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Arad – A Non-Corridor City Map Proposal (With Pictures And Minimap)!

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grizly1973 #81 Posted 08 January 2019 - 06:49 PM

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View Posteekeeboo, on 08 January 2019 - 07:38 PM, said:

 

I mentioned previously why it's difficult to introduce player generated maps, not least because planning one doesn't mean it generates well in 3D but also because of royalties and in terms of IP rights and ownership. 

 

It's an interesting idea and I will see what happens, but based on what I saw recently with map tactics and tips, I have little faith with mostly people using paint to put big red squares around an island saying "arty spots" and all the real tanks meet in the middle :D 

 

As I've said previously, I would happily sign papers agreeing to give WG full rights to this proposal and using anything and everything mentioned in it. Were there any other map proposals that were player-made and sent to the analysis team or whoever decides if it's worth implementing? I haven't seen any serious map proposals on the forum yet, outside that Budapest map proposal: http://forum.worldof...t-map-proposal/ (that I would also like to see introduced). Maybe I didn't search well enough... There are, however, some good map proposals out there on other sites. Mainly Mal's maps: https://malsmaps.wor...suggestions-2/.

 

That sounds interesting, could you please link the topic in which people say that? Also, does that have anything to do with the way WG treats player ideas in general?



dan_dix #82 Posted 08 January 2019 - 07:01 PM

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View Postgrizly1973, on 08 January 2019 - 06:49 PM, said:

As I've said previously, I would happily sign papers agreeing to give WG full rights to this proposal and using anything and everything mentioned in it.

 

You might be able to give the rights to your work, but you probably don't hold the rights to all the google maps, pictures from the internet and the other material you used. This could be a real legal minefield for WG, they have have to check and get permissions for every single picture, vehicle model, etc before integrating it in the game. For that it's probably not worth for them bothering with your proposal, nomatter how good it may be in reality.

grizly1973 #83 Posted 08 January 2019 - 07:08 PM

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View Postfighting_falcon93, on 08 January 2019 - 07:12 PM, said:

First of all, great job with the suggestion. Regardless if I agree or disagree, I still think that you've done a great job and put in a lot of effort into the suggestion. +1 for that. And sorry that I made you wait so long for my reply, but I've had a lot to do.

 

When it comes to the map, in my opinion, I think there's 2 main problems:

 

1. It's a city map. In my opinion, city maps should be avoided since they create this close quarters brawling fest even if they're not full of corridors. This tunes down the spotting side and sniping side of the game. It makes heavily armored tanks even stronger, while tanks that depend on their camo/spotting/accuracy a lot worse. City maps also creates these areas where different classes go and have their own separated game rather than working together with other classes. For example, on your map, HTs will rush into mid because that's where the cover is, while TDs and LTs will rush the left side forest because that's where they can play the spotting/sniping game. In my opinion, this is not good, all classes should work in the same area, but from different distances, and help each other out instead of having their own separate battles. You've also used very large chunks of buildings, and since these blocks are not destructable, they limit flanking possibilites a lot.

 

2. A lot of the map area is unimportant and/or unusable. This is because you use quite large blocks of cover, for example in the north-east part of the map. Also, the way you've placed the bases in the standard game mode makes most of the northern part of the map completely irrelevant. In the start of the game, both teams will fight for the mid, and by the time the northern team gets pushed that far north, their base will propably be capped, not to mention that they won't have many tanks left to fight. In my opinion, the best base setup is either to have each teams base in the opposite corner of the map or to make a neutral base in the middle of the map.

 

Good luck on the upcoming maps and I hope that the next map will not be an urban environment aswell :P

 

Thank you for your reply. I've been waiting for it because I awaited some quality criticism, and I got it! Hurray!

 

Now, let me explain my view on the map (not saying your points are not good or anything):

 

1. While I agree that it's hard to make all classes prosper in a mix on city maps, they are a part of the game (and the ones in-game are far worse than what I made here) and will most likely stay part of it for as long as WoT exists (let's hope that's a long time). My map would force LTs and TDs to play differently. As you can see, there's no actual designated TD zone, because TDs should assist their heavies from mid-range in the wast part of the map and assist the mediums in the east part. The only real sniping line is along the bridge base, but not a lot of activity should be expected there. LTs will really do well on the eastern flank. They will actually be important in securing that flank, as they are the best class fitted to assist the mediums and annoy the enemy ones on that flank. Their speed will make good use of the abundant cover and allow them to play well. While most of the blocks are not destructible, I am open to modifying the historical layout and add passages through them, like the ones on Kharkov. Also, a map where all classes can fight from different distances would turn into a camp-fest and would generally be a mess. If you envision something else by this I'd very much appreciate if you could make a quick sketch on something that would play the way you said the ideal map should.

 

2. The northern team in Standard Random Battles should be moved more to the north-east of the place I depicted it on in my illustration (in Zone 2). I've already mentioned this quite a few times above but I know not everybody reads 5 pages of replies so that's not a problem. Now, you said that most of the map is unimportant. Well, most of the "unimportant" part of the map is actually perfect for making "clean-ups" a lot harder and transform them into a continuation of the actual fight. 1v1s should be a lot more tense and allow the player with the better situational awareness to win.

 

Thank you! Be asured that my next map will be a village one, but it will also have zones that will better suit some classes and make playing everything in the same zone almost impossible. :P

18:14 Added after 5 minutes

View Postdan_dix, on 08 January 2019 - 08:01 PM, said:

 

You might be able to give the rights to your work, but you probably don't hold the rights to all the google maps, pictures from the internet and the other material you used. This could be a real legal minefield for WG, they have have to check and get permissions for every single picture, vehicle model, etc before integrating it in the game. For that it's probably not worth for them bothering with your proposal, nomatter how good it may be in reality.

 

If they make their own vehicle models and just don't include the factory badge, they are free to model whatever they want. Also, they won't include the pictures I've linked in the actual map, but only the places the pictures depict. That's also completly legal. The buildings themselves aren't copyrighted by their architects, and even if some are, they can always be changed. Just like GTA 5 copies real-life cars but slightly alters them (which is, again, completly legal), WG should do the same if the intention to implement this map arises. I consider that implementing this map should take the same amount of effort Minsk took. Fun fact: The cars you see on the Minsk map have a WoT badge instead of their actual factory badge they had in real life, thus indicating that WG is fully aware of how to avoid copyright claims and other legal issues regarding game models/assets.

fighting_falcon93 #84 Posted 08 January 2019 - 09:30 PM

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View Postgrizly1973, on 08 January 2019 - 07:08 PM, said:

Also, a map where all classes can fight from different distances would turn into a camp-fest and would generally be a mess. If you envision something else by this I'd very much appreciate if you could make a quick sketch on something that would play the way you said the ideal map should.

 

I don't think it would turn into a camp-fest, but it would make the round a little bit longer and a bit more slow-phased rather than the 4 minute games we see sometimes. For example, in my opinion Prokhorovka is one of the better maps in the game, and that map does not result in camp-fests, only a bit more patient gameplay.

 

It's difficult to make a sketch of a map using a 2D painting program, because that creates a map built around obstacles rather than terrain elevation. But if you want an example, imagine Prokhorovka, but with the west field getting some more terrain irregularities to provide natural cover, and the east hill less corridorish (i.e. transform the lake into drivable terrain up onto the hill, and make the hill slightly less elevated).

 

I can try to demonstrate what I mean with Photoshop, but I'm not sure it will make any sense, since the terrain heights on the map are difficult to represent with a 2D picture. No promise though, it depends on if I find some time for it tonight or not.

 

View Posteekeeboo, on 08 January 2019 - 06:38 PM, said:

I have little faith with mostly people using paint to put big red squares around an island

 

That's the problem with not having a public map designer. Of course it sounds horrible to design maps with paint, because there's no way to represent terrain sculptation. How should players represent things like craters, hills, ridgelines, firing positions, vegetation, objects etc on a top-down image done in paint? Why not make a map designer aviable for public use? Other games such as Company of Heroes 2 have made their map designer aviable, and they allow their players to design maps that can be sent in. The "best" maps then gets placed in the game as "community spotlight".

 

The whole point is that a map should not be designed by red squares. WG needs to stop designing their maps with a "HTs go here, TDs go here" mindset. It's the players job to figure out where they should go in their tank, WG job is to create a piece of environment that offer interesting and balanced gameplay. WG should focus on spreading out all tanks across the entire map and make use of the entire map area, but instead WG focus on "guiding" players by making HT brawling areas and "highways" (corridors) from one brawling area or base to another. This is the major problem in almost every single map in todays game.

 

Also, the legal aspects of using player made maps can easily be solved by forcing players to accept terms of agreement before submitting their map. These terms of agreement would give WG full ownership of the map.



DorsVenabiIi #85 Posted 08 January 2019 - 09:46 PM

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Another flat city map, no thank you. 

grizly1973 #86 Posted 08 January 2019 - 10:15 PM

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View PostDorsVenabiIi, on 08 January 2019 - 10:46 PM, said:

Another flat city map, no thank you. 

 

It's not as flat as you might think. :great:
21:22 Added after 7 minutes

View Postfighting_falcon93, on 08 January 2019 - 10:30 PM, said:

 

I don't think it would turn into a camp-fest, but it would make the round a little bit longer and a bit more slow-phased rather than the 4 minute games we see sometimes. For example, in my opinion Prokhorovka is one of the better maps in the game, and that map does not result in camp-fests, only a bit more patient gameplay.

 

It's difficult to make a sketch of a map using a 2D painting program, because that creates a map built around obstacles rather than terrain elevation. But if you want an example, imagine Prokhorovka, but with the west field getting some more terrain irregularities to provide natural cover, and the east hill less corridorish (i.e. transform the lake into drivable terrain up onto the hill, and make the hill slightly less elevated).

 

I can try to demonstrate what I mean with Photoshop, but I'm not sure it will make any sense, since the terrain heights on the map are difficult to represent with a 2D picture. No promise though, it depends on if I find some time for it tonight or not.

 

 

That's the problem with not having a public map designer. Of course it sounds horrible to design maps with paint, because there's no way to represent terrain sculptation. How should players represent things like craters, hills, ridgelines, firing positions, vegetation, objects etc on a top-down image done in paint? Why not make a map designer aviable for public use? Other games such as Company of Heroes 2 have made their map designer aviable, and they allow their players to design maps that can be sent in. The "best" maps then gets placed in the game as "community spotlight".

 

The whole point is that a map should not be designed by red squares. WG needs to stop designing their maps with a "HTs go here, TDs go here" mindset. It's the players job to figure out where they should go in their tank, WG job is to create a piece of environment that offer interesting and balanced gameplay. WG should focus on spreading out all tanks across the entire map and make use of the entire map area, but instead WG focus on "guiding" players by making HT brawling areas and "highways" (corridors) from one brawling area or base to another. This is the major problem in almost every single map in todays game.

 

Also, the legal aspects of using player made maps can easily be solved by forcing players to accept terms of agreement before submitting their map. These terms of agreement would give WG full ownership of the map.

 

I get your point, but Prokhorovka really is a camp-fest. At least on the flanks. Both of them. I do get your point however, and support such map ideas too. I will use this mindset in one of my other proposals (a Grand Battles desert map).

I also agree that zones for each tank class shouldn't be made intentionally. My map, for example, offers a perfect enviroment for lights, mediums, TDs and heavies too (surprisingly) to fight in, all at the same time. That's the eastern flank, the suburbs. The western flank is also capable of offering LTs, MTs and TDs possibilities, but not so abundant. This is to balance the good positions these classes have on the eastern flank.

 

Anyways, all in all, what do you think about the map (comparing it to other city maps in-game)? Is it better, or worse. I think it's a lot better than anything we have as of now.



fighting_falcon93 #87 Posted 08 January 2019 - 10:46 PM

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View Postgrizly1973, on 08 January 2019 - 10:15 PM, said:

Anyways, all in all, what do you think about the map (comparing it to other city maps in-game)? Is it better, or worse.

 

Compared to the other city maps we have right now I fully agree it seems a lot better :great:



fighting_falcon93 #88 Posted 08 January 2019 - 10:58 PM

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View Postdan_dix, on 08 January 2019 - 07:01 PM, said:

you probably don't hold the rights to all the google maps, pictures from the internet and the other material you used. This could be a real legal minefield for WG, they have have to check and get permissions for every single picture, vehicle model, etc before integrating it in the game.

 

The point with having a map editor is not to just copy the players made map into the game and be done. The player made map serves only as a prototype. For that they don't need any rights. When players have voted for what map/maps they like the best, WG creates their own map from that prototype. WG can just copy the high data from the prototype, and fill the new map with their own textures, vegetation, objects etc. It's really simple, all these excuses that it's complicated are just excuses so they can continue designing their old broken maps.



DarkPacifist #89 Posted 09 January 2019 - 11:16 AM

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That's a very good work mate.

I would have one advice to you: depending on your studies, try to apply for an internship with WG, they may hire you even for a limited period of time (and who knows maybe later as a member of the map development team).

Keep the good work anyway :)



Gardar7 #90 Posted 09 January 2019 - 11:26 AM

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I would add a Hungarian themed map, from somewhere the northern coast of lake Balaton. Nice hills, mountains, valleys, open areas and some water. I was there last summer and it is marvelous. 

Spoiler

 



grizly1973 #91 Posted 09 January 2019 - 11:29 AM

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View PostGardar7, on 09 January 2019 - 12:26 PM, said:

I would add a Hungarian themed map, from somewhere the northern coast of lake Balaton. Nice hills, mountains, valleys, open areas and some water. I was there last summer and it is marvelous. 

Spoiler

 

 

That looks awesome! I advise you to cut a 1 km x 1 km square from Google Maps and do what I did to Arad. I will defintely support your idea! If you do it, post the link here as a reply! I'll definetly take a look!
10:32 Added after 2 minutes

View Postfighting_falcon93, on 08 January 2019 - 11:46 PM, said:

 

Compared to the other city maps we have right now I fully agree it seems a lot better :great:

 

Thanks! My next map proposal will surely be something you'll like a lot more! I just don't know when to start working on it because my vacantion period ends this week and I re-enter high-school routine... :(

Anyways, I'll make sure it comes as soon as possible.

10:33 Added after 3 minutes

View Postfighting_falcon93, on 08 January 2019 - 11:58 PM, said:

 

The point with having a map editor is not to just copy the players made map into the game and be done. The player made map serves only as a prototype. For that they don't need any rights. When players have voted for what map/maps they like the best, WG creates their own map from that prototype. WG can just copy the high data from the prototype, and fill the new map with their own textures, vegetation, objects etc. It's really simple, all these excuses that it's complicated are just excuses so they can continue designing their old broken maps.

 

True words... true words. If I'd get a map editor I'll only put untextured blocks as buildings. There's no point in making textures for a mere test pilot of a map. That's the job of the WG 3D team, who can do a lot better than I will ever do.
10:36 Added after 6 minutes

View PostDarkPacifist, on 09 January 2019 - 12:16 PM, said:

That's a very good work mate.

I would have one advice to you: depending on your studies, try to apply for an internship with WG, they may hire you even for a limited period of time (and who knows maybe later as a member of the map development team).

Keep the good work anyway :)

 

A collaboration could work even if I'm not hired by WG. My studies will allow me to work in the IT branch (when I finish them) and I really consider working for a big game company, but I'll have to wait 6 more years for that. I'm only in the middle of high-school. I still need to go to college and only then I can start a career. I'm already eager to start anyways! :P

Gardar7 #92 Posted 09 January 2019 - 11:54 AM

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View Postgrizly1973, on 09 January 2019 - 08:29 AM, said:

 

That looks awesome! I advise you to cut a 1 km x 1 km square from Google Maps and do what I did to Arad. I will defintely support your idea! If you do it, post the link here as a reply! I'll definetly take a look!

 

Thank you, I will work on it when I will have some spare time. :great:

 

 

 

 

 


DarkPacifist #93 Posted 09 January 2019 - 04:58 PM

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View Postgrizly1973, on 09 January 2019 - 11:29 AM, said:

A collaboration could work even if I'm not hired by WG. My studies will allow me to work in the IT branch (when I finish them) and I really consider working for a big game company, but I'll have to wait 6 more years for that. I'm only in the middle of high-school. I still need to go to college and only then I can start a career. I'm already eager to start anyways! :P

 

I wish you all the best for your studies then, I don't know how it works where you are but you may be able to make internships during college, then if you stay in touch with Wargaming you may have some opportunities. Looking forward to your map (and hope something could happen ingame).



grizly1973 #94 Posted 09 January 2019 - 06:59 PM

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View PostDarkPacifist, on 09 January 2019 - 05:58 PM, said:

 

I wish you all the best for your studies then, I don't know how it works where you are but you may be able to make internships during college, then if you stay in touch with Wargaming you may have some opportunities. Looking forward to your map (and hope something could happen ingame).

 

I still strongly hope that I will see it in-game. Sometime. I really wish WG would do more partnerships with players that make good suggestions. After all, it's for their benefit and their extra cash, not ours.

grizly1973 #95 Posted 10 January 2019 - 11:51 AM

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View Posteekeeboo, on 08 January 2019 - 07:38 PM, said:

It's an interesting idea and I will see what happens

I hope you don't mind me asking, but are you supposed to get notified of the proposal's state as it gets approved or rejected by each and every particular team in real time or you will just be told the final result, withoug many details about what was wrong with it & where.

 

Also, could your current lack of information be a good sign that the map is being analysed and not just thrown out the window or is the Russian New Year vacantion to blame?



eekeeboo #96 Posted 10 January 2019 - 12:13 PM

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You will not be notified, as I mention these things take a long time to consider and look in to, with a higher than not chance of failure because of all the issues that surround it, especially when you consider your proposal is still among the very first stages and even before 3D mapping. 

etody77 #97 Posted 10 January 2019 - 02:06 PM

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View Postgrizly1973, on 07 January 2019 - 04:02 PM, said:

 

I see you're a man of culture.

 

The TAA awaits the WoT battlefield indeed:

But a medium line could be added aswell, with the hightiers being similar to Russian vehicles. Yes, similar, not identical. I'm not getting into tech tree lines yet, even though I have some ideas. I'll keep focusing on maps for the time being.

 

before computers, i have read

before internet, i have played Panzer General

That game could be a good inspiration for new tanks, wheleed, half tracked, a good source for maps, corridors and open

But...there are already too many russian-like tanks

Maybe a new nation, India, with some new tanks, and some centurion-like tanks



grizly1973 #98 Posted 10 January 2019 - 02:08 PM

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View Posteekeeboo, on 10 January 2019 - 01:13 PM, said:

You will not be notified, as I mention these things take a long time to consider and look in to, with a higher than not chance of failure because of all the issues that surround it, especially when you consider your proposal is still among the very first stages and even before 3D mapping. 

 

Oh, I get it now. I was actually asking about you not be, given that you're the one that made the connection between the player and WG itself. I thought that they will tell you how it's going so you can then tell us here in the forum. I mean, if it fails, are you going to be the one to actually tell us or we'll just never know and it will simply never appear without further notice? In the same way, if it fits all criteria and work starts on it will somebody tell us here or it will simply appear in the game without us being told beforehand? I remember that sp15 from the US forums collaborated relatively closely WG in the making of the Swedish tech tree. I am wondering if it could be the same case here if everythings turns out to be all-right. Anyways, is there anything I could do to help or I'll just have to wait? 
13:11 Added after 3 minutes

View Postetody77, on 10 January 2019 - 03:06 PM, said:

 

before computers, i have read

before internet, i have played Panzer General

That game could be a good inspiration for new tanks, wheleed, half tracked, a good source for maps, corridors and open

But...there are already too many russian-like tanks

Maybe a new nation, India, with some new tanks, and some centurion-like tanks

 

India would be a copy-paste British tech tree. I'd much rather have the Spanish tech tree in this case. But let's keep the talk on-topic please. This topic is about maps, not branches nor tech trees.

etody77 #99 Posted 10 January 2019 - 02:44 PM

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View Postgrizly1973, on 10 January 2019 - 02:08 PM, said:

 

India would be a copy-paste British tech tree. I'd much rather have the Spanish tech tree in this case. But let's keep the talk on-topic please. This topic is about maps, not branches nor tech trees.

Ok, maps, I'd like to see more maps from Panzer General, adapted to WoT, they are historicall maps



grizly1973 #100 Posted 10 January 2019 - 02:47 PM

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View Postetody77, on 10 January 2019 - 03:44 PM, said:

Ok, maps, I'd like to see more maps from Panzer General, adapted to WoT, they are historicall maps

 

I have a few historical map proposals planned! :P No idea when I'll have the time to work on them though.

 

EDIT: My 2nd map proposal is out. Check it here: http://forum.worldof...es-and-minimap/


Edited by grizly1973, 12 January 2019 - 01:31 PM.






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