understand why this HEAT round penned the roof, the angle should not allow it.

 

another problem with this is that the IS-3A that shot me was on level ground (my cannon approx. points DOWN at the IS-3A's center), I can't understand how the shell trajectory can turn out like that.

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Edited by HassenderZerhacker, 03 January 2019 - 10:32 AM.


Dava_117 #2 Posted 03 January 2019 - 10:35 AM

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View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 03 January 2019 - 10:31 AM, said:

had this happen to me today.

I cannot understand why this HEAT round penned the roof, the angle should not allow it.

 

another problem with this is that the IS-3A that shot me was on level ground (my cannon approx. points at the IS-3A's center), I can't understand how the shell trajectory can turn out like that.

 

How far was the IS-3A?

My guess is that it was far enought for the shell to feel gravity (straight line approximation not working) and the shell actually hit that almost flat plate few cm away from the trajectory line, just behind the mantlet.


Edited by Dava_117, 03 January 2019 - 10:36 AM.


Baleent7 #3 Posted 03 January 2019 - 10:39 AM

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View PostDava_117, on 03 January 2019 - 09:35 AM, said:

 

How far was the IS-3A?

My guess is that it was far enought for the shell to feel gravity (straight line approximation not working) and the shell actually hit that almost flat plate few cm away from the impact point, just behind the mantlet.

 

It's not very likely, the IS-3a has ridiculously good shell velocity, so it won't be THIS affected by gravity. Also, OP said he was aiming down with his gun on the center of the IS-3a, which means it must not have had the angle for this shot. Something is fishy here...

 

edit: OP, where you not reversing onto a little bump or something which angled your own vehicle downwards?


Edited by Baleent7, 03 January 2019 - 10:40 AM.


LordMuffin #4 Posted 03 January 2019 - 10:45 AM

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If looking at the direction of the shell and impact on turret roof, there is no reason to assume it would ricochet if it was a HEAT shell.
Heat shells don't ricochet unless impact angle is 85 degrees or more from the normal.
So a pen-roll is guaranteed from the picture.

HEAT shells also have way less velocity then APCR, so they will have a visible shell arc most of the times.

Dava_117 #5 Posted 03 January 2019 - 10:46 AM

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View PostBaleent7, on 03 January 2019 - 10:39 AM, said:

 

It's not very likely, the IS-3a has ridiculously good shell velocity, so it won't be THIS affected by gravity. Also, OP said he was aiming down with his gun on the center of the IS-3a, which means it must not have had the angle for this shot. Something is fishy here...

 

edit: OP, where you not reversing onto a little bump or something which angled your own vehicle downwards?

 

Well, that HEAT shell has a muzzle velocity of 820m/s.

You can already see the parabolic trajectory at 400-500m with the ~920m/s AP round of the M62-T2, so if the IS-3A was at really long range, the trajectory may be able to pass just above the mantlet and hit that 200mm plate.

A replay would fix the problem IMO...


Edited by Dava_117, 03 January 2019 - 10:47 AM.


BR33K1_PAWAH #6 Posted 03 January 2019 - 12:23 PM

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HEATs have way better normalization than other types of shells.

UrQuan #7 Posted 03 January 2019 - 12:24 PM

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In a case like this, replay can be handy, because the impact mod isn't entirely accurate & this can lead to disparities in edge-case shots. Note that the impact mod is good for learning why some shots penned you (and some didn't) but when landing on rare/odd cases, involving edges & weird shots, the impact mod doesn't tell the whole story & a replay can be very helpful to shine an extra light on it & helps to resolve what happened.

 

View PostBR33K1_PAWAH, on 03 January 2019 - 12:23 PM, said:

HEATs have way better normalization than other types of shells.

It is the opposite actually, they have no normalisation. It is what makes them so bad against angled armor (and spaced armor). AP has the best normalisation (5 degree correction), followed by APCR (2 degree correction)

 

 

Edit; I used tanks GG to simulate the shell impact coming from that picture: VK 100 VS IS-3A HEAT shell & as the impact mod shows the shell coming from slightly above, the HEAT shell never reaches its autobounce angle (85 degrees) & so it always pens that dented rooftop.

The reason for this is the dent in the VK 100 turret, making that top armor part angled towards the HEAT shell & as it is only 40mm, the high pen of the HEAT shell can overcome that shallow angle & penetrates. Note HEAT has no overmatch mechanism & no normalisation feature on pens, so it sometimes fails in penning thinner armor when the angle is too shallow but not autobounce.

 If it was flat, it could have bounced due to the 85 degree autobounce (tried this on the flat miniturret top to confirm) 

So it wasn't even a real edge-case shot, just a normal pen, caused by the odd shape of the VK 100 turret roof.

On the case of the shell trajectory turning out like that, all shells travel in a slight arc, the slower the shell, the more pronounced the arc. HEAT tends to be among the slower shell types and thereby tends to have a larger arc, explaining the shell trajectory & the shell coming from above in your pic. 

 

Extra edit: I do like to thank OP for providing a picture that highlighted his issue. If more people did that (or provided replays more freely) on things & issues they experience & want to know more about, we would gain so much more knowledge & experience. Not to mention being able to explain in more detail on what occurred & why it happened, helping people to address this in future encounters.

 


Edited by UrQuan, 03 January 2019 - 03:29 PM.


LordMuffin #8 Posted 03 January 2019 - 12:25 PM

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View PostBR33K1_PAWAH, on 03 January 2019 - 12:23 PM, said:

HEATs have way better normalization than other types of shells.

No. HEAT doesn't normalise at all.



Balc0ra #9 Posted 03 January 2019 - 12:37 PM

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iirc that mod goes by client-side info. So not always 100% correct in terms of the impact area.  

 

View PostBaleent7, on 03 January 2019 - 10:39 AM, said:

 

It's not very likely, the IS-3a has ridiculously good shell velocity

 

IS-3A HEAT. So not APCR. 

 

But either way it's not easy to see on the image what the impact angle is. Was he above you? Regardless, if you go to tank.gg and compare the VK's armor on that spot vs the IS-3A's HEAT at that area based on the image. It more or less says a 78-degree impact angle vs armor with a high chance to pen if he was indeed above him somehow. And I suspect his normal ammo would pen it too, as it's 40mm vs a 122mm gun. 



AliceUnchained #10 Posted 03 January 2019 - 01:07 PM

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View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 03 January 2019 - 10:31 AM, said:

had this happen to me today.

I cannot understand why this HEAT round penned the roof, the angle should not allow it.

 

another problem with this is that the IS-3A that shot me was on level ground (my cannon approx. points DOWN at the IS-3A's center), I can't understand how the shell trajectory can turn out like that.

 

Provide the replay, not this guestemate client side MOD gimmick please. Best guess for now is that the HEAT round struck at just below 85º impact, on the triangular plate just behind the trajectory (so to the lefty in your picture). Checking tanks.gg it will have around ~300 mm effective armor vs. IS-3A HEAT round (but a minor change in angle either way can change it to ~270 mm or lower or ~320 mm and up), so possible with a high penetration roll.

Malakhi75 #11 Posted 03 January 2019 - 01:54 PM

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View PostBR33K1_PAWAH, on 03 January 2019 - 12:23 PM, said:

HEATs have way better normalization than other types of shells.

 

Uhmm, no it doesn't.....

BR33K1_PAWAH #12 Posted 03 January 2019 - 02:54 PM

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View PostMalakhi75, on 03 January 2019 - 03:54 PM, said:

 

Uhmm, no it doesn't.....

 

Yes, looks like you're right.



AliceUnchained #13 Posted 03 January 2019 - 03:11 PM

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View PostBR33K1_PAWAH, on 03 January 2019 - 02:54 PM, said:

Yes, looks like you're right.

 

Maybe actually read all posts next time? This was pointed out to you in posts #7 and #8 already by UrQuan and LordMuffin respectively. And it doesn't 'look' like they're right either, they are right.

pecopad #14 Posted 03 January 2019 - 03:38 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 03 January 2019 - 12:37 PM, said:

iirc that mod goes by client-side info. So not always 100% correct in terms of the impact area.  

 

 

IS-3A HEAT. So not APCR. 

 

But either way it's not easy to see on the image what the impact angle is. Was he above you? Regardless, if you go to tank.gg and compare the VK's armor on that spot vs the IS-3A's HEAT at that area based on the image. It more or less says a 78-degree impact angle vs armor with a high chance to pen if he was indeed above him somehow. And I suspect his normal ammo would pen it too, as it's 40mm vs a 122mm gun. 

 

Quite the contrary of what is being said here. How could any mode be client side, if the hits are calculated by server... Does not register ghost shells also.

 

Bugs and hitbox problems in tanks, that usually explains the weird pens...

 

Its actually a good honey pot for aimbots. Not saying this is the case, because in this case he probably just missed the cupola


Edited by pecopad, 03 January 2019 - 03:41 PM.


BR33K1_PAWAH #15 Posted 03 January 2019 - 03:54 PM

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View PostAliceUnchained, on 03 January 2019 - 05:11 PM, said:

 

Maybe actually read all posts next time? This was pointed out to you in posts #7 and #8 already by UrQuan and LordMuffin respectively. And it doesn't 'look' like they're right either, they are right.

 

Pfff, u for real?



MeetriX #16 Posted 03 January 2019 - 03:54 PM

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IS-3A HEAT penetrate 40mm armor up to 82°.

pecopad #17 Posted 03 January 2019 - 03:58 PM

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4 in 5 pens from the IS3-A... now that is fishy...

 

Most probably an aimbot in action


Edited by pecopad, 03 January 2019 - 03:58 PM.


AliceUnchained #18 Posted 03 January 2019 - 04:03 PM

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View PostBR33K1_PAWAH, on 03 January 2019 - 03:54 PM, said:

Pfff, u for real?

 

No, I am virtual. Or perhaps fake, non-existent even. Like I said, learn to read properly. And at least write like a semi-intelligent being. There is no reasonable, logical, or other reason to write 'u' instead of 'you'. At least you skipped the 'r' before the 'u'...

 

View PostMeetriX, on 03 January 2019 - 03:54 PM, said:

IS-3A HEAT penetrate 40mm armor up to 82°.

 

Actually, it can penetrate even at 83º impact angle (83,19º to be somewhat more precise). Albeit unlikely in that case, as it would require a very high roll.

 

View Postpecopad, on 03 January 2019 - 03:58 PM, said:

4 in 5 pens from the IS3-A... now that is fishy...

 

Most probably an aimbot in action

 

Obviously... as those can and will negate the influence dispersion, and RNG on penetration... :facepalm:

 


Edited by AliceUnchained, 03 January 2019 - 04:04 PM.


QPoszto #19 Posted 03 January 2019 - 04:18 PM

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View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 03 January 2019 - 10:31 AM, said:

had this happen to me today.

I cannot understand why this HEAT round penned the roof, the angle should not allow it.

 

another problem with this is that the IS-3A that shot me was on level ground (my cannon approx. points DOWN at the IS-3A's center), I can't understand how the shell trajectory can turn out like that.

 

1. Is3a soviet.. any question?

2. If u were siting in your soviet vehicle but u had a german u sck.

Soviets have also more accurate gun than grille15 in real.

Deal with it.



HassenderZerhacker #20 Posted 03 January 2019 - 04:27 PM

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replay link:

http://wotreplays.eu...ker-vk_100_01_p

 

as I said before, I am still totally baffled by the angles


Edited by HassenderZerhacker, 03 January 2019 - 04:30 PM.





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