Jump to content


WoT is not broken...


  • Please log in to reply
88 replies to this topic

Homer_J #41 Posted 07 January 2019 - 01:24 AM

    Field Marshal

  • Beta Tester
  • 31416 battles
  • 34,213
  • [WJDE] WJDE
  • Member since:
    09-03-2010

View PostWintermute_1, on 06 January 2019 - 11:58 PM, said:

 

People play games to have fun, if it stops being fun they stop playing.

I see a lot of evidence to the contrary on this forum.



Wintermute_1 #42 Posted 07 January 2019 - 02:11 AM

    Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 47847 battles
  • 1,959
  • Member since:
    11-25-2013

View PostHomer_J, on 07 January 2019 - 01:24 AM, said:

I see a lot of evidence to the contrary on this forum.

 

A lot of the people on the forum complaining about the MM are probably more able to mitigate the problem, by playing high Pen guns for example, and therefore limit the slog. Its these guys you need to worry about. 



Homer_J #43 Posted 07 January 2019 - 03:02 AM

    Field Marshal

  • Beta Tester
  • 31416 battles
  • 34,213
  • [WJDE] WJDE
  • Member since:
    09-03-2010

View PostWintermute_1, on 07 January 2019 - 01:11 AM, said:

 

A lot of the people on the forum complaining about the MM are probably more able to mitigate the problem, by playing high Pen guns for example, and therefore limit the slog. Its these guys you need to worry about. 

 

What has that got to do with people not enjoying the game but continuing to play?

Robbie_T #44 Posted 07 January 2019 - 03:08 AM

    Warrant Officer

  • Player
  • 19105 battles
  • 702
  • [BBMM] BBMM
  • Member since:
    07-08-2016

A lost game can be fun

But the last week bin a total BS ...38%,38%.,39%,52%,46%. even the win games most of them where not fun

it was win 15-4 or lose 4 -15 and that all in 5 minutes...(batle is played after 3)

But lucky i heared school starts tommorow and hope Wot return to "normal".It already started to get back to normal Sunday evening.

 

 

 


Edited by Robbie_T, 07 January 2019 - 03:11 AM.


Wintermute_1 #45 Posted 07 January 2019 - 04:24 AM

    Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 47847 battles
  • 1,959
  • Member since:
    11-25-2013

View PostHomer_J, on 07 January 2019 - 03:02 AM, said:

 

What has that got to do with people not enjoying the game but continuing to play?

 

There are a quarter million people fewer playing the game this year than the same time last year. That suggests they aren't enjoying the game and have stopped playing. Perma bottom tier 8 MM isn't increasing those players enjoyment and retaining them. 

 

Whats the forum evidence that players continue to play when not enjoying the game? When some guy 'ragequit posts' then his play count edges up a day later? 

 

Its the Qtr Million missing players that are significant.



XxKuzkina_MatxX #46 Posted 07 January 2019 - 08:01 AM

    Colonel

  • Player
  • 53201 battles
  • 3,762
  • [OBY] OBY
  • Member since:
    04-02-2016

View PostHomer_J, on 06 January 2019 - 09:27 PM, said:

 

That's because they are selfish.

 

I don't mind being bottom tier because if I do something stupid (and I often do) then it doesn't matter.

 

Sorry but that's one silly comment if there ever was one!

 

The best people asked for on these forums are equal distribution between top and bottom tier games, selfishness got nothing to do with a bad template system and skewed distribution of players between the tiers.

 

One funny thing i see very often is people forgetting how to play first line or when/what to push. They became so used to the "support" role, they forgot (or never learned) how to play top tiers.

 

Also in this role/capacity as a support or second line how would you know what's "stupid" and what's not? Being bottom tier shields you from having to fight the big bad guys but it also shields you from making a play against certain targets. In a way, being bottom tier most of the time limits your understanding of the battle flow.



clixor #47 Posted 07 January 2019 - 10:18 AM

    Lieutenant Сolonel

  • Player
  • 53537 battles
  • 3,139
  • Member since:
    08-07-2011

View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 07 January 2019 - 08:01 AM, said:

 

Sorry but that's one silly comment if there ever was one!

 

The best people asked for on these forums are equal distribution between top and bottom tier games, selfishness got nothing to do with a bad template system and skewed distribution of players between the tiers.

 

One funny thing i see very often is people forgetting how to play first line or when/what to push. They became so used to the "support" role, they forgot (or never learned) how to play top tiers.

 

Also in this role/capacity as a support or second line how would you know what's "stupid" and what's not? Being bottom tier shields you from having to fight the big bad guys but it also shields you from making a play against certain targets. In a way, being bottom tier most of the time limits your understanding of the battle flow.

 

I would say being toptier (in 3/5/7 at least) is one of the most difficult skills to master in WOT. You have to have knowledge of maps to get to chokepoints asap, knowledge of majority of tanks, be superactive and opportunistic, have some cojones, good sense of timing and last but not least awesome map awareness. 

 

Ofcourse practise helps, but, really, i would bet my account that the MAJORITY of players have worse winrates when they are toptier then when they are not.



XxKuzkina_MatxX #48 Posted 07 January 2019 - 10:59 AM

    Colonel

  • Player
  • 53201 battles
  • 3,762
  • [OBY] OBY
  • Member since:
    04-02-2016

View Postclixor, on 07 January 2019 - 11:18 AM, said:

 

I would say being toptier (in 3/5/7 at least) is one of the most difficult skills to master in WOT. You have to have knowledge of maps to get to chokepoints asap, knowledge of majority of tanks, be superactive and opportunistic, have some cojones, good sense of timing and last but not least awesome map awareness. 

 

Ofcourse practise helps, but, really, i would bet my account that the MAJORITY of players have worse winrates when they are toptier then when they are not.

 

Ok, that's one way to look at it but how and when will you learn that? By being 2nd line most of the time? by not being able to engage certain targets and keep giving up map control?

 

If the 3-5-7 template putting you 80% of the time as bottom tier, what will you be able to learn/achieve in the remaining 20%??? Your argument is a double edged sword because players distribution between the teams can be against you. Also the initial argument of people being selfish, to which i replied, is even more invalid using your logic.



Crashzi #49 Posted 07 January 2019 - 11:04 AM

    Corporal

  • Player
  • 6663 battles
  • 172
  • Member since:
    12-09-2016
Being bottom tier most of games while the top tiers can blast you for half your HP or even just one shot is not really fun and you also need to fire gold 

dtdp #50 Posted 07 January 2019 - 11:19 AM

    Corporal

  • Player
  • 31932 battles
  • 149
  • Member since:
    09-23-2011

where did you get this 80% of the time as bottom tier, this is not what I encounter

 

 

btd.jpg

 

300 battles sample size, various tier 8 tanks

- so realistically you are being bottom tier in 3 out of 5 battles that you play and you see tier 6 tanks every 9th battle and this is what is so frustrating for people, this unfair treatment that forces you to go up the tiers, end when they got there most of them realize that they don't have the skill to play high tiers 

- so they quit    

 

 



Noo_Noo #51 Posted 07 January 2019 - 11:47 AM

    Major

  • Player
  • 22545 battles
  • 2,966
  • Member since:
    05-05-2013

For me there are lots of issues with the game which are slowly pushing me away I think. 

 

I've had games where being top tier is just not fun as we romp to a 15-1 win and you're struggling to simply keep up with the game play and get your damage in. 

Similarly, struggling to be anything of worth when you're bottom tier is no fun either, especially if you're on the end of a 15-1 drubbing as well. 

Tank balance is miles off, not only between tanks on the  same tier but also between tiers. It is honestly a mess. 

Premium ammo is taking a lot of blame for what is honestly a MM, Map design and tank balance issue. You cant play the game without it right now, and that need is increasing and that is by WG's own design. When the changes come into effect do people honestly think that it will fix the issue? No, people will fire more of it, because they have to. This will lead to even greater problems with in game economy for the average player and they will become p****d off and leave. 

I really wish I could understand WG's thought processes at the moment because instead of addressing problems within the game they simply continue to dig the hole deeper. 

Wot is not broken but it is in need of some serious surgery / fixing or it will be very quickly. I see very little in the various releases on up coming changes that will change it to be honest. QB may be looking for a different job before long. 

 

 



Homer_J #52 Posted 07 January 2019 - 04:16 PM

    Field Marshal

  • Beta Tester
  • 31416 battles
  • 34,213
  • [WJDE] WJDE
  • Member since:
    09-03-2010

View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 07 January 2019 - 07:01 AM, said:

 

The best people asked for on these forums are equal distribution between top and bottom tier games,

 

People also asked for no games where they were one of the one or two bottom tier tanks.  3-5-7 works for that purpose.

 

The only way to redress the balance and not be bottom tier as often is to make battles with less bottom tier tanks, which puts us right back with the situation people didn't like before.



XxKuzkina_MatxX #53 Posted 07 January 2019 - 04:53 PM

    Colonel

  • Player
  • 53201 battles
  • 3,762
  • [OBY] OBY
  • Member since:
    04-02-2016

View PostHomer_J, on 07 January 2019 - 05:16 PM, said:

 

People also asked for no games where they were one of the one or two bottom tier tanks.  3-5-7 works for that purpose.

 

The only way to redress the balance and not be bottom tier as often is to make battles with less bottom tier tanks, which puts us right back with the situation people didn't like before.

 

If that's the only way you know about after all these threads and discussions about the MM and the 3-5-7 template then you certainly are missing some very good solutions to the current problem. A problem that's currently been addressed on the Asian cluster by simply changing the template and the chance of being top/bottom tier in a given session.

 

Now calling others plainly selfish for asking to enjoy the game and be able to influence the outcome of the battle is "wrong" to be polite.



eekeeboo #54 Posted 07 January 2019 - 04:55 PM

    English Community Manager

  • WG Staff
  • 46430 battles
  • 2,292
  • Member since:
    07-25-2010

View PostNoo_Noo, on 07 January 2019 - 10:47 AM, said:

For me there are lots of issues with the game which are slowly pushing me away I think. 

 

I've had games where being top tier is just not fun as we romp to a 15-1 win and you're struggling to simply keep up with the game play and get your damage in. 

Similarly, struggling to be anything of worth when you're bottom tier is no fun either, especially if you're on the end of a 15-1 drubbing as well. 

Tank balance is miles off, not only between tanks on the  same tier but also between tiers. It is honestly a mess. 

Premium ammo is taking a lot of blame for what is honestly a MM, Map design and tank balance issue. You cant play the game without it right now, and that need is increasing and that is by WG's own design. When the changes come into effect do people honestly think that it will fix the issue? No, people will fire more of it, because they have to. This will lead to even greater problems with in game economy for the average player and they will become p****d off and leave. 

I really wish I could understand WG's thought processes at the moment because instead of addressing problems within the game they simply continue to dig the hole deeper. 

Wot is not broken but it is in need of some serious surgery / fixing or it will be very quickly. I see very little in the various releases on up coming changes that will change it to be honest. QB may be looking for a different job before long. 

 

 

 

It's also important to remember the thought process takes place over the course of months for multiple players, servers and regions. Hopefully this will help provide some insight. 

Gkirmathal #55 Posted 07 January 2019 - 06:00 PM

    Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 8237 battles
  • 1,616
  • [2VTD] 2VTD
  • Member since:
    01-14-2013

View Posteekeeboo, on 07 January 2019 - 03:55 PM, said:

 

It's also important to remember the thought process takes place over the course of months for multiple players, servers and regions. Hopefully this will help provide some insight. 

 

And that, the "...over the course of months..." is, and has always been a big part of the whole problem Eekeeboo.

 

Issues linger on for months (sometimes years) on end, before being tackled, or worse start to be recognized/taken serious.

And while some of those issues might be very effective for your employer, in terms of monitization/revenue gains, it started hurting player retention and product (outside) perception over the past two years. As you can read from Noo_Noo's feedback.

 

But I guess it is just indicative for an organisation as Wargaming, with their main focus region (in terms of gathering feedback) not being the EU/NA/SEA for a long time. Except when it comes to revenue.


Edited by Gkirmathal, 07 January 2019 - 06:02 PM.


eekeeboo #56 Posted 07 January 2019 - 06:04 PM

    English Community Manager

  • WG Staff
  • 46430 battles
  • 2,292
  • Member since:
    07-25-2010

View PostGkirmathal, on 07 January 2019 - 05:00 PM, said:

 

And that, the "...over the course of months..." is, and has always been a big part of the whole problem Eekeeboo.

 

Issues linger on for months (sometimes years) on end, before being tackled, or worse start to be recognized/taken serious.

And while some of those issues might be very effective for your employer, in terms of monitization/revenue gains, it started hurting player retention and product (outside) perception over the past two years. As you can read from Noo_Noo's feedback.

 

But I guess it is just indicative for an organisation as Wargaming, with their main focus region (in terms of gathering feedback) not being the EU/NA/SEA for a long time. Except when it comes to revenue.

 

And it shouldn't be a problem that solutions are well thought out, considered and tested. It's nice to have things expediently but it's nicer to have things done right. Especially when you consider the variables I mentioned. 

 

For the player retention and gain, I will repeat the recent claims that these are affected by balancing. Player retention is affected by balancing, true but not as much as say competition and player boredom. Player recruitment is a completely different set of things to be considered and balancing is way way way down the list of considerations. 

 

The main focus for WG is and should be all players over all regions, which is no small amount of people! 



Noo_Noo #57 Posted 07 January 2019 - 06:16 PM

    Major

  • Player
  • 22545 battles
  • 2,966
  • Member since:
    05-05-2013

View Posteekeeboo, on 07 January 2019 - 06:04 PM, said:

 

And it shouldn't be a problem that solutions are well thought out, considered and tested. It's nice to have things expediently but it's nicer to have things done right. Especially when you consider the variables I mentioned. 

 

For the player retention and gain, I will repeat the recent claims that these are affected by balancing. Player retention is affected by balancing, true but not as much as say competition and player boredom. Player recruitment is a completely different set of things to be considered and balancing is way way way down the list of considerations. 

 

The main focus for WG is and should be all players over all regions, which is no small amount of people! 

 

 

So you put the OBJ 268 V4 in game knowing it was "balanced " then? Same with the Defender, Type 5 Heavy, WT AUf E100 or whatever it was. Type 59 back in the day etc.

 

Do you honestly expect us to believe that? 

 



 



Gkirmathal #58 Posted 07 January 2019 - 06:55 PM

    Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 8237 battles
  • 1,616
  • [2VTD] 2VTD
  • Member since:
    01-14-2013

View Posteekeeboo, on 07 January 2019 - 05:04 PM, said:

 

And it shouldn't be a problem that solutions are well thought out, considered and tested. It's nice to have things expediently but it's nicer to have things done right. Especially when you consider the variables I mentioned. 

 

For the player retention and gain, I will repeat the recent claims that these are affected by balancing. Player retention is affected by balancing, true but not as much as say competition and player boredom. Player recruitment is a completely different set of things to be considered and balancing is way way way down the list of considerations. 

 

The main focus for WG is and should be all players over all regions, which is no small amount of people! 

 

'Done right' is in the eye of the beholder of course. If we ought to believe a lot of the CC feedback, lots of thing have not been 'done' especially 'right' since early 2017. I won't go into individual examples of content and features in this thread.

 

Ongoing balancing should have been/be on/at/near the top of the list. Especially with a product like WoT, that has so much content and content having been/being created. This has not been handled exceptionally well in my opinion over the past few years.

 

Okay, one example.

Early forum feedback showed that, after 9.19, the 3-5-7 priority change resulted in much higher negative perception of players on gameplay enjoyment regarding mm. It did take WG until very recently, aprox. two years, to openly recognize this and start re-addressing it (and still missing the boat by readding many new 2+ templates on SEA servers).
All the while it added to player boredom (3/4 of my old clan left within 1,5 years of 9.19), thus it hurt player retention (me included) and that can be seen in 3rd party site server statistics.

 

If the above was rather clear early on, based on early global forum feedback, why let that linger for 2 years?

The current Asia mm experiment, if resources were have been diverted from X/Y/Z, the same could have been done in summer 2017. A fix rolled out in fall 2017. Player enjoyment (perception/retention/boredom) would not have taken such a hit.

 

And that is what I meant. Some things take too unnecessary long (years) while they shouldn't.

A simple rebalancing of a tanks parameter for ample, rof/ammo pen/aim time/etc value change, to bring something out of a prower creeped state should not months. This can be analysed in a week+1, rolled out in two+1.

And I am not talking about some ridiculous value changes, as we have seen in some changes in the past 2 years,


Edited by Gkirmathal, 07 January 2019 - 06:56 PM.


eekeeboo #59 Posted 07 January 2019 - 07:29 PM

    English Community Manager

  • WG Staff
  • 46430 battles
  • 2,292
  • Member since:
    07-25-2010

View PostNoo_Noo, on 07 January 2019 - 05:16 PM, said:

 

 

So you put the OBJ 268 V4 in game knowing it was "balanced " then? Same with the Defender, Type 5 Heavy, WT AUf E100 or whatever it was. Type 59 back in the day etc.

 

Do you honestly expect us to believe that? 

 



 

 

*I* didn't put anything in the game, but on the other hand *I* will explain that tanks go through common testing and stats looked at. It's not until they hit the live server and you get to see the real performance you can truly judge just how a tank will perform. While you list all those tanks, I wonder how many you didn't list that were released and were fine, OK and those that were UP? Do you try to be objective in this or...? 

 

View PostGkirmathal, on 07 January 2019 - 05:55 PM, said:

 

'Done right' is in the eye of the beholder of course. If we ought to believe a lot of the CC feedback, lots of thing have not been 'done' especially 'right' since early 2017. I won't go into individual examples of content and features in this thread.

 

Ongoing balancing should have been/be on/at/near the top of the list. Especially with a product like WoT, that has so much content and content having been/being created. This has not been handled exceptionally well in my opinion over the past few years.

 

Okay, one example.

Early forum feedback showed that, after 9.19, the 3-5-7 priority change resulted in much higher negative perception of players on gameplay enjoyment regarding mm. It did take WG until very recently, aprox. two years, to openly recognize this and start re-addressing it (and still missing the boat by readding many new 2+ templates on SEA servers).
All the while it added to player boredom (3/4 of my old clan left within 1,5 years of 9.19), thus it hurt player retention (me included) and that can be seen in 3rd party site server statistics.

 

If the above was rather clear early on, based on early global forum feedback, why let that linger for 2 years?

The current Asia mm experiment, if resources were have been diverted from X/Y/Z, the same could have been done in summer 2017. A fix rolled out in fall 2017. Player enjoyment (perception/retention/boredom) would not have taken such a hit.

 

And that is what I meant. Some things take too unnecessary long (years) while they shouldn't.

A simple rebalancing of a tanks parameter for ample, rof/ammo pen/aim time/etc value change, to bring something out of a prower creeped state should not months. This can be analysed in a week+1, rolled out in two+1.

And I am not talking about some ridiculous value changes, as we have seen in some changes in the past 2 years,

 

Prepare yourselves, wall of text is coming! : 

 

But there's a lot of lists for a lot of people. There's not just 1 list for 1 group of people. A team is made up of different departments and workgroups. One is balancing another is developing another is mapping etc. 

 

And with the MM changes in mind, regardless of how it is received now, is it better than what was before? Did it fix the main issues of before? Has it introduced other issues not popular with the community? Yes and that's why they have been worked on and continue to be, but these changes are not short-term things they take months and years to address, hence why if you remember the 3-5-7 was explained as being developed as the best solution from testing taking place over a protracted period of time. Unfortunately, in gaming and gamers, there is a tendency for short memories on only remember recent negative things and ignoring all the negatives that went away. 

 

As far as I can see there was open recognition that 3-5-7 wasn't perfect but was an attempt to fix prior problems. The fact the MM changes were announced should highlight not that they're just starting work on it now because of all the feedback, but because there's a tonne of work already been done on various things and the team believe that there's a solution they hope will address more issues after a lot of work over a long period of time. 

 

Data analysis takes WAY longer than a week when you sit down and think about all the different data you would need to gather over the different parameters and then all the different sets of analyses required. For rolling out, assessing and solution generation, then you have testing, then you have an assessment of that testing, you will never get it right the first time, so you go back to evaluation and you repeat this until it gets somewhere. All the while keeping resources on other projects. It takes significantly more than 3 weeks to assess data over millions of players over numerous permutations of matchups and maps etc. Then coming up with solutions, testing and assessing and making sure none of those solutions break anything else and address the issue you intend to address. There needs to be an element of realistic expectation and knowledge of just how much work is involved in game development. 

 


Edited by eekeeboo, 07 January 2019 - 07:29 PM.


Somnorila #60 Posted 07 January 2019 - 07:43 PM

    Captain

  • Player
  • 57153 battles
  • 2,162
  • Member since:
    10-13-2012

View Posteekeeboo, on 07 January 2019 - 04:55 PM, said:

 

It's also important to remember the thought process takes place over the course of months for multiple players, servers and regions. Hopefully this will help provide some insight. 

 

All the signs point to other things. I said it and others have too. Latest post on the forum from some guy i don't remember was probably more on the money than anyone until now. He said that we shouldn't bother to get upset, play or go away because WG is basically going full speed ahead behind their marketing team. The holiday boxes were two times in a row now and both times they made bank. From all the players, the ones who buy stuff are already full with goodies and there is not much left for them to feel attracted to buy. So it's reasonable to think that WG will never balance or fix anything because from their perspective nothing is broken. The mess is by design. Flood of premium tanks and new branches in a different form. So it's not something to be amazed when they say that the "special" ammo "fix" will come in a way which will support even more spam of expensive ammo, or premium account changes to make it more appealing, or creating new hooks in the form of bonds. First you got better equipment, it will come with some tanks and later probably even the ability to buy bonds directly from shop.

The game is dead. There is no game. Only thing that remains is just a big business. You can avoid, lie or redirect attention but people are not blind, we got plenty of insight.


Edited by Somnorila, 07 January 2019 - 07:48 PM.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users