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I'm starting to believe that tin foil hat is real.


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zukimik #1 Posted 06 January 2019 - 03:23 PM

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 I recently 3 mark a tier 7 tank (VK 30.02 (D)) and i only got 44% W/R in it, i'm starting to wonder if this is actually real, How in the hell is this even possible, Even the name suggest a very good game play, it says "Mark of EXCELLENCE", no matter what I've done it was always defeat, and this is not a singular case, i have a similar situation with other tanks too, There are tanks in which WG simply wont let you win no matter what. I wonder what else i can do to improve that tank W/R because as far as i can see 3 marking it won't help, i achieved everything that's achievable in that tank and the W/R is still as bad as possible. I have never but never had a better W/R in it from the first battle to the last, it somehow stuck at 44% W/R and i'm 100% that this is not because of me, simply the game wont let me improve the win ratio in it.

 I know, most of you will blame me from different reasons, like camping the red line and so on, i don't care, the guys say the you can 3 mark a tank by camping red line never marked a tank, the DMG alone is not enough, you need to spot, detrack and so on, 50% DMG and 50% assistance.

 My simple question is, let's suppose that i have only played that tank on my account the W/R overall would have been 44% and if you see me on the battlefield you will call me: "Red Zombie, Tomato, Go play Barbie, Go back to tier 2, Mongol, Monkie and so on", I'm right ? and i still 3 mark that tank which anyone knows is not that easy but i will still be a very bad player. I have checked quite a few players having 3 marks of excellence on different tanks and tiers and none but none of them have W/R under 55%. 

 I even look at some other players and i found out that although some players play this particular tank being with more than 30% worse than me on all stats on that tank and they still have over 50% W/R, this makes me wonder is this so called skill based game even fair afterall ? I don't think so, in my opinion this game have less and less in common with skill. I'm not saying that i'm a good player because i'm not, but 3 marking a tier 7 tank in 150 battles and have only 44% W/R  make me think way further than i would like to think.
  
 Take a look for instance this player "crazy2109" He has 54% W/R in his tank and he performed with %30 less than me in this tank, WHY ?

   On the left is crazy2019 performance and right my performance, the difference says everything.

 

comparare.png
 

I also attached print screens with my tank performance.
 

caca.png


Edited by zukimik, 06 January 2019 - 03:27 PM.


barison1 #2 Posted 06 January 2019 - 03:27 PM

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winrate can fluctuate alot you know, while i was grinding 3moe on type64 i had like 30-40% winrate till 70 games while doing pretty good dmg/spots

ApocalypseSquad #3 Posted 06 January 2019 - 03:32 PM

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MoE are like Wn8.  You can play to farm them, or you can play to win.  They are not necessarily the same thing.

 

Good players can of course do both.



zukimik #4 Posted 06 January 2019 - 03:37 PM

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View PostApocalypseSquad, on 06 January 2019 - 02:32 PM, said:

MoE are like Wn8.  You can play to farm them, or you can play to win.  They are not necessarily the same thing.

 

Good players can of course do both.

 

I'm not agree with you, I didn't care about 3 mark and less interested in marking this random stupid tank, it just happened, i just 2 mark it in 81 battles and i noticed that i only got 43% W/R in it, they i said to myself let me try to 3 mark it maybe i will improve it and guess what it didn't happened, although i still continue to play it as good as before, the think is that i never think to mark this crappy tank because is a crappy tank, i just wanted to improve my W/R in it, so i exclusively played for wining, marking it was a secondary effect.

Darky1029 #5 Posted 06 January 2019 - 03:46 PM

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Some days you just cant get a win. It simply be like that sometimes.

Honestly, a rather close lossing game is alot better for MOE than a quick win, because you get to stat pad more.

After a while the wr evens out.

 

 


Edited by Darky1029, 06 January 2019 - 03:47 PM.


Sirebellus #6 Posted 06 January 2019 - 04:15 PM

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View PostDarky1029, on 06 January 2019 - 03:46 PM, said:

 

 

How long have you been saving this screenshot for ?
It's been a while since Tier 3 tanks played in T5 games... T3 has never been in the 3/5/7 template matchmaking brought in with patch 9.18 and that was April 2017

Signal11th #7 Posted 06 January 2019 - 04:17 PM

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3 marking has 0 to do with WR. as long as you get the expected you will three mark the tank irrespective of how many games you win or lose.

Edited by signal11th, 06 January 2019 - 04:18 PM.


The_Salty_Kipper #8 Posted 06 January 2019 - 04:41 PM

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Before the trolls turn up.. 

 

I understand your way of thinking, I have tanks that I seem to do well in and others which whatever I do, my team seems to lose anyway.. Not as extreme as in your case but I get what you are saying.. 

 

Today I am having a bd session, and I can't figure out why either, what I noticed is that my initial games I fired a lot of shells but hit with very few.. it was rather frustrating, but I wanted to achieve 100% on my crew 1st skill so I 'tanked' on.. 

 

Now I am not sure if it has something to do with the crew skills, but currently I am at 84% and it doesn't seem to get better, I have noticed this before (confirmation bias) that when my crews are at around 82 -88% I have a bad run of games (like the 35-45% win type of session). 

 

My stats have been steady as my hit rates, but today.. it just doesn't seem to want to be normal.. I moved the crew to another tank with which I have done well with in the past (56% win rates etc) but same thing, either bad teams or more misses than hits.. 

 

The purists would call out 'tinfoiley' and I would have to agree, my cynical self however sometimes wonders if WG don't haver a system in place to tweak the RNG values.. of course they don.t but it makes you wonder.. 

 

My advice would be to 'admire' the 3 marks and move on to another tank, because getting stuck on such a problem will only lead to real frustration and more doubt in the future.. 

 

Bravo, for putting it on the forums, I, as many others often feel such frustration and I feel that this forum is the best place to vent it out, since your peers will understand you, they might troll you, or cal you an idiot, but EVERYBODY at some point goes through the same self doubt and tin foil hat moments, whether they like to admit it or not.. 

 

Main thing is not to dwell too much on it.. vent, rant, hate the game and then go back to normal.. 



Cobra6 #9 Posted 06 January 2019 - 04:46 PM

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The problem is that these metrics focus on doing "a lot" of damage, not on doing the "correct" damage.

 

Most matches doing the "correct" damage means you ensure the win by engaging the most dangerous enemy tanks which means you do 1-2 full tanks worth of damage which is enough to have your team win the match as they can focus on farming the easy targets everyone can damage.

 

Generally speaking you can get tons of damage with a low winratio or get a high winratio with good damage output. Only great players can get both in tandem as they focus on doing the important damage foremost and afterwards also are quick enough to do the farming at the end of the match on easy targets.

 

Cobra 6



zukimik #10 Posted 06 January 2019 - 04:51 PM

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View Postsignal11th, on 06 January 2019 - 03:17 PM, said:

3 marking has 0 to do with WR. as long as you get the expected you will three mark the tank irrespective of how many games you win or lose.

 

Man, 44% win ratio is AFK or a bot W/R, not a W/R for a players that 3 mark that thank, Right ? If would have played that tank for 150 battles as AFK i would probably get a better win ratio in it. 44% W/R in a 3 marked tank is not natural, 3 marks reflects how well you play that tank nothing else, and if i played that tank very well then why i can't win ? Take a look at the pictures i posted with the other guy "crazy2109" he struggle so hard in that tank, his performance is way lower than mine and still he manage to get get 54% W/R in it, by doing with at least 30% less performance than me, dude there is a difference of %10 between me and him at W/R ???????????

Edited by zukimik, 06 January 2019 - 04:52 PM.


unhappy_bunny #11 Posted 06 January 2019 - 05:07 PM

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View Postzukimik, on 06 January 2019 - 03:51 PM, said:

 

Man, 44% win ratio is AFK or a bot W/R, not a W/R for a players that 3 mark that thank, Right ? If would have played that tank for 150 battles as AFK i would probably get a better win ratio in it. 44% W/R in a 3 marked tank is not natural, 3 marks reflects how well you play that tank nothing else, and if i played that tank very well then why i can't win ? Take a look at the pictures i posted with the other guy "crazy2109" he struggle so hard in that tank, his performance is way lower than mine and still he manage to get get 54% W/R in it, by doing with at least 30% less performance than me, dude there is a difference of %10 between me and him at W/R ???????????

 

Ok, so explain how MoE's work.

Just what do you need to do to get them?

Read the info provided when you check in your Service Record, and think just what it is saying. It doesnt say anything about a certain w/r does it?



UrQuan #12 Posted 06 January 2019 - 05:14 PM

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To get to the core of it. Winning is about more then just doing most damage & assistance. With some tanks this is more noticeable then others. 

Yes, yadda yadda, chatty chatty; but I embody it in a way. I'm bad at chasing marks. Plenty of folks with worse WR then me got a ton more marks then me, not just 3 marks, but even 2 marks. Part is because of my limited playtime with other tanks, but even considering that, I have very few 3 marks (I only got 2; Stug III G & the KV-4) & not that many 2 marks on tanks I play often either.

In the one tank I actively chased 3 marks in (KV-4) I noticed you often land in situations where you have to decide between winning the match & maxing out your MoE rating. Due to my silly preference to win games, I often killed a good attempt at 3 marking it, because ceased doing damage in favour of covering a flank to prevent the enemy flanking, or simply just tank damage for the team instead of dishing it out.

Did got those 3 marks  in the end tho, on my terms, after nearly 5K games in it, so that felt awesome. Still does honestly.

 

In the end it is about how hard you want those 3 marks. If you just solely want 3 marks, then don't complain your WR suffers for it, because you will land in situations where you got to chose. And then you have to decide: do I want to win, or do I want that 3 mark. Preferably both ofc, but you cannot always have it all.



Amun_RA #13 Posted 06 January 2019 - 05:24 PM

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View PostCobra6, on 06 January 2019 - 03:46 PM, said:

The problem is that these metrics focus on doing "a lot" of damage, not on doing the "correct" damage.

 

Most matches doing the "correct" damage means you ensure the win by engaging the most dangerous enemy tanks which means you do 1-2 full tanks worth of damage which is enough to have your team win the match as they can focus on farming the easy targets everyone can damage.

 

Generally speaking you can get tons of damage with a low winratio or get a high winratio with good damage output. Only great players can get both in tandem as they focus on doing the important damage foremost and afterwards also are quick enough to do the farming at the end of the match on easy targets.

 

Cobra 6

 

This. 



zukimik #14 Posted 06 January 2019 - 05:27 PM

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View PostUrQuan, on 06 January 2019 - 04:14 PM, said:

To get to the core of it. Winning is about more then just doing most damage & assistance. With some tanks this is more noticeable then others. 

Yes, yadda yadda, chatty chatty; but I embody it in a way. I'm bad at chasing marks. Plenty of folks with worse WR then me got a ton more marks then me, not just 3 marks, but even 2 marks. Part is because of my limited playtime with other tanks, but even considering that, I have very few 3 marks (I only got 2; Stug III G & the KV-4) & not that many 2 marks on tanks I play often either.

In the one tank I actively chased 3 marks in (KV-4) I noticed you often land in situations where you have to decide between winning the match & maxing out your MoE rating. Due to my silly preference to win games, I often killed a good attempt at 3 marking it, because ceased doing damage in favour of covering a flank to prevent the enemy flanking, or simply just tank damage for the team instead of dishing it out.

Did got those 3 marks  in the end tho, on my terms, after nearly 5K games in it, so that felt awesome. Still does honestly.

 

In the end it is about how hard you want those 3 marks. If you just solely want 3 marks, then don't complain your WR suffers for it, because you will land in situations where you got to chose. And then you have to decide: do I want to win, or do I want that 3 mark. Preferably both ofc, but you cannot always have it all.

 

But still 44% W/R ???? this is a bot or AFK score and not an active one. I write earlier than i never chased 3 mark on this crappy tank, it simply happened to get 2 Moe and i noticed that i only won 43% of the games i played,  but my only goal is to win games and not loose them, i never ever chased a 2 or 3 mark tank ... i know is hard and i understand that marking a tank requires a lot of games playing same tank over and over and is boring as hell. I finished the experience for the next tank in the first 50 battles but i keep playing it because i wanted to improve the W/R in it, i keep playing this tank for a week daily and every day same result defeat after defeat, most of them at 2-15 and best at 5-15 in which i was the only one making these kills. If playing better doing over 98% DMG that ever been done in that tank by other players ... with an average of 2,14 vehicles spotted per game and so on almost 900 overall base experience wont bring you wins .. then i really dont understand what do you have to do to win in that particular tank, dude is freaking 44% not %50 .... 44% is a freaking AFK W/R score.

Edited by zukimik, 06 January 2019 - 05:28 PM.


Derethim #15 Posted 06 January 2019 - 05:33 PM

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If the hat isn't real, which it could be, because you never know and neither side has a way of proving it, i'd blame Wargaming's lack of complete tutorials.

This game needs a lenghty tutorial after wheeled vehicles are added - one that explains class roles, ricochets, etc. Or at least links you to the mechanics explanation videos from Wargaming, once you complete the class tutorial.

 

I took my Chi-Nu-Kai for a ride recently out of nostalgia and saw an artillery play like a TD. That wasn't a bot, just 49% winrate new player, who never got anyone to explain how the game works to him.

 

It's like as if you took a new job at a factory, but nobody explains to you what to do and nobody has told you what even your role in the production is. And yes, many employers do this, but it's just. Completely. Retarded.



zukimik #16 Posted 06 January 2019 - 05:33 PM

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View Postunhappy_bunny, on 06 January 2019 - 04:07 PM, said:

 

Ok, so explain how MoE's work.

Just what do you need to do to get them?

Read the info provided when you check in your Service Record, and think just what it is saying. It doesnt say anything about a certain w/r does it?

 

did you ever marked a tank or even 2 marks ? to see the requirements ? Try to do that and then come here and tell me about the marks, You have to be constant every single game you play .... one mistake and you will drop, you have to do a lot of spotting detraking and DMG and do it every single game for over 100 battles if you even try to mark it, im not an expert in marking tanks i have like 3 marked and like 30 or so with 2 marks from tier 5 to tier 10 but im telling you you have to play better and better if you want to mark them and this always brings you wins, playing better means more influence in the course of the game.

The_Salty_Kipper #17 Posted 06 January 2019 - 06:30 PM

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View PostCobra6, on 06 January 2019 - 04:46 PM, said:

The problem is that these metrics focus on doing "a lot" of damage, not on doing the "correct" damage.

 

Most matches doing the "correct" damage means you ensure the win by engaging the most dangerous enemy tanks which means you do 1-2 full tanks worth of damage which is enough to have your team win the match as they can focus on farming the easy targets everyone can damage.

 

Generally speaking you can get tons of damage with a low winratio or get a high winratio with good damage output. Only great players can get both in tandem as they focus on doing the important damage foremost and afterwards also are quick enough to do the farming at the end of the match on easy targets.

 

Cobra 6

 

Lol, mostly I see Blue red line snipers or 'sit-back-and-wait' hopers, waiting for the Greens, Yellows , Oranges and Reds to do the initial work for them, Blues that run off to the red line as soon as they feel that their side will be over-run and just try to farm end game damage (something which I have also started to do, can't beat em , join em ideology)!

 

Mostly I would try to support them or try to cover the flank which is most important, the worst ones are Bat Chats and AMXs, who run away (due to re-loading) and rarely come back to support you.. 

 

Getting 3 marks isn't easy and does require a certain amount of damage / assists per battle (constant) and therefore should also help towards a decent win ratio. 



unhappy_bunny #18 Posted 06 January 2019 - 07:04 PM

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View Postzukimik, on 06 January 2019 - 04:33 PM, said:

 

did you ever marked a tank or even 2 marks ? to see the requirements ? Try to do that and then come here and tell me about the marks, You have to be constant every single game you play .... one mistake and you will drop, you have to do a lot of spotting detraking and DMG and do it every single game for over 100 battles if you even try to mark it, im not an expert in marking tanks i have like 3 marked and like 30 or so with 2 marks from tier 5 to tier 10 but im telling you you have to play better and better if you want to mark them and this always brings you wins, playing better means more influence in the course of the game.

 

I have only 1 marked any tanks. I know what the requirement is. I was asking if you had read it, and if you had thought about what it means. If you think it means something different to what I think, then it is possible that one or maybe both of us have it wrong.

I gained a 1 mark on 2 tanks in consecutive games, both tanks had been unplayed for a couple of months, and those were the only battles I played in them. My w/r is not great and the MoE's came as a complete surprise. 

My understanding, based on the info from the Service Record, is that to gain a mark you need to perform better in that tank than x% of the players of that tank during the past 14 days. What the actual metric is, I dont know. Is it dmg, kills, xp? All I know is that I played 1 battle and got a mark without even trying for it. If I check my service record now, I don't come close to the requirement. 

 

The only way I can describe it is, if in the past 14 days only 100 players have played that tank, then I have to perform better than 65 of them. Easy if those 65 players are not very good, not so easy if those players are good to very good. If there are 1000 players playing that tank, then the target is to beat 650 of them, and so on. The more popular a tank is, then the harder it could be to get a mark if you are just an average player, and maybe, the less popular a tank, the better chance an average player has of marking it. 

 

What I will not do though, is to focus on getting a mark, as more often than not, any failure can make the game seem like a chore. I play to enjoy the game and while winning helps with the enjoyment, it is the playing of the game that matters the most, not things like marks.

 

I do not knock those that have marks. Anyone who marks their tanks, especially 3 marks, has put effort into it, has had to play consitently well, and has deserved the marks. I say well done. 



SuedKAT #19 Posted 06 January 2019 - 07:16 PM

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View PostThe_Salty_Kipper, on 06 January 2019 - 06:30 PM, said:

 

Lol, mostly I see Blue red line snipers or 'sit-back-and-wait' hopers, waiting for the Greens, Yellows , Oranges and Reds to do the initial work for them, Blues that run off to the red line as soon as they feel that their side will be over-run and just try to farm end game damage (something which I have also started to do, can't beat em , join em ideology)!

 

 

The thing is though that throwing your tank away for no reason when a flank is obviously lost serves no purpose, by not doing that you win more which is why you generally see a higher WR the better the player is, your gun is just as deadly even when you're on 1 HP.



Dorander #20 Posted 06 January 2019 - 07:41 PM

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View Postzukimik, on 06 January 2019 - 03:51 PM, said:

 

Man, 44% win ratio is AFK or a bot W/R, not a W/R for a players that 3 mark that thank, Right ? If would have played that tank for 150 battles as AFK i would probably get a better win ratio in it. 44% W/R in a 3 marked tank is not natural, 3 marks reflects how well you play that tank nothing else, and if i played that tank very well then why i can't win ? Take a look at the pictures i posted with the other guy "crazy2109" he struggle so hard in that tank, his performance is way lower than mine and still he manage to get get 54% W/R in it, by doing with at least 30% less performance than me, dude there is a difference of %10 between me and him at W/R ???????????

 

You keep "asking questions" on the assumption that if you keep repeating them everyone's going to confirm what you want to hear. Fact is what you experienced is probably rare, but not impossible.

 

How many battles did you play actually trying to mark this tank? Was it the full 150ish or was it far less and did you dust off an old tank you weren't doing so well in before?

 

We've just had the Christmas period which typically causes a population boost as a lot of people are off from work and want to enjoy the specials. This typically involves a lot of casual/average players, and the average winrate on the server is only around 48-49% typically. Pair that with the knowledge that the MoE system compares you to other players in a recent time period and it doesn't matter if you didn't happen to win if other people playing that tank were not winning either, or perhaps they were winning but weren't doing so well personally. Apparently you recently did very well compared to anyone else driving this particular tank.


Fact is there's 14 other players in your team that affect your winrate and while I'm not too familiar with the VK3002D, I've never heard anyone express its amazing ability to carry battles.






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