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Sid447 #1 Posted 18 January 2019 - 01:20 PM

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Can somebody kindly explain why...

 

The Skorpion G with a 128mm gun has an average damage per shot of 490

Yet the SU-130PM with a gun 2mm larger in diameter has 520.

 

Another example is the difference between the 105mm L7 gun where the average DPS is 390

Yet the 120mm British gun on the Conqueror (15% bigger) is just 10 hit points better at 400.

?

 



Iron_Pwnage #2 Posted 18 January 2019 - 01:23 PM

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What a question ...

It's called 'Balancing' ...

This game is no simulator, the tanks have HP. No need for overboarding realism.

 



Dava_117 #3 Posted 18 January 2019 - 01:24 PM

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View PostSid447, on 18 January 2019 - 01:20 PM, said:

Can somebody kindly explain why...

 

The Skorpion G with a 128mm gun has an average damage per shot of 490

Yet the SU-130PM with a gun 2mm larger in diameter has 520.

 

Another example is the difference between the 105mm L7 gun where the average DPS is 390

Yet the 120mm British gun on the Conqueror (15% bigger) is just 10 hit points better at 400.

?

 

 

No one can tell this. Lately WG started to strongly separate DPS and caliber of the gun. 

Sid447 #4 Posted 18 January 2019 - 01:27 PM

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View PostIron_Pwnage, on 18 January 2019 - 02:23 PM, said:

What a question ...

It's called 'Balancing' ...

This game is no simulator, the tanks have HP. No need for overboarding realism.

 

 

I asked a simple enough question! Thanks for the manners.

DeadLecter #5 Posted 18 January 2019 - 01:34 PM

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Caliber and DPS are not related. T92 arty has a 240 MM gun and HE shells have 1300 damage. FV183 and FV4005 have 183 MM guns and HE shells do 1750 damage. And that 130 MM gun has 490 (IS-7, WZ 111 5A) and 520 (SU130 PM) damage. 122 MM guns have both 390 (IS-3) and 440 (Obj 430U) damage. So caliber is really irrelevant. This is all done for balancing purposes. 

SU 101 has two 122 MM guns. One has 390 alpha and the other has 440. The only real difference in caliber is for over matching. For example Caernarvon with 94 MM gun can overmatch 30 MM armor plates whereas Caernarvon AX with 84 MM gun can't. Other than that, caliber is totally irrelevant.


Edited by DeadLecter, 18 January 2019 - 01:54 PM.


1ucky #6 Posted 18 January 2019 - 01:40 PM

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For the same reason that some Russian 122mm guns hit for 390 average damage, while 120mm American ones hit for 400.

You can have a smaller caliber and hit harder than the larger one, no problem.

Like posts above said though, it's just balancing.

(On the other hand, you could also take into account the shells' flight speed and the type of ammo.)

 


Edited by 1ucky, 18 January 2019 - 01:41 PM.


Balc0ra #7 Posted 18 January 2019 - 01:41 PM

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View PostSid447, on 18 January 2019 - 01:20 PM, said:

Another example is the difference between the 105mm L7 gun where the average DPS is 390

Yet the 120mm British gun on the Conqueror (15% bigger) is just 10 hit points better at 400.

?

 

 

Alpha is usually put in groups based on caliber. But also based on what tiers the gun is on. Thus the alpha difference in those groups differs little at times. 122 is a perfect example. 390 on tier 6 to 8. But on tier 9+ it 122mm usually means 440 alpha. Thus why the 120mm on the British tanks have 390. It's not mounted on any mid tiers, it's tier 9+ gun. Same with the 105mm. On US tanks it's a 320 alpha gun as it's a main gun on tier 7 tanks. But on the UK tree, it doesn't appear until tier 8 on TD's and tier 9 on meds/HT's. Thus it gets 390 alpha, not 320 like on the T29. For balance reasons. 

 


Edited by Balc0ra, 18 January 2019 - 01:42 PM.


WoT_RU_Doing #8 Posted 18 January 2019 - 02:00 PM

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As iron_pwnage pointed out, this is not a simulator and balancing is the over-riding factor in the game, along with keeping the WG employees employed so that we can continue to play it. But, in real life, if calibre was the only factor to consider, a 90mm WW2 gun would be no less damaging than a current one, and arms manufacturers would be out of a job. In reality, advances in chemistry and metallurgy mean that HE compounds and propellants are more efficient, so you pack more bang into the same volume, and the guns can take the higher pressures. This means more kinetic energy for standard rounds, and higher explosive power for HE.

eldrak #9 Posted 18 January 2019 - 03:26 PM

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View PostWoT_RU_Doing, on 18 January 2019 - 01:00 PM, said:

As iron_pwnage pointed out, this is not a simulator and balancing is the over-riding factor in the game, along with keeping the WG employees employed so that we can continue to play it. But, in real life, if calibre was the only factor to consider, a 90mm WW2 gun would be no less damaging than a current one, and arms manufacturers would be out of a job. In reality, advances in chemistry and metallurgy mean that HE compounds and propellants are more efficient, so you pack more bang into the same volume, and the guns can take the higher pressures. This means more kinetic energy for standard rounds, and higher explosive power for HE.

 

Actually the HE compounds are usually the same. Even the physical grenades might be the same. Usually just the fuzes are changed to improve safety. Improvements are mainly in actually hitting where you aim. Other shell types have changed more, yes.

 

For op:

DPM: damage/shell * 60/reload time

Alpha: damage/shell

 



TungstenHitman #10 Posted 18 January 2019 - 03:39 PM

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Well it's just a game so take it with a pinch of salt but IRL you can have same caliber and same projectile but different potential damage. How? Barrel length is one way, the longer the barrel, the more time the explosive force driving the projectile has acting on it thus that projectile with travel at a higher velocity than a shorter barrel firing the same round so has more energy in it so will do more damage or at least have more penetration capability. The other option to make a same caliber gun firing exactly the same projectile to do more damage is to have more propellant i.e. a bigger casing with more boom in it. For example, the German Tiger 1 and the German King Tiger both shot and 88mm projectile but the King Tiger had both a longer barrel and also a bigger casing driving that projectile so it would pen and hit harder than the Tiger 1. You can also have longer projectile which is going to be heavier and do more damage since it will have more energy but still be the same caliber.

 

Here's an image to make the point much simpler, at least in regards the shell casing having more bang. I'm not sure what guns these are from, I'd guess some A.K. variants. They all have the same projectile but you can see what's driving them is very much different. Same caliber but guess which one will do more damage.

 



Baldrickk #11 Posted 18 January 2019 - 03:48 PM

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View PostSid447, on 18 January 2019 - 01:20 PM, said:

Can somebody kindly explain why...

 

The Skorpion G with a 128mm gun has an average damage per shot of 490

Yet the SU-130PM with a gun 2mm larger in diameter has 520.

 

Another example is the difference between the 105mm L7 gun where the average DPS is 390

Yet the 120mm British gun on the Conqueror (15% bigger) is just 10 hit points better at 400.

?

 

 

510 damage, so just 20 higher, and that's with the prem round.  it's only 440 with the standard round.

nakkipeppu #12 Posted 18 January 2019 - 03:53 PM

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Even though pure damage is not connected with caliber, caliber dictates the overmatching, and how far the round travels inside the tank (= how many modules it can damage). Also it's possible that those tanks deal different amount of module damage, because it's separately adjusted for the ammo.

WoT_RU_Doing #13 Posted 18 January 2019 - 04:09 PM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 18 January 2019 - 02:39 PM, said:

Well it's just a game so take it with a pinch of salt but IRL you can have same caliber and same projectile but different potential damage. How? Barrel length is one way, the longer the barrel, the more time the explosive force driving the projectile has acting on it thus that projectile with travel at a higher velocity than a shorter barrel firing the same round so has more energy in it so will do more damage or at least have more penetration capability. The other option to make a same caliber gun firing exactly the same projectile to do more damage is to have more propellant i.e. a bigger casing with more boom in it. For example, the German Tiger 1 and the German King Tiger both shot and 88mm projectile but the King Tiger had both a longer barrel and also a bigger casing driving that projectile so it would pen and hit harder than the Tiger 1. You can also have longer projectile which is going to be heavier and do more damage since it will have more energy but still be the same caliber.

 

Here's an image to make the point much simpler, at least in regards the shell casing having more bang. I'm not sure what guns these are from, I'd guess some A.K. variants. They all have the same projectile but you can see what's driving them is very much different. Same caliber but guess which one will do more damage.

 

 

Are you sure they are all Russian? Not entirely sure, but looking at them I'd say that they are, from left to right, 7.62 Winchester Magnum , either British .303" or Russian 7.62x54, 7.62x51 NATO, Russian 7.62x39 SHORT (i.e.original AK round)

Edited by WoT_RU_Doing, 18 January 2019 - 04:09 PM.


Simeon85 #14 Posted 18 January 2019 - 04:15 PM

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View PostBaldrickk, on 18 January 2019 - 03:48 PM, said:

 

510 damage, so just 20 higher, and that's with the prem round.  it's only 440 with the standard round.

 

No he's talking about the new Russian premium TD from the marathon that has 520 alpha.

 

--------------------

 

Alpha for a long time has not had much relation to do with calibre, its more linked to balance and tier.  Like the ARL has a 105mm that does 300 damage on tier 6, but 105mm on tier 9 and 10 do 390. 

 

WG were also talking and have previously tested 120mms doing 440 I believe at higher tiers and the new CW reward T95/Chieftain has a 120mm with 440 alpha. 



Sid447 #15 Posted 18 January 2019 - 04:39 PM

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View PostSimeon85, on 18 January 2019 - 05:15 PM, said:

 

No he's talking about the new Russian premium TD from the marathon that has 520 alpha.

 

--------------------

 

Alpha for a long time has not had much relation to do with calibre, its more linked to balance and tier.  Like the ARL has a 105mm that does 300 damage on tier 6, but 105mm on tier 9 and 10 do 390. 

 

WG were also talking and have previously tested 120mms doing 440 I believe at higher tiers and the new CW reward T95/Chieftain has a 120mm with 440 alpha. 

 

Both TD's are the same tier.

Both Conqueror and Cent AX are too!

15:45 Added after 5 minutes

View PostWoT_RU_Doing, on 18 January 2019 - 05:09 PM, said:

 

Are you sure they are all Russian? Not entirely sure, but looking at them I'd say that they are, from left to right, 7.62 Winchester Magnum , either British .303" or Russian 7.62x54, 7.62x51 NATO, Russian 7.62x39 SHORT (i.e.original AK round)

 

At an educated guess, the first round on the left is a 30.06 Springfield .30 calibre 1906 intro (7.62x63)

https://en.wikipedia...-06_Springfield

If I had a dollar for every one of those I have fired, I'd be happy.))



Simeon85 #16 Posted 18 January 2019 - 04:45 PM

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View PostSid447, on 18 January 2019 - 04:39 PM, said:

 

Both TD's are the same tier.

Both Conqueror and Cent AX are too!

 

I said balance and tier, in those cases its just balance. 

Cobra6 #17 Posted 18 January 2019 - 04:54 PM

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View PostSimeon85, on 18 January 2019 - 03:15 PM, said:

 

Alpha for a long time has not had much relation to do with calibre, its more linked to balance and tier.  Like the ARL has a 105mm that does 300 damage on tier 6, but 105mm on tier 9 and 10 do 390. 

 

WG were also talking and have previously tested 120mms doing 440 I believe at higher tiers and the new CW reward T95/Chieftain has a 120mm with 440 alpha. 

 

And the 100mm on the T-44 doing 250 damage while the 100mm on the Obj.140 does 320.

 

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DangerMouse #18 Posted 18 January 2019 - 04:57 PM

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It should be tied in to kinetic energy, shell size and velocity, therefore we should have reduced damage over range, but as many have said this is not a simulation, tanks don't really have hit points and most pens would be one shot kills.

 

DM



AliceUnchained #19 Posted 18 January 2019 - 07:47 PM

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View Posteldrak, on 18 January 2019 - 03:26 PM, said:

Alpha: damage/shell

 

Calling the object hitting the vehicle a shell is inaccurate unless it contains an explosive filler or some other filler. Else it should be called shot. So perhaps let's stick with Damage Per Shot Or Shell, or DPSOS. Alpha was introduced at some point many years ago, and simply stuck. But denoting average damage which applies each and every time with something meaning 'first' till date makes little sense to me.






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