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TheJumpMaster #1 Posted 07 January 2019 - 04:47 PM

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Is it necessary and why?

 

Personally, I don't think that maps need to be perfectly balanced. If fact, I think that slight unbalance can make the matches interesting. Remove the rote game play and force innovative game play. Today's meta is"Heavies go there, TDs camp here, Arty play there".

 

I would like to see the lemming mindset be removed from the game play.



Frostilicus #2 Posted 07 January 2019 - 04:52 PM

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I think that balance could be a little more granular within a tier but as long as it doesn't account for the player it allows a degree of the freedom you desire, and I would agree with that

Hiisi #3 Posted 07 January 2019 - 05:01 PM

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Plays t67 and E25 and tells that wot should no be blanced...

eekeeboo #4 Posted 07 January 2019 - 05:22 PM

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The challenge any game company faces is to not have enough balance to keep things challenging and allow players to motivate, not challenge too much to be futile in frustration. But this is why games generally settle on a set demographic of players who enjoy certain levels of challenge. 

 

I personally enjoy a good grind and a level of frustration, though I will become somewhat annoyed I thrive on the sense of achievement and accomplishment when I've completed a set objective/goal. 



OIias_of_Sunhillow #5 Posted 07 January 2019 - 05:25 PM

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View Posteekeeboo, on 07 January 2019 - 04:22 PM, said:

I personally enjoy a good grind and a level of frustration, though I will become somewhat annoyed I thrive on the sense of achievement and accomplishment when I've completed a set objective/goal. 

 

 

You should marry, it's all there. Grinding, frustration, achievement, accomplishment. 

Careful though, there is a big danger of failed-platoons.   :teethhappy:



HaZardeur #6 Posted 07 January 2019 - 05:25 PM

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View Posteekeeboo, on 07 January 2019 - 05:22 PM, said:

The challenge any game company faces is to not have enough balance to keep things challenging and allow players to motivate, not challenge too much to be futile in frustration. But this is why games generally settle on a set demographic of players who enjoy certain levels of challenge. 

 

I personally enjoy a good grind and a level of frustration, though I will become somewhat annoyed I thrive on the sense of achievement and accomplishment when I've completed a set objective/goal. 

 

But then there are unbalanced maps like Mines Encounter were the race to the hill ( essential to victory ) is won by the north spawn every time because south spawn lights & meds have to cross water...

Noo_Noo #7 Posted 07 January 2019 - 05:28 PM

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View Posteekeeboo, on 07 January 2019 - 05:22 PM, said:

The challenge any game company faces is to not have enough balance to keep things challenging and allow players to motivate, not challenge too much to be futile in frustration. But this is why games generally settle on a set demographic of players who enjoy certain levels of challenge. 

 

I personally enjoy a good grind and a level of frustration, though I will become somewhat annoyed I thrive on the sense of achievement and accomplishment when I've completed a set objective/goal. 

 

But when you know the likely outcome of a game, or an engagement or similar due to the elements within the game that's pretty down heartening wouldn't you agree? 

For example a team with a platoon of Defenders. Genarelly if you're playing a tier 6 tank and you see this before the battle starts you have an idea of the result. Great if you can over come it but you know more than likely it's not going to end well. Even worse is during that game you come across that platoon. 

Yes there should be some imbalance but not at the extent that this game currently has and will continue to have without radical changes. And the proposed changes to premium ammo is, in my belief not the answer
16:29 Added after 1 minute

View PostHaZardeur, on 07 January 2019 - 05:25 PM, said:

 

But then there are unbalanced maps like Mines Encounter were the race to the hill ( essential to victory ) is won by the north spawn every time because south spawn lights & meds have to cross water...

 

Mountain pass is another where you can easily lose a tank from the South Spawn heading to the West brawling area. 

Derethim #8 Posted 07 January 2019 - 05:36 PM

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View PostTheJumpMaster, on 07 January 2019 - 04:47 PM, said:

Is it necessary and why?

 

Personally, I don't think that maps need to be perfectly balanced. If fact, I think that slight unbalance can make the matches interesting. Remove the rote game play and force innovative game play. Today's meta is"Heavies go there, TDs camp here, Arty play there".

 

I would like to see the lemming mindset be removed from the game play.

 

I understand what you mean - Company of Heroes 2 is balanced this way. The balance isn't perfect and symmetric to provide some challenge and niches.

 

But it's impossible to balance WoT this way for a number of reasons;

a) bad tank balance and people flocking towards what's best

b) matchmaker not based around skill, not even slightly - it's completely random, rarely resulting in a balanced match

c) small maps and too many people on them (Paris, Ensk, Himmel's, Tundra). This one is easy to fix tho - just introduce 10 or even 8 player matches.

 

If you can eliminate this, then maybe, just maybe, it won't be painful if you made the maps assymetric. But since Wargaming's map-making team can't even get symmetric maps right and they keep going back and forth between flat plains and bumpy fields, never changing the map's size and adding any new meaningful routes, I highly doubt it.



OIias_of_Sunhillow #9 Posted 07 January 2019 - 05:38 PM

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View PostDerethim, on 07 January 2019 - 04:36 PM, said:

 

c) small maps and too many people on them (Paris, Ensk, Himmel's, Tundra). This one is easy to fix tho - just introduce 10 or even 8 player matches.

 

 

 

 

That may come sooner rather than later, the way things are going.



eekeeboo #10 Posted 07 January 2019 - 05:45 PM

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View PostOIias_of_Sunhillow, on 07 January 2019 - 04:25 PM, said:

 

 

You should marry, it's all there. Grinding, frustration, achievement, accomplishment. 

Careful though, there is a big danger of failed-platoons.   :teethhappy:

 

  That's one way to look at it! 

 

View PostHaZardeur, on 07 January 2019 - 04:25 PM, said:

 

But then there are unbalanced maps like Mines Encounter were the race to the hill ( essential to victory ) is won by the north spawn every time because south spawn lights & meds have to cross water...

 

But that element of imbalance like asymmetrical game modes/maps is what encourages diversity in gameplay and challenge. You will find (if you look) on the WoWP forums etc I'm a huge proponent of asymmetrical things for the element of challenge. For those that spawn in the water, may I suggest you find the bush in the middle, it suddenly makes the North team nervous when they suddenly all get spotted driving forward.

 

View PostNoo_Noo, on 07 January 2019 - 04:28 PM, said:

 

But when you know the likely outcome of a game, or an engagement or similar due to the elements within the game that's pretty down heartening wouldn't you agree? 

For example a team with a platoon of Defenders. Genarelly if you're playing a tier 6 tank and you see this before the battle starts you have an idea of the result. Great if you can over come it but you know more than likely it's not going to end well. Even worse is during that game you come across that platoon. 

Yes there should be some imbalance but not at the extent that this game currently has and will continue to have without radical changes. And the proposed changes to premium ammo is, in my belief not the answer
16:29 Added after 1 minute

 

Mountain pass is another where you can easily lose a tank from the South Spawn heading to the West brawling area. 

 

You can have a strong idea on how things go, but that's the challenge, without it, you are essentially just going through the motions and not being challenged to improve or learn. 

 

 



Derethim #11 Posted 07 January 2019 - 05:47 PM

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View PostOIias_of_Sunhillow, on 07 January 2019 - 05:38 PM, said:

 

 

That may come sooner rather than later, the way things are going.

 

You mean the declining playerbase? Purely Wargaming's fault. New tanks feel like copies of each other, except for "unique" branches, where 1/4 of the whole tree feels like the exact same tank (the new wheeled vehicles, tier 7-10, Swedish TDs, french heavy autoloaders, the first 5 italian tanks, the list goes on...), bad balance, p2w premium tanks, 15:0 matches...

But I'd welcome 10 player matches on small maps. Maybe then they could FINNALY MAKE THE MATCHMAKING SKILL BASED.

Noo_Noo #12 Posted 07 January 2019 - 05:54 PM

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View Posteekeeboo, on 07 January 2019 - 05:45 PM, said:

 

You can have a strong idea on how things go, but that's the challenge, without it, you are essentially just going through the motions and not being challenged to improve or learn. 

 

 

I am trying to say that the gaps are too large. 

 

The E8 Sherman has no chance against a Defender yet you designed the Defender and put it in the game, and you continue to sell it when you feel the time is right. You created the Type 5 which is broken and still hasn't been fixed and yet propose changes to premium ammo which unless the Type 5 is also changed will make that tank even stronger. You out the OBJ 268 V4 in the game and then took over 6 months to tune it downward. These are all examples of where WG have simply failed to create a balnce that is workable. Not even but workable. 

Then of course there's arty.......................... :facepalm:

 

You are now proposing to rebalance some Tier 10 tanks. Isn't this the wrong way round? Should Tier 1 and 2 be balanced first and work from there? Doing things top down opens the gaps between tiers. They need closing if anything. 



eekeeboo #13 Posted 07 January 2019 - 06:01 PM

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View PostNoo_Noo, on 07 January 2019 - 04:54 PM, said:

 

I am trying to say that the gaps are too large. 

 

The E8 Sherman has no chance against a Defender yet you designed the Defender and put it in the game, and you continue to sell it when you feel the time is right. You created the Type 5 which is broken and still hasn't been fixed and yet propose changes to premium ammo which unless the Type 5 is also changed will make that tank even stronger. You out the OBJ 268 V4 in the game and then took over 6 months to tune it downward. These are all examples of where WG have simply failed to create a balnce that is workable. Not even but workable. 

Then of course there's arty.......................... :facepalm:

 

You are now proposing to rebalance some Tier 10 tanks. Isn't this the wrong way round? Should Tier 1 and 2 be balanced first and work from there? Doing things top down opens the gaps between tiers. They need closing if anything. 

 

The E8 doesn't just see the Defender and only the defender every game all the time. 

The Type 5 was awful pre-buffs, the Type 4, in particular, was a nightmare grind. 

You will always have OP and UP things, no matter the game, especially when you have the variety and age of a game like WoT. 

 

The proposition for rebalancing isn't just tier 10 tanks, it's the lines of those tier 10 tanks. 



pecopad #14 Posted 07 January 2019 - 06:05 PM

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View Posteekeeboo, on 07 January 2019 - 05:22 PM, said:

The challenge any game company faces is to not have enough balance to keep things challenging and allow players to motivate, not challenge too much to be futile in frustration. But this is why games generally settle on a set demographic of players who enjoy certain levels of challenge. 

 

I personally enjoy a good grind and a level of frustration, though I will become somewhat annoyed I thrive on the sense of achievement and accomplishment when I've completed a set objective/goal. 

 

+1, and although I like balanced skilled ladder games, slow paced and tactical, the reality is that most of the online population prefers stomping games and high K/D ratios.

 

That's why there are no balanced online games, we all like to kill noobs and farm easy damage.



Gkirmathal #15 Posted 07 January 2019 - 06:16 PM

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View Posteekeeboo, on 07 January 2019 - 05:01 PM, said:

 

The E8 doesn't just see the Defender and only the defender every game all the time. 

The Type 5 was awful pre-buffs, the Type 4, in particular, was a nightmare grind. 

You will always have OP and UP things, no matter the game, especially when you have the variety and age of a game like WoT. 

 

The proposition for rebalancing isn't just tier 10 tanks, it's the lines of those tier 10 tanks. 

 

The E8 is particular is old legacy content, only face lifted recently with the HD model reworks. Balance wise it has been power creeped, even before template mm and 3-5-7 priority change in 9.19. Same goes for the T-34-2, to name one clear example.

 

Although correct that any game always has UP/OP content.

But using that as an excuse for the increasing gulf in power creep, that has run rampant for several years, on content (legacy mostly) that has not been further adjusted in recent years to the product's ongoing evolution...my apologies to say so...is IMO a sad way to develop and maintain a gaming product.

Especially when having seen the focus shift majorly, in late 2016, toward premium content development.


Edited by Gkirmathal, 07 January 2019 - 06:17 PM.


LordMuffin #16 Posted 07 January 2019 - 06:17 PM

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All games should be balanced.
But balanced doesn't mean identical nor symmetrical.

pecopad #17 Posted 07 January 2019 - 06:20 PM

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View PostGkirmathal, on 07 January 2019 - 06:16 PM, said:

 

The E8 is particular is old legacy content, only face lifted recently with the HD model reworks. Balance wise it has been power creeped, even before template mm and 3-5-7 priority change in 9.19. Same goes for the T-34-2, to name one clear example.

 

Although correct that any game always has UP/OP content.

But using that as an excuse for the increasing gulf in power creep, that has run rampant for several years, on content (legacy mostly) that has not been further adjusted in recent years to the product's ongoing evolution...my apologies to say so...is IMO a sad way to develop and maintain a gaming product.

Especially when having seen the focus shift majorly, in late 2016, toward premium content development.

 

This is not a balanced/skill game, this is a grinding game.

 

Actually people should be proud on the bad tanks they have grinded, that truly shows the level of commitment to the game. Like in most of the grinding games, its not the most overpowered item that carries more panache, but the harder to get.

 

If we all stopped farming the turds and started focusing on the Op tanks, soon the OP tanks would stop being OP.


Edited by pecopad, 07 January 2019 - 06:23 PM.


Noo_Noo #18 Posted 07 January 2019 - 06:22 PM

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View Posteekeeboo, on 07 January 2019 - 06:01 PM, said:

 

The E8 doesn't just see the Defender and only the defender every game all the time. 

The Type 5 was awful pre-buffs, the Type 4, in particular, was a nightmare grind. 

You will always have OP and UP things, no matter the game, especially when you have the variety and age of a game like WoT. 

 

The proposition for rebalancing isn't just tier 10 tanks, it's the lines of those tier 10 tanks. 

 

Absolutely but I'll repeat things again. The gap is too large. There is no incentive for people to play the E8. They might as well buy a Defender and go with that. There has to be some encouragement for people to play every line, every vehicle  within the game even if its the next tank up the line or whatever. 

 

Lordmuffin has it right. Balanced but not symmetrical. We dont want identical tanks, we want opportunities, a chance. Room to develop, a chance to have that epic game. We don't want to drive round walloping everything in front of us. 

View Postpecopad, on 07 January 2019 - 06:20 PM, said:

 

This is not a balanced/skill game, this is a grinding game.

 

Actually people should be proud on the bad tanks they have grinded, that truly shows the level of commitment to the game. Like in most of the grinding games, its not the most overpowered item that carries more panache, but the harder to get.

 

Its not a pure grinding game though is it? Not when you can use your credit card.
 



pecopad #19 Posted 07 January 2019 - 06:29 PM

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View PostNoo_Noo, on 07 January 2019 - 06:22 PM, said:

 

Absolutely but I'll repeat things again. The gap is too large. There is no incentive for people to play the E8. They might as well buy a Defender and go with that. There has to be some encouragement for people to play every line, every vehicle  within the game even if its the next tank up the line or whatever. 

 

Lordmuffin has it right. Balanced but not symmetrical. We dont want identical tanks, we want opportunities, a chance. Room to develop, a chance to have that epic game. We don't want to drive round walloping everything in front of us. 

 

Its not a pure grinding game though is it? Not when you can use your credit card.
 

 

Well, I'm/was  a credit card user, and  let me tell you that they treat us very badly when compared to other games.

 

Actually they still treat WoT like a F2P game, while all the revenues come from paying customers, so stop giving away premium tanks and premium account days. If people want premium tanks, let them use the credit card.

 

Has a paying customer I felt abused when WG run marathons where only base experience counts, when they give the best premium tanks in marathons, but specially when they give away premium tier 10 tanks.



eekeeboo #20 Posted 07 January 2019 - 07:18 PM

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View PostGkirmathal, on 07 January 2019 - 05:16 PM, said:

 

The E8 is particular is old legacy content, only face lifted recently with the HD model reworks. Balance wise it has been power creeped, even before template mm and 3-5-7 priority change in 9.19. Same goes for the T-34-2, to name one clear example.

 

Although correct that any game always has UP/OP content.

But using that as an excuse for the increasing gulf in power creep, that has run rampant for several years, on content (legacy mostly) that has not been further adjusted in recent years to the product's ongoing evolution...my apologies to say so...is IMO a sad way to develop and maintain a gaming product.

Especially when having seen the focus shift majorly, in late 2016, toward premium content development.

 

The E8 was in response to someone comparing it with the defender and talking about balance. 

 

Power creep isn't the reason for having OP and UP content, it's part of the puzzle, it's a reason why things are slowly relegated to being less than optimal or under-performing. Others are because the game has evolved, but generally speaking, even the E8 is a more than effective tank at its tier, same as the Cromwell. Just as your own logic, power creep isn't the only thing to consider when balancing. Make everything 100% even (identical), people get bored. 

 

View PostNoo_Noo, on 07 January 2019 - 05:22 PM, said:

 

Absolutely but I'll repeat things again. The gap is too large. There is no incentive for people to play the E8. They might as well buy a Defender and go with that. There has to be some encouragement for people to play every line, every vehicle  within the game even if its the next tank up the line or whatever. 

 

Lordmuffin has it right. Balanced but not symmetrical. We dont want identical tanks, we want opportunities, a chance. Room to develop, a chance to have that epic game. We don't want to drive round walloping everything in front of us. 

 

Its not a pure grinding game though is it? Not when you can use your credit card.
 

 

But the gap is extreme, it's a tier 6 vs tier 8. You will never be 1 v 1 in that situation, even then you can track for your team. It's not just about killing the enemy tank, there's a lot more things you can do in a game to make your tank useful. People play tier 6s because they're fun, generally not too skill demanding and they're mobile. People will play whichever tank line they want for various reasons, the E8 is by far a pleasurable grind vs that of others, for many purely because it's an E8 and they don't care about the rest, they get to control an E8. 

 

You mention room to develop, that is what a majority of instances you have now, from flanking, tracking spotting and rotating on the map. If you are going head to head with a defender in an E8 by choice, you really need to consider the decision-making process that leads you to that point. 

 

Credit cards don't win games, if they do, I would be extremely surprised if people who play the game long enough genuinely believe that. 

 

 






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