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It's 2019 it's time to rebalance SPGS

Rebalancing

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Element6 #181 Posted 24 January 2019 - 11:44 PM

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View Postmalowany, on 24 January 2019 - 11:28 PM, said:

You are allowed to think whatever you please is annoying, the case is about a certain mechanic providing only annoyance. Detracking is anoying at times, but I can see what it brings to the table tactically and how it enchances gameplay in one way or another, I never were able to see what SPGs bring gameplay wise other than annoyance.

 

You say heavies are annoying I say they bring enough to the game to outweight any potential annoyance that comes with it, no one has ever managed to convicne me that the case is same for SPGs.

I do think whatever I want, but I seldom talk about it since trying to argue for a certain change around here is akin to smashing your head against a brick wall for years. The developers are unlikely to listen to it unelss they think it might be beneficial for most players, or to the economy. If neither is served they will probably just disregard it altogether.

 

My least played class is by far SPGs, so you can say that the ratio between taking hits from them and dealing hits from them is probably something like 300:1. I still like to have them in my battles. Getting hit or killed by one is no different on the annoyance scale than getting hit or damaged by any other tank from any class. Sometimes they get me and allow the enemy to advance, sometimes they get one of the enemies and allow me to advance, or get out if I need to run away from a fallen flank etc. 

 

They bring randomness to my battles, which to me is a good thing, since I do not really think of this game as something tactical or much competitive, it is an arcade shooter with upgrades where I come to have fun. And so far the fun has greatly outweighed the frustration, even though these things go in waves along with streaks of muppet teams where I lose a lot of battles but perform on a decent level, and too good teams where I win a lot of battles but don't get to do much because the other players are better than me. 

 

I wouldn't be coming back if the game was more frustrating than fun.

 

After reading years of SPG complaints I understand why some players are annoyed by them, but I don't expect the same people to be able to fathom how I can feel the way I do about this issue. 



tajj7 #182 Posted 25 January 2019 - 10:01 AM

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View PostTom_Deekanarry, on 24 January 2019 - 07:31 PM, said:

If arty is going to be nerfed then so should heavy tanks, they are just as annoying!

 

Never really get this argument. 

 

Of course there are issues with some heavies, but they are OP over armoured stuff, it's not an issue with the whole class. 

 

Whereas all arty are problematic on all tiers and negatively impact gameplay. 

 

 

View PostSomnorila, on 24 January 2019 - 08:42 PM, said:

 

Not really. Happened many times when i got in my e5 for example on Prohorovka and was relieved that there is no arty. Players change how they fight, the position they take and how aggressive when there is arty or not. So a mild problem for a LT or MT with arty in the match could just as easy turn in to a nightmare without arty. Sure that arty will target MT's and LT's too but i think i would rather be careful of arty than try to keep a position against a heavy suited for that same position.

Open maps without arty and you more than likely will see at the end HT's with big numbers for spotting.

 

Slower heavies are practically useless on Prohk or Malinovka with 2-3 arty, if you are a high rated XVM player and you get a 3 arty Prohk in a slow heavy you might as well quit out of battle as it'll save you time from the inevitable.

 

Prohk with no arty is a good example of how the games works properly and more tactically. On more open maps even OP and over armoured stuff we have on tier 10 like Type 5s, Super Conquerors etc. are more balanced because Prohk allows things like flanking, cross fire, long range support fire, view range, camo etc. to all have a role in the game. 

 

Yes heavies will spot but why is that an issue, meds and lights still have a substantial camo advantage and can if played well dictate the engagement.

 

Prohk with no arty pretty much allows all classes to have a role in the game if played well.

 

Prohk with 2-3 arty sees most heavy players camping the redline because if they get spotted they end up just getting constantly crapped on by arty.

 

And of course that means when half of each team is camping, the only spotted tanks are the lights and mediums, so they end up having a miserable game as well. 

 

The presence of multiple arty on Prohk can literally switch that map from one of the best in the game to one of the worst. 



Dr_Oolen #183 Posted 25 January 2019 - 10:46 AM

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Speaking of prokhorovka, from my experience no arty on prokhorovka can be as annoying as prokhorovka with 2 clickers. But obviously not as aids as prokhorovka with 3 ebolas. In general i find that 1 clicker on prokhorovka is the optimum for gameplay. With 3 clickers its literally unplayable, everyone except for maybe 3 tanks camps, so the few guys who actually try to play the game only get punished for trying and get sent to garage within 3 minutes of pointlessly trying to spot all the campers. Two clickers are already getting super annoying and make the game noticeably more campy and punishing for people that actually play the game. One clicker on prokhorovka doesnt cause massive campfest, but at the same time prevents a complete freeze/stalemate/rollover which often happens in games with no artas at all.

 

At least from my experience games on prok without clickers generally evolve into 2 possible states:

- one team is completely inept and camps anyway, while 1-2 of their tanks are actually trying and doing spotting, but since the team is being useless, all their effort is wasted (in this case the arta actually gives some support and counterbalances the otherwise slow onesided bleeding of HP which is extremely frustrating for the guys who actually try)

- both teams are kinda even and the game is decided by who has the more op hulldown top tier tank, in this case the clicker helps balance out the op tank that would otherwise just poke ridgeline  without any danger to itself

 

So imo 1 clicker on prokho generally is actually best for gameplay.

 

 

Then on topic of clickers and their rebalance.

 

Im still of the opinion that arty HE mechanics should be changed so that HE simply cannot penetrate (or can pen, but doesnt suddenly boost dmg massively). As far as im concerned paper tanks are already useless and i dont see why they should get punished more by arty HE on top of all their shortcomings. Thus id change the alpha of clickers to the general damage they do anyway on non pens, but then get rid of the halving of damage on a non pen. So, say, if 1200 alpha clicker does, on a non pen on a paper tank, 550 dmg, then id just give said clicker 600 alpha and penetration on the HE shell would simply serve to negate said amount of nominal armor, after which the nominal armor hit would get subtracted and dmg would be dealt. So something like:

 

600 alpha clicker with 60 pen hits 20 mm of armor -> it does 600-20+60 = 640 dmg

600 alpha clicker with 60 pen hits 250 mm of armor and  -> it does 600-250+60 = 410 dmg

 

After that id just limit clickers to max 1 per team. And id be super happy with that arty compared to what we have now.

 

EDIT: in case 1 clicker max is a complete no-go for WG, but 2 clickers max are acceptable, on top of the HE changes id just nerf maximum range a clicker can click from some 1000-1300 meters to something like 700-1000 meters and make that an actual balance parameter for clickers, but in practice it should simply mean that if the clickers dont move and dont use brain, there would be areas of the map that cant be clicked. I would then compensate clickers by generally buffing their mobility so that they can reposition more easily, and id buff their HP by some 50-75% so that they can get shot and survive more often than not (and so that they can be farmed for more damage as a reward to those who get to kill them). Maybe throw some minor gun handling buffs on top of that.


Edited by Dr_Oolen, 25 January 2019 - 10:55 AM.


Somnorila #184 Posted 25 January 2019 - 11:45 AM

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View Posttajj7, on 25 January 2019 - 10:01 AM, said:

 

Never really get this argument. 

 

Of course there are issues with some heavies, but they are OP over armoured stuff, it's not an issue with the whole class. 

 

Whereas all arty are problematic on all tiers and negatively impact gameplay. 

 

 

 

Slower heavies are practically useless on Prohk or Malinovka with 2-3 arty, if you are a high rated XVM player and you get a 3 arty Prohk in a slow heavy you might as well quit out of battle as it'll save you time from the inevitable.

 

Prohk with no arty is a good example of how the games works properly and more tactically. On more open maps even OP and over armoured stuff we have on tier 10 like Type 5s, Super Conquerors etc. are more balanced because Prohk allows things like flanking, cross fire, long range support fire, view range, camo etc. to all have a role in the game. 

 

Yes heavies will spot but why is that an issue, meds and lights still have a substantial camo advantage and can if played well dictate the engagement.

 

Prohk with no arty pretty much allows all classes to have a role in the game if played well.

 

Prohk with 2-3 arty sees most heavy players camping the redline because if they get spotted they end up just getting constantly crapped on by arty.

 

And of course that means when half of each team is camping, the only spotted tanks are the lights and mediums, so they end up having a miserable game as well. 

 

The presence of multiple arty on Prohk can literally switch that map from one of the best in the game to one of the worst. 

 

Let's agree to disagree. I prefer matches with arty. Not 3 aties per team but at least one. The job of a heavy is not to spot but to tank damage with armor and hp witch otherwise would be going towards weaker tanks regarding ability to survive incoming fire. Being arty magnet is their job. LT's spot. MT's flank and hunt spotters. TD's deal damage from stealth. And arty damages everyone all around the map. Arties have the ability to shoot from very high distances thus they can be very flexible adding firepower where it is needed and can suppress enemies in strong positions. That's why arty must have high rate of fire and big splash or big damage to be able to have a big enough impact on the enemy morale or survivability when targeted. And of course that's why all thanks should be rebalanced and many probably reassigned to their proper class with a specific game role attached.

tajj7 #185 Posted 25 January 2019 - 11:51 AM

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View PostSomnorila, on 25 January 2019 - 10:45 AM, said:

 

Let's agree to disagree. I prefer matches with arty. Not 3 aties per team but at least one. The job of a heavy is not to spot but to tank damage with armor and hp witch otherwise would be going towards weaker tanks regarding ability to survive incoming fire. Being arty magnet is their job. LT's spot. MT's flank and hunt spotters. TD's deal damage from stealth. And arty damages everyone all around the map. Arties have the ability to shoot from very high distances thus they can be very flexible adding firepower where it is needed and can suppress enemies in strong positions. That's why arty must have high rate of fire and big splash or big damage to be able to have a big enough impact on the enemy morale or survivability when targeted. And of course that's why all thanks should be rebalanced and many probably reassigned to their proper class with a specific game role attached.

 

Yeh I don't like that, I don't life defined roles or class specific roles or whatever.

 

I like the player to have choices, tanks to have strengths and weaknesses, that the player then uses to decide what actions and role for the team he is going to play based on the map, the line ups etc. 

 

I don't like the heavies go here, mediums go here etc., lights don;t do damage mentality, nor do I like the way some tanks are extremely balanced to try to force players to play one way and take away options from them and the ability to think.

 

Also arty generally doesn't go for heavies, that is the issue I described, lots of bad players play arty and since the nerfs to pen and damage they specifically chase around lightly armoured targets hoping for full damage pens, rather than support their team against the heavies they are struggling with.

 

It's why I think HE pen should be set to zero and HE mechanics changed so it doesn't matter what tank you hit damage is generally the same. 



SaintMaddenus #186 Posted 25 January 2019 - 11:53 AM

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  1. Perks/Skills for crew.    Reveal arty.  Have a radio operator skill be able to have a chance to “triangulate” the location of the  arty after the tank has been hit.  It’s no less realistic than 6th sense.  It can be cumulative so it is more probably for each time someone is hit by same arty.   This will help reduce LEHF focusing one tank and perma tracking them in particular.     Same with Bishop.    They don’t do enough damage to heavies to kill them without a number of shots.  (maybe also useable with td’s but to a lessor degree as tds are supposed to be able to camp snipe, though I don’t like that mechanic )
  2. Resilience.   Reduce arty stun time for crew members, might have to be a commander skill to affect all crew.   Quick question,  I don’t use small medkits much, do they remove stun from the one crew that it is used on?   If so each crew member could have this as a skill.
  3. Penalise team damage HEAVILY.  If a player gets no exp or credits from a battle they WILL play more carefully.
  4. Drowning.   Drowning isn’t limited to arty but they tend to have the greatest opportunity  to do so as they  tend to be at the back of a map.  ANY tank that drowns in the last 30 seconds of a battle should be penalised so exp and credits are reduced to zero.     This is not actually difficult to manage and can be done automatically.
  5. The reporting structure is too limited.   We used to have more options, we need them again.  We have to use unsportsmanlike for all forms of abuse, its just too general.  I know Team damage is suppose to pick up automatically but there is clear abuse.   Players know they can put two shots in a battle into a friendly but wont go blue if they tend to do more damage to enemy.   Some of the “better” players use this to “punish” players that don’t play the way they want them to.  We also need a report for players that are not very good.  You don’t have to do anything with it but it might prevent people being reported for “bots” just because they are rubbish.  So your “bot” report is actually more useful to you as WG
  6. Siege mode as per Swedish TD’s  Make arty unable to fire unless deployed.  From T6+
  7. Max 1 per side per battle.

 

From the arty thread



Somnorila #187 Posted 25 January 2019 - 12:02 PM

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View PostDr_Oolen, on 25 January 2019 - 10:46 AM, said:

Speaking of prokhorovka, from my experience no arty on prokhorovka can be as annoying as prokhorovka with 2 clickers. But obviously not as aids as prokhorovka with 3 ebolas. In general i find that 1 clicker on prokhorovka is the optimum for gameplay. With 3 clickers its literally unplayable, everyone except for maybe 3 tanks camps, so the few guys who actually try to play the game only get punished for trying and get sent to garage within 3 minutes of pointlessly trying to spot all the campers. Two clickers are already getting super annoying and make the game noticeably more campy and punishing for people that actually play the game. One clicker on prokhorovka doesnt cause massive campfest, but at the same time prevents a complete freeze/stalemate/rollover which often happens in games with no artas at all.

 

At least from my experience games on prok without clickers generally evolve into 2 possible states:

- one team is completely inept and camps anyway, while 1-2 of their tanks are actually trying and doing spotting, but since the team is being useless, all their effort is wasted (in this case the arta actually gives some support and counterbalances the otherwise slow onesided bleeding of HP which is extremely frustrating for the guys who actually try)

- both teams are kinda even and the game is decided by who has the more op hulldown top tier tank, in this case the clicker helps balance out the op tank that would otherwise just poke ridgeline  without any danger to itself

 

So imo 1 clicker on prokho generally is actually best for gameplay.

 

 

Then on topic of clickers and their rebalance.

 

Im still of the opinion that arty HE mechanics should be changed so that HE simply cannot penetrate (or can pen, but doesnt suddenly boost dmg massively). As far as im concerned paper tanks are already useless and i dont see why they should get punished more by arty HE on top of all their shortcomings. Thus id change the alpha of clickers to the general damage they do anyway on non pens, but then get rid of the halving of damage on a non pen. So, say, if 1200 alpha clicker does, on a non pen on a paper tank, 550 dmg, then id just give said clicker 600 alpha and penetration on the HE shell would simply serve to negate said amount of nominal armor, after which the nominal armor hit would get subtracted and dmg would be dealt. So something like:

 

600 alpha clicker with 60 pen hits 20 mm of armor -> it does 600-20+60 = 640 dmg

600 alpha clicker with 60 pen hits 250 mm of armor and  -> it does 600-250+60 = 410 dmg

 

After that id just limit clickers to max 1 per team. And id be super happy with that arty compared to what we have now.

 

EDIT: in case 1 clicker max is a complete no-go for WG, but 2 clickers max are acceptable, on top of the HE changes id just nerf maximum range a clicker can click from some 1000-1300 meters to something like 700-1000 meters and make that an actual balance parameter for clickers, but in practice it should simply mean that if the clickers dont move and dont use brain, there would be areas of the map that cant be clicked. I would then compensate clickers by generally buffing their mobility so that they can reposition more easily, and id buff their HP by some 50-75% so that they can get shot and survive more often than not (and so that they can be farmed for more damage as a reward to those who get to kill them). Maybe throw some minor gun handling buffs on top of that.

 

Removing penetration from arty HE it's basically nerfing damage. And it's what you have now as penetrations are very rare.

Big splash low damage would mean that arty would have fast reload. This could also work with stun or not depending on the dpm. I like the idea that if you load slow then the stun shouldn't be removed by med kit immediately and there should be a 3 sec buffer where your tank is completely out of your hands, a zombie sitting doing nothing because every crew member is dazed. this would seem fair to me but also kind of annoying to be on the receiving side. So i'd say is a no go.

So best approach is still the one where arty deals damage. Loads slow, has bad accuracy and aim time, has somewhat low splash but when it hits the enemy is deleted. Being all random the bulk of the damage will mostly be from splashes rather than direct hits. 

Regarding shells in general i would prefer if they will not deal more than one module damage or crew member per shot. If you hit the track only the track is damaged, if you hit the side in to the ammo rack only that is damaged. This should refer to everything He as well. Also repairing with kit a module or crew member, that specific part should be indestructible for like 5s. so if you get track damage and use kit you can't be re tracked immediately leaving you time to get in cover. The game is not realistic anyway and i think this would sit pretty well with the arcade approach WoT has regarding it's gameplay.

11:10 Added after 8 minutes

View Posttajj7, on 25 January 2019 - 11:51 AM, said:

 

Yeh I don't like that, I don't life defined roles or class specific roles or whatever.

 

I like the player to have choices, tanks to have strengths and weaknesses, that the player then uses to decide what actions and role for the team he is going to play based on the map, the line ups etc. 

 

You still have options. According to how you want to play you chose the tank before battle. But you have to stick with it as you will not have the ability to take other roles.

If you want to be able to take whatever role you see fit during the battle then it means that the tanks can't be different. They all should be basically the same thing. I don't really see the point on having classes let lone this many tanks as we currently have. One class main battle tank and do whatever you want on whatever map you get on.

On the other hand having different and set roles has a bit more sense in at least having tank classes. Also it means that maps are very important thus they should be balanced in accordance with MM so that teams be equal regarding the efficiency of classes in a set battle.



PhooBar #188 Posted 25 January 2019 - 07:58 PM

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WoT pop-quiz #18

 

Choosing to play a free game whist continuously complaining about it for over 6 years  is ______________ (pick one)

1. Masochistic

2. Witless

3. Proof of mental defect

4. All of the above

 



Element6 #189 Posted 25 January 2019 - 08:43 PM

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5. An activity where the positives seem to outweigh the negatives, and enjoyment is to be had?

 

If that is not the case I'd put a dime on addictiveness.



Somnorila #190 Posted 26 January 2019 - 11:27 AM

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View PostPhooBar, on 25 January 2019 - 07:58 PM, said:

WoT pop-quiz #18

 

Choosing to play a free game whist continuously complaining about it for over 6 years  is ______________ (pick one)

1. Masochistic

2. Witless

3. Proof of mental defect

4. All of the above

 

 

View PostElement6, on 25 January 2019 - 08:43 PM, said:

5. An activity where the positives seem to outweigh the negatives, and enjoyment is to be had?

 

If that is not the case I'd put a dime on addictiveness.

 

5.None of your business.

Because fighting through addiction starts with acknowledging you have a problem. We don't do that here, we're all healthy so shut up. And WoT is a kid friendly game so WG wouldn't enable and encourage addictive behavior. OK?!







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