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Premium Ammo Rebalancing

Premium Ammo Special Ammo Gold Ammo

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Sergeant_Antaro_Chronus #1 Posted 19 January 2019 - 12:48 AM

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The way WG WoT dev team plans to "rebalance" the "gold" ammo is...concerning, or am I over thinking it?

 

I mean reducing the damage output of "gold" ammo or I should start calling it Special does look nice on paper and with great potential. If you are not capable of doing the same amount of damage with special ammo but with regular your DPM would be higher, theoretically more and more players would be inclined to not to fire special ammo. Am I correct here?

 

BUT! 

 

What happens with tanks that have low damage rolls, like the Tiger I or Cromwell? What happens with tanks that have tons of amrour like the Japanese Sumo tanks or the Defender? What happens with tanks that have low damage and low penetration even on special ammo?

 

From what I can tell with the special ammo nerf pretty much all heavy tanks will get buffed in armour and HP (especially the Type and Maus) and tanks with lots of armour like the American tier 10 TD E3 and when you have to face higher tier tanks that you can't compete with in the current meta of the game with regular ammo but even special doesn't guaranty 100% damage...you would be forced to use even more special ammo because you will have to balance the lower damage output since you'd have to fire more shots to take down the opponent.

 

Also what will happen with tanks that have low damage like the Matilda IV that does 55 dps? Will it drop to a measly 38 to 41 dps??? How on earth will it be able to deal with tanks like the O-I that has 950 HP? With 40 dps (assuming all shots penetrate and you do consistently 41 dps not low roll RNG crap, again assuming they will only nerf the damage by 25% and not 30%) you will need 24 rounds or 36,800 credits...not that with 55 dps is any better (16 shots or 25,600 credits)….but you get some idea here, you will need to spend +8 rounds or 12,800 credits or 32 gold.

 

From what I can tell this nerf will only benefit WG bank account...there should other ways to change it, but not like this in my opinion.



SABAOTH #2 Posted 19 January 2019 - 01:42 AM

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Probably you should try to learn weakspots and with regular ammo you'll be fine.

 

I reserve gold only for Japanese derps as their weakspots are the thickness of the frontal armor of a Maus.

I am concerned that for so many players is completely inconceivable to play without gold. That's explain the damage panels where you get constant golden showers from tier 6 to 10. :coin:

 

By the way, why is everyone so scared of the Maus? I can deal with it without gold just fine. Armor should be part of the game like speed and mobility or camo are for other class. Imagine if you load a premium ammo and medium tanks instantly lose their mobility and camo. Gold is pay to win, and like many predicted for years, it has finally become a plague in the game. :coin::coin:

 

I am pretty happy that they will deal with it. :girl:



SuedKAT #3 Posted 19 January 2019 - 02:11 AM

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View PostSABAOTH, on 19 January 2019 - 01:42 AM, said:

By the way, why is everyone so scared of the Maus? I can deal with it without gold just fine. 

I'm currently grinding the M26 Pershing, it got 190 standard pen and have rather meh mobility, on a bad pen roll it can't pen a Maus side armor even at a perfect angle, so I'm basically forced to shot premium ammo to stand any chance what so ever and while doing so I still got 500 less DPM and half the HP. Imagine how fun I will have when they nerf my DPM with 25-30%, I would need about half the average time a normal WoT match runs for to kill the Maus assuming all my shots pen.



CurseOfDeath #4 Posted 19 January 2019 - 02:26 AM

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The special ammo finnaly will force players to learn to properly play the game otherwise they will have to to play with a 25-30% less DPM handicap.

 

Its a good change, because even if they will try get used to that handicap they will not live enough to shoot as many shells as they calculated initially that they would. For example 2 Maus meet 1 shoot gold other one doesnt. One will hit in average for 347 while the other one will maintain its 490 average damage per shot. Therefore knowing weakspots will actually make sense as you will have to deal with armoured target now and not just spam gold and clear the way.

 

For vehicles with very low penetration values i believe thus can be adjusted and not be left untouched. They can be buffed in furthe updated.

 

Its all fine. Probably the best fix in years. We are slowly going back on track and in case some are worried about armoured vehicles, they should reconsider their gameplay and tactics. Coopolas and lower frontal plates are still weakspot and can still be dealt with.

 

Regarding the super heavies there are tank destroyers out there that can take them out. Everyone complain that this is a buff to heavy tanks but in reality tank destroyers benefit a lot as well, as they will finnaly have a role on the battlefield and possibly could see more play in clan wars as well and also will represent a oasis for other players who cant adapt to play in the first months post special ammo rebalance. 290-310 penetration power can still tear though super heavies frontal plates, the same as their gold ammo from their meds and heavies is doing right now. I personnaly when i started playing wot years ago i started with tank destroyers (i played all TD lines) just because i didnt wanted to care about weak spots and it worked very well for me. I started to play other vehicles classes after personal missions were introduced and i needed heavies meds lights and an artilery as well.

 

 

 



SuedKAT #5 Posted 19 January 2019 - 05:50 AM

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View PostCurseOfDeath, on 19 January 2019 - 02:26 AM, said:

The special ammo finnaly will force players to learn to properly play the game otherwise they will have to to play with a 25-30% less DPM handicap.

 

Its a good change, because even if they will try get used to that handicap they will not live enough to shoot as many shells as they calculated initially that they would. For example 2 Maus meet 1 shoot gold other one doesnt. One will hit in average for 347 while the other one will maintain its 490 average damage per shot. Therefore knowing weakspots will actually make sense as you will have to deal with armoured target now and not just spam gold and clear the way.

 

For vehicles with very low penetration values i believe thus can be adjusted and not be left untouched. They can be buffed in furthe updated.

 

Its all fine. Probably the best fix in years. We are slowly going back on track and in case some are worried about armoured vehicles, they should reconsider their gameplay and tactics. Coopolas and lower frontal plates are still weakspot and can still be dealt with.

 

Regarding the super heavies there are tank destroyers out there that can take them out. Everyone complain that this is a buff to heavy tanks but in reality tank destroyers benefit a lot as well, as they will finnaly have a role on the battlefield and possibly could see more play in clan wars as well and also will represent a oasis for other players who cant adapt to play in the first months post special ammo rebalance. 290-310 penetration power can still tear though super heavies frontal plates, the same as their gold ammo from their meds and heavies is doing right now. I personnaly when i started playing wot years ago i started with tank destroyers (i played all TD lines) just because i didnt wanted to care about weak spots and it worked very well for me. I started to play other vehicles classes after personal missions were introduced and i needed heavies meds lights and an artilery as well.

 

 

 

 

Firstly the game now is a very different game than the one you started playing in 2011, back then you had MM that favored the top tier tank immensely, then later on that got tweaked to the -+2 MM we got today, however since then armored have been buffed all around and weakspots have been removed. Back then it was a valid tactic to aim for weakspots, these days most of them have been removed with the argument that you should flank which on a majority of maps is impossible. There is no surprise that most of the more well armored tanks are the ones that perform the best and the ones with weakspots and/or paper armor are the ones performing the worst, that's not down to premium ammo, that's down to overall balance and map design. 

 

The only thing this "fix" will achieve is buffing the tanks that already perform the best and are the most "noob friendly" while nerfing everything else apart from arty, they are addressing the symptoms, not the actual cause. There is a reason people shot premium ammo these days and didn't back then, it was a valid choice to shot standard ammo back then, these days it isn't, especially if you consider bottom/mid tier tanks as well as tanks that ain't elite and thus don't have their top gun. How fun do you think all the tier 8 USSR and Chinese tanks that got a stock 175 pen will have, most of them can't even pen their own tank reliably.

 

Many are leaving the game now since they feel useless, they feel that they can't contribute when being bottom tier, stock and/or having a bad crew, granting those players 25-30% less DPM is beyond idiotic and will only result in one thing, frustration and people leaving the game even faster, it's rather obvious when you think about it for more than 2 seconds.


Edited by SuedKAT, 19 January 2019 - 05:51 AM.


malachi6 #6 Posted 19 January 2019 - 07:32 AM

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Just a thought.   Would not an xp and credit boost for hitting weak spots with standard ammo incentivise people?  I do not it would not be a coding nightmare as all the variables are already used by the game engine.

mystikro #7 Posted 19 January 2019 - 08:36 AM

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View PostSuedKAT, on 19 January 2019 - 03:11 AM, said:

I'm currently grinding the M26 Pershing, it got 190 standard pen and have rather meh mobility, on a bad pen roll it can't pen a Maus side armor even at a perfect angle, so I'm basically forced to shot premium ammo to stand any chance what so ever and while doing so I still got 500 less DPM and half the HP. Imagine how fun I will have when they nerf my DPM with 25-30%, I would need about half the average time a normal WoT match runs for to kill the Maus assuming all my shots pen.

 

Then you engage something else and wait until the Maus is left without support. And even then, you might need to take a chance and get hit so that you can distract the target so that the team can catch up. It is a game, not IRL so have some balls. We used to do it like that in the old days. Someone had the courage and did the push so that the team can move up. Nowadays wankers just kemp bush and spam gold and that's why the game has lost any tactical gameplay.

Edited by mystikro, 19 January 2019 - 08:37 AM.


Jigabachi #8 Posted 19 January 2019 - 08:59 AM

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Of course it's a double-edged sword. But that's how WG "fixes" things. They change one part of a problem and leave the rest untouched, creating one huge mess.

Mr_Burrows #9 Posted 19 January 2019 - 09:04 AM

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View PostCurseOfDeath, on 19 January 2019 - 02:26 AM, said:

The special ammo finnaly will force players to learn to properly play the game otherwise they will have to to play with a 25-30% less DPM handicap.

 

Its a good change, because even if they will try get used to that handicap they will not live enough to shoot as many shells as they calculated initially that they would. For example 2 Maus meet 1 shoot gold other one doesnt. One will hit in average for 347 while the other one will maintain its 490 average damage per shot. Therefore knowing weakspots will actually make sense as you will have to deal with armoured target now and not just spam gold and clear the way.

 

For vehicles with very low penetration values i believe thus can be adjusted and not be left untouched. They can be buffed in furthe updated.

 

Its all fine. Probably the best fix in years. We are slowly going back on track and in case some are worried about armoured vehicles, they should reconsider their gameplay and tactics. Coopolas and lower frontal plates are still weakspot and can still be dealt with.

 

Regarding the super heavies there are tank destroyers out there that can take them out. Everyone complain that this is a buff to heavy tanks but in reality tank destroyers benefit a lot as well, as they will finnaly have a role on the battlefield and possibly could see more play in clan wars as well and also will represent a oasis for other players who cant adapt to play in the first months post special ammo rebalance. 290-310 penetration power can still tear though super heavies frontal plates, the same as their gold ammo from their meds and heavies is doing right now. I personnaly when i started playing wot years ago i started with tank destroyers (i played all TD lines) just because i didnt wanted to care about weak spots and it worked very well for me. I started to play other vehicles classes after personal missions were introduced and i needed heavies meds lights and an artilery as well.

 

 

 

 

Good for Bob and Steve in their heavy tanks - bad for everyone else in any other class. This due to overbuffed armor, +-2 MM and corridor maps. 

 

 



SuedKAT #10 Posted 19 January 2019 - 09:09 AM

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View Postmystikro, on 19 January 2019 - 08:36 AM, said:

 

Then you engage something else and wait until the Maus is left without support. And even then, you might need to take a chance and get hit so that you can distract the target so that the team can catch up. It is a game, not IRL so have some balls. We used to do it like that in the old days. Someone had the courage and did the push so that the team can move up. Nowadays wankers just kemp bush and spam gold and that's why the game has lost any tactical gameplay.

 

Yeah those were the days, you had decent MM, weakspots and maps that allowed you to do that, shame that's not the case anymore.

SABAOTH #11 Posted 19 January 2019 - 09:26 AM

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View PostSuedKAT, on 19 January 2019 - 02:11 AM, said:

I'm currently grinding the M26 Pershing, it got 190 standard pen and have rather meh mobility, on a bad pen roll it can't pen a Maus side armor even at a perfect angle, so I'm basically forced to shot premium ammo to stand any chance what so ever and while doing so I still got 500 less DPM and half the HP. Imagine how fun I will have when they nerf my DPM with 25-30%, I would need about half the average time a normal WoT match runs for to kill the Maus assuming all my shots pen.

 

I know right? But think about it and it goes down to "Ï cannot autopen the most armored tier 10 superheavy vehicle with my tier 8 medium if I have a low roll".

Well, imho it is not supposed to happen, nor to beat a batchat in trading, a t 100 lt in manouverability or deathstar in alpha. :girl:

 

Premium ammo is pay to win. That's the hard truth. And that's why the majority of bad / average players spam full gold tanks:coin:

 

It's okay to have it in the game if it's a different working ammo, then it adds to strategic choices when to fire it or not, but right now it's just a better ammo that costs more credits and you can shoot if you have deep pockets.

 

By the way you can still outplay a Maus in a pershing if you manage to isolate him and you can kill him with regular ammo, that thing is pretty bad in dealing with anything that is somewhat agile. :girl:

 



LordMuffin #12 Posted 19 January 2019 - 09:47 AM

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View PostSABAOTH, on 19 January 2019 - 01:42 AM, said:

Probably you should try to learn weakspots and with regular ammo you'll be fine.

 

I reserve gold only for Japanese derps as their weakspots are the thickness of the frontal armor of a Maus.

I am concerned that for so many players is completely inconceivable to play without gold. That's explain the damage panels where you get constant golden showers from tier 6 to 10. :coin:

 

By the way, why is everyone so scared of the Maus? I can deal with it without gold just fine. Armor should be part of the game like speed and mobility or camo are for other class. Imagine if you load a premium ammo and medium tanks instantly lose their mobility and camo. Gold is pay to win, and like many predicted for years, it has finally become a plague in the game. :coin::coin:

 

I am pretty happy that they will deal with it. :girl:

Armour is already part of the game, the problem is that it is a to big part of the game, and it will become an even larger part after this change. 

08:49 Added after 2 minutes

View PostCurseOfDeath, on 19 January 2019 - 02:26 AM, said:

The special ammo finnaly will force players to learn to properly play the game otherwise they will have to to play with a 25-30% less DPM handicap.

 

Its a good change, because even if they will try get used to that handicap they will not live enough to shoot as many shells as they calculated initially that they would. For example 2 Maus meet 1 shoot gold other one doesnt. One will hit in average for 347 while the other one will maintain its 490 average damage per shot. Therefore knowing weakspots will actually make sense as you will have to deal with armoured target now and not just spam gold and clear the way.

 

For vehicles with very low penetration values i believe thus can be adjusted and not be left untouched. They can be buffed in furthe updated.

 

Its all fine. Probably the best fix in years. We are slowly going back on track and in case some are worried about armoured vehicles, they should reconsider their gameplay and tactics. Coopolas and lower frontal plates are still weakspot and can still be dealt with.

 

Regarding the super heavies there are tank destroyers out there that can take them out. Everyone complain that this is a buff to heavy tanks but in reality tank destroyers benefit a lot as well, as they will finnaly have a role on the battlefield and possibly could see more play in clan wars as well and also will represent a oasis for other players who cant adapt to play in the first months post special ammo rebalance. 290-310 penetration power can still tear though super heavies frontal plates, the same as their gold ammo from their meds and heavies is doing right now. I personnaly when i started playing wot years ago i started with tank destroyers (i played all TD lines) just because i didnt wanted to care about weak spots and it worked very well for me. I started to play other vehicles classes after personal missions were introduced and i needed heavies meds lights and an artilery as well.

 

 

 

If 2 Mauses meet, 1 shoot premium and the other doesn't. 

The one shooting premium ammo will win unless both Mauses are played by bad players.

 

The so called weakspot of the Maus is thick enough with some angling to withstand any regular ammo if the player knows what to do.


Edited by LordMuffin, 19 January 2019 - 09:55 AM.


SuedKAT #13 Posted 19 January 2019 - 09:50 AM

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View PostSABAOTH, on 19 January 2019 - 09:26 AM, said:

 

I know right? But think about it and it goes down to "Ï cannot autopen the most armored tier 10 superheavy vehicle with my tier 8 medium if I have a low roll".

Well, imho it is not supposed to happen, nor to beat a batchat in trading, a t 100 lt in manouverability or deathstar in alpha. :girl:

 

Premium ammo is pay to win. That's the hard truth. And that's why the majority of bad / average players spam full gold tanks:coin:

 

It's okay to have it in the game if it's a different working ammo, then it adds to strategic choices when to fire it or not, but right now it's just a better ammo that costs more credits and you can shoot if you have deep pockets.

 

By the way you can still outplay a Maus in a pershing if you manage to isolate him and you can kill him with regular ammo, that thing is pretty bad in dealing with anything that is somewhat agile. :girl:

 

 

Yes you can't auto pen the side of one of the most armored tier 10 super HT's with the standard ammunition from a tier 8 MT, or at least the M26 Pershing and that's fine in a perfect scenario. In reality the M26 Pershing needs to fight above his weight, as do all tier 8 tanks in a tier 10 match, at the moment they are already at a severe disadvantage, lowering their DPM with 25-30% won't make that any better nor will it improve gameplay at all, the top tier tanks will be able to dominate even more, thus making it even more frustrating to be bottom tier and god forbid using a stock gun. Why should you play anything other than tier 10 or grind any tank when your punished with 25-30% less DPM on top of all your other disadvantages in anything other than a top or same tier match-up. 

 

Sure it's annoying to be in a slow armored tank when you get penned all the time with premium ammo, but as we saw on the sandbox server, buffing armor leaves the game in an even more broken state than it's already is. In the past when tanks like the KV-4 were considered an armored behemoth and tanks had weakspots, people shot way less premium ammo, why, simple, standard ammo was a viable choice back then, now WG have thought their player-base that if you want to succeed in the endless bottom tier matches and corridor maps you need to fire premium ammo, then they buffed armor to battle that resulting in people shooting even more premium ammo.   

 

Applying the "fix" to premium ammo that WG have suggested is just addressing the symtoms, not the cause and in the end it will just result in a more broken game than before, I'm all with ya that premium spam is annoying, but breaking the game any further is just stupid.



LordMuffin #14 Posted 19 January 2019 - 09:53 AM

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View Postmalachi6, on 19 January 2019 - 07:32 AM, said:

Just a thought.   Would not an xp and credit boost for hitting weak spots with standard ammo incentivise people?  I do not it would not be a coding nightmare as all the variables are already used by the game engine.

If only weakspots still existed...

 

The only tanks with weakspots are tanks that haven't been changed/introduced for the last like 3+ years 



Dr_Blackshark #15 Posted 19 January 2019 - 01:29 PM

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This is the developers' best addition to the game. So you complain that you can't stand a chance vs a 2 tiers higher heavy tank? Well truth is.....you shouldn't be able to match a 2 tiers higher tank without any finesse....and with some tactical sense you don't even have to shoot any gold ammo in the game. As for me, i'm not the best player, i have a yellow wn8. My ammo loadout on avarage is about 5-6 prem ammo+4-5 HE nad the rest is the normal. And although i have some prem round i very rarely fire any....let's say 1-2/10 games.

I would like to see the reroll goldspammer statpadders' faceafter 1.4. 



LordMuffin #16 Posted 19 January 2019 - 03:18 PM

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View PostDr_Blackshark, on 19 January 2019 - 01:29 PM, said:

This is the developers' best addition to the game. So you complain that you can't stand a chance vs a 2 tiers higher heavy tank? Well truth is.....you shouldn't be able to match a 2 tiers higher tank without any finesse....and with some tactical sense you don't even have to shoot any gold ammo in the game. As for me, i'm not the best player, i have a yellow wn8. My ammo loadout on avarage is about 5-6 prem ammo+4-5 HE nad the rest is the normal. And although i have some prem round i very rarely fire any....let's say 1-2/10 games.

I would like to see the reroll goldspammer statpadders' faceafter 1.4. 

Finesse isn't allowed on most maps.

 

And making the bottom tiered spectators each battle is not really a good direction imo.

 

A good addition would be to reduce the price of premium ammo to match that of regulation ammo coupled with reduced damage?

 

Add weakspots that are penetratable by the enemies the tank sees in battle.

Different size for different protection. Say a cupola at T8 could be ~120mm, lfp at T8 ~160-170mm (effective and unangled).

While ufp/turret front and other well protected areas are 200-220mm+ for heavily armoured tanks (effective and unangled).

 

Remove Japanese heavies.

 

Make maps which doesn't force frontal engagements and have close to zero possibilities of something that isn't a frontal engagement. 


Edited by LordMuffin, 19 January 2019 - 03:23 PM.


wEight_Tanker #17 Posted 19 January 2019 - 03:23 PM

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Well my thought would be... "Don't have balls to aim for weakspots/flank/find another target/find an ambush position? You can pen and damage, but less". I think It's fair... though, special shells should cost less and on the bright side, you still do damage when you manage to penetrate.

SABAOTH #18 Posted 19 January 2019 - 04:48 PM

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View PostLordMuffin, on 19 January 2019 - 03:18 PM, said:

Finesse isn't allowed on most maps.

 

And making the bottom tiered spectators each battle is not really a good direction imo.

 

A good addition would be to reduce the price of premium ammo to match that of regulation ammo coupled with reduced damage?

 

Add weakspots that are penetratable by the enemies the tank sees in battle.

Different size for different protection. Say a cupola at T8 could be ~120mm, lfp at T8 ~160-170mm (effective and unangled).

While ufp/turret front and other well protected areas are 200-220mm+ for heavily armoured tanks (effective and unangled).

 

Remove Japanese heavies.

 

Make maps which doesn't force frontal engagements and have close to zero possibilities of something that isn't a frontal engagement. 

 

I agree to remove the horrible 3 5 7 and rework maps in a better way, there must be cover but different accesses than a linear frontal only would allow flanking.

 

I don't think japs are going to be removed but those weakspots should be actually made weaker.

 

With those exception most frontal armor are fine as long as same tier got chance to penetrate them unangled. To nerf too much armor is a bad idea, unless you all agree to make russian medium's turrets 100 mm effective, and nerf the mobility of all meds then we are fine and balanced. (I strongly doubt anyone would like this though):coin:



sgtYester #19 Posted 19 January 2019 - 05:11 PM

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Can we all call gold ammo for what it really is?

 

not special ammo but pay to win ammo. or pay to get wn8 ammo.  

 

not special ammo, that is offensive to all the ppl out there with special needs.



OMG_Abaddon #20 Posted 19 January 2019 - 05:48 PM

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View PostSergeant_Antaro_Chronus, on 19 January 2019 - 12:48 AM, said:

What happens with tanks that have low damage rolls, like the Tiger I or Cromwell? What happens with tanks that have tons of amrour like the Japanese Sumo tanks or the Defender? What happens with tanks that have low damage and low penetration even on special ammo?

 

They already said that in tandem with gold nerf they are also studying tank rebalance (like Type 4/5 heavy will receive particular nerfs), buffing standard ammo for certain tanks, and so on. Armadillo tanks? No idea about armor changes.

 

Oh I forgot, my suggestion for jap sumo tanks is that they take a few stats away from heavy tanks and put them on mediums. OP heavy line but BS medium line.


Edited by OMG_Abaddon, 19 January 2019 - 05:50 PM.






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