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Lowe, did they nerfed it recently?


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UntouchableRo #1 Posted 04 January 2019 - 10:13 AM

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beside that i noticed some crapaiming time as before, accuracy got also worst! maybe that is me... but still, how do you explain this pens from a WZ-111-1GT FT with AP with the 122mm gun that has 440 alpha and 248 pen?

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captainpigg #2 Posted 04 January 2019 - 10:22 AM

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Replay please, not going to take the word of some 3'rd party mod as to where you got hit.

XxKuzkina_MatxX #3 Posted 04 January 2019 - 10:23 AM

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Very lucky shot!



AHLagman #4 Posted 04 January 2019 - 11:52 AM

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View Postcaptainpigg, on 04 January 2019 - 12:22 PM, said:

Replay please, not going to take the word of some 3'rd party mod as to where you got hit.

 

^

View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 04 January 2019 - 12:23 PM, said:

 

Very lucky shot!

 

It says absorbed, no damage. Could just be luck though, as you said

XxKuzkina_MatxX #5 Posted 04 January 2019 - 12:04 PM

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View PostAHLagman, on 04 January 2019 - 12:52 PM, said:

 

It says absorbed, no damage. Could just be luck though, as you said

 

I watched Daki, Stanlock and Decha on stream aiming for that spot and sometimes doing damage when they're lucky enough to hit that pixel. Daki commented on the lowe's gun mantlet just a few days ago when he said "same as the pz 7 mantlet".

 

Also if the replay was presented you could say that it's just the client side of things this isn't the whole picture. SO, what's the only solid piece of information in this mess???

 

  1. A penetration in the gun mantlet by a 248 mm AP shell.
  2. A pixel to the right and left of the gun with 200mm of spaced armor (absorbed!) with 0 armor behind it.

 

You can figure out what happened there.



Dava_117 #6 Posted 04 January 2019 - 12:14 PM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 04 January 2019 - 12:04 PM, said:

 

I watched Daki, Stanlock and Decha on stream aiming for that spot and sometimes doing damage when they're lucky enough to hit that pixel. Daki commented on the lowe's gun mantlet just a few days ago when he said "same as the pz 7 mantlet".

 

Also if the replay was presented you could say that it's just the client side of things this isn't the whole picture. SO, what's the only solid piece of information in this mess???

 

  1. A penetration in the gun mantlet by a 248 mm AP shell.
  2. A pixel to the right and left of the gun with 200mm of spaced armor (absorbed!) with 0 armor behind it.

 

You can figure out what happened there.

 

The problem is that this penetration should not happen. The reason because tanks.gg says absorbed is the 10 caliber rule as the mantlet is longer than 1220mm. If it actually pen, there must be something on WG side. A bug on the distance measurment algorithm, or they may have just changed the rule and we're not aware of the change.

Edited by Dava_117, 04 January 2019 - 12:14 PM.


trefferlage #7 Posted 04 January 2019 - 01:08 PM

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View PostDava_117, on 04 January 2019 - 11:14 AM, said:

 

The problem is that this penetration should not happen. The reason because tanks.gg says absorbed is the 10 caliber rule as the mantlet is longer than 1220mm. If it actually pen, there must be something on WG side. A bug on the distance measurment algorithm, or they may have just changed the rule and we're not aware of the change.

 

or Maybe the thruth ? that all is done , and i mean ALL and EVERYTHING via RNG :-) so it was the time for a pen..lol.. come on, which mechanics do u mean ? there is only mechanic working : R N G.. point

SuperOlsson #8 Posted 04 January 2019 - 01:09 PM

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View PostDava_117, on 04 January 2019 - 12:14 PM, said:

 

The problem is that this penetration should not happen. The reason because tanks.gg says absorbed is the 10 caliber rule as the mantlet is longer than 1220mm. If it actually pen, there must be something on WG side. A bug on the distance measurment algorithm, or they may have just changed the rule and we're not aware of the change.

Doesn’t the 10-caliber rule apply only internally after penetration? Iirc the gun mantlet is modelled as spaced armour with the “real” tank behind it modelled as 0 mm armour after some distance depending on the tank, or did I get that all wrong? So maybe tanks.gg incorrectly considers all space after spaced armour to be internal. Sometimes tanks.gg says absorbed to shots I’m 100% sure I’ve penetrated ingame.


Edited by SuperOlsson, 04 January 2019 - 01:16 PM.


XxKuzkina_MatxX #9 Posted 04 January 2019 - 02:43 PM

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View PostDava_117, on 04 January 2019 - 01:14 PM, said:

 

The problem is that this penetration should not happen. The reason because tanks.gg says absorbed is the 10 caliber rule as the mantlet is longer than 1220mm. If it actually pen, there must be something on WG side. A bug on the distance measurment algorithm, or they may have just changed the rule and we're not aware of the change.

 

10 caliber rule states that...

 

"When a shot penetrates, the shell travels 10 times its own caliber in length inside the tank. The remaining penetration potential is the initial penetration value, randomized at the point of impact +/- 25%, minus whatever effective armour thickness that was penetrated. This remaining penetration potential is then used to calculate whether any other armour plates that are hit can be penetrated. Internal modules or crew members have no armour and thus will always get hit if any penetration potential is left in the shell."

 

The lowe's mantlet is definitely not 1.22 meters in length! :)



tankqull #10 Posted 04 January 2019 - 03:06 PM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 04 January 2019 - 01:43 PM, said:

 

10 caliber rule states that...

 

"When a shot penetrates, the shell travels 10 times its own caliber in length inside the tank. The remaining penetration potential is the initial penetration value, randomized at the point of impact +/- 25%, minus whatever effective armour thickness that was penetrated. This remaining penetration potential is then used to calculate whether any other armour plates that are hit can be penetrated. Internal modules or crew members have no armour and thus will always get hit if any penetration potential is left in the shell."

 

The lowe's mantlet is definitely not 1.22 meters in length! :)

 

*edited*  
"When a shot penetrates, the shell travels 10 times its own caliber in length inside the tank."        not the armor

 

the 10x caliber rule exists to determine if multiple modules will be hit or if the shell might be able to exit the tank again hitting another one aswell...

 


Edited by Jahpero, 05 January 2019 - 10:33 AM.
This post has been edited by the moderation team due to flaming.


Dava_117 #11 Posted 04 January 2019 - 03:09 PM

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View PostSuperOlsson, on 04 January 2019 - 01:09 PM, said:

Doesn’t the 10-caliber rule apply only internally after penetration? Iirc the gun mantlet is modelled as spaced armour with the “real” tank behind it modelled as 0 mm armour after some distance depending on the tank, or did I get that all wrong? So maybe tanks.gg incorrectly considers all space after spaced armour to be internal. Sometimes tanks.gg says absorbed to shots I’m 100% sure I’ve penetrated ingame.

 

No, the 10 caliber rule is applied to AP and APCR round as soon as they penetrate an external module, a spaced armour layer or the primary armour. That's why track and spaced armpur works well with sidescrape or Type5 side armour behind the spaced armour can be penned only by 122mm or higher  shells.

 

View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 04 January 2019 - 02:43 PM, said:

 

10 caliber rule states that...

 

"When a shot penetrates, the shell travels 10 times its own caliber in length inside the tank. The remaining penetration potential is the initial penetration value, randomized at the point of impact +/- 25%, minus whatever effective armour thickness that was penetrated. This remaining penetration potential is then used to calculate whether any other armour plates that are hit can be penetrated. Internal modules or crew members have no armour and thus will always get hit if any penetration potential is left in the shell."

 

The lowe's mantlet is definitely not 1.22 meters in length! :)

 

Yep, that's the point. It looks longer than 1.22m, and that's why tanks.gg says the shell get absorbed. 

I'm not saying that WG is cheating or manipulating shots, but a bug or a glitch is possible.

To be fair, I would suggest to OP to add the replay too and signal what happened to support as a possible bug...


Edited by Dava_117, 04 January 2019 - 03:10 PM.


UrQuan #12 Posted 04 January 2019 - 03:11 PM

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For stuff like this I'd love to see replays. In previous threads about this, the mod is not always accurate with hits on the gun barrels & mantlets, as it seems to use the texture model for hits & not the hitmodel at times.

Also keep in mind that shots can ricochet off & still pen your tank (at another place) such spots are called shot-traps (the T34 & T29 turret undersides are the most known for it). Wouldn't surprise me if the gun barrel mantlet of the Lowe had something similar going (hit side of the thick gun mantlet barrel: bounces off into gun mantlet for a pen) Edit2: checked & it can happen, pretty situational tho, so not a real shot-trap, but still a valid possibility for odd pens.

No idea how the hitmod treats ricocheting pens.

 

Edit: regarding the 10 caliber rule, remember that comes into effect the moment it first pens. When faced with spaced armor (like a gun mantlet or tracks) it has to pen the next layer of armor again to continue the trajectory. If it fails to pen that next layer, the shell stops. This is best seen when shooting SuperPershing tanks frontally, they got thin frontal (max is 100mm armor) but spaced armor, making it very hard to pen, because the shell has to roll for pen at each layer.


Edited by UrQuan, 04 January 2019 - 03:17 PM.


XxKuzkina_MatxX #13 Posted 04 January 2019 - 05:44 PM

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View Posttankqull, on 04 January 2019 - 04:06 PM, said:

*edited*  

"When a shot penetrates, the shell travels 10 times its own caliber in length inside the tank."        not the armor

the 10x caliber rule exists to determine if multiple modules will be hit or if the shell might be able to exit the tank again hitting another one aswell...

 

*edited*  


Edited by Jahpero, 05 January 2019 - 10:34 AM.
This post has been edited by the moderation team due to off-topic.


Element6 #14 Posted 04 January 2019 - 06:09 PM

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View PostUrQuan, on 04 January 2019 - 03:11 PM, said:

For stuff like this I'd love to see replays. In previous threads about this, the mod is not always accurate with hits on the gun barrels & mantlets, as it seems to use the texture model for hits & not the hitmodel at times.

Also keep in mind that shots can ricochet off & still pen your tank (at another place) such spots are called shot-traps (the T34 & T29 turret undersides are the most known for it). Wouldn't surprise me if the gun barrel mantlet of the Lowe had something similar going (hit side of the thick gun mantlet barrel: bounces off into gun mantlet for a pen) Edit2: checked & it can happen, pretty situational tho, so not a real shot-trap, but still a valid possibility for odd pens.

No idea how the hitmod treats ricocheting pens.

 

Edit: regarding the 10 caliber rule, remember that comes into effect the moment it first pens. When faced with spaced armor (like a gun mantlet or tracks) it has to pen the next layer of armor again to continue the trajectory. If it fails to pen that next layer, the shell stops. This is best seen when shooting SuperPershing tanks frontally, they got thin frontal (max is 100mm armor) but spaced armor, making it very hard to pen, because the shell has to roll for pen at each layer.

In the past you could sometimes quite reliably shoot directly under the gun of the Löwe and bounce down into the deck hull which is only 40mm, same as the entire top deck of the tank. Pretty sure that is still viable, but it's not something I've tried in a long time since...I didn't think of it again until I read this thread.



Homer_J #15 Posted 04 January 2019 - 06:22 PM

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View PostUntouchableRo, on 04 January 2019 - 09:13 AM, said:

beside that i noticed some crapaiming time as before, accuracy got also worst! maybe that is me... but still, how do you explain this pens from a WZ-111-1GT FT with AP with the 122mm gun that has 440 alpha and 248 pen?

 

Doesn't matter what your client thinks.  You need to know where the server thinks it hit.  I really wouldn't put pixel perfect trust in that mod.

 

Server says it penned.  End of story.

 

And no.  Lowe has only been buffed.






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