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Thoughts about the german "assault gun" tanks.

moms spaghetti StuH 42 Stupa 43/Brummbar

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Derethim #1 Posted 29 January 2019 - 03:06 AM

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So, why are these two not ingame yet anyways?

I know Sturmtiger is broken beyond belief and was tested and I don't want it ingame and there's no way it would ever be implemented, but I'd love to see at least these two implemented.

 

StuH is basically already ingame, albeit the earlier version - it's basically any Stug with a howitzer. But for some reason, there's no such option for the Stug IV to mount the 105mm of the Stug III G. Why is this?

I don't think it's worth the work of adding another tank, so why not give Stug IV owners another gun option? It's historical and not broken and at all.

 

Now, for the Brummbar - it has the same SiG model, that is on the Bison or the Sturmpanzer III. It's not near KV-2 power.

With the armor layout, I imagine it being extremely thick in the  front, at least for tier VI, with a small paper weakspot where the machine gun port is, like 70mm effective so even a duck can pen it. And a small cupola with even less armor. Plus, weaker armor on the flat boxy area under the gun. Otherwise imeprvious from the front [maybe 250mm effective?], it sounds like a fun-to-play casemate TD for use in a corridor. 

 

Give it 370 view range, only 500 m/s muzzle velocity ... that sort of thing. The sides wouldn't nearly have to be paper, maybe even 120mm thick, plus add the sideskirts and it would be awesome in city-maps, while not being op as hell. Rear would still be like 20mm :trollface:

 

I'd imagine the pen values would be abysmal, to compensate for everything else, but not TOO terible. Maybe like a 130mm of pen on HEAT, 95 on AP and 80 on HE? That's lower than the KV-2, while still balanced enough, so it's not underpowered for a derp. Since it's german it could have better dispersion values, like 0,52 or 0,55 [KV-2 has 0,6] and shorter aiming time by 0.5 seconds - 3.5s compared to KV-2's 4s.

 

Lastly, I'd imagine it having low top speed of maybe 32 max, so it reaches the speed quickly, but stays low on average.

 

There was also a proposed version with an 88mm gun, which never existed, altough it could be a fun option to have it. I think it was the one used on the tier 6 and 7 Voll Kettens and the Tiger's historical gun.

I'd love if it was for bonds with the 88 as an option as a tier VI tank.


Edited by Derethim, 29 January 2019 - 03:07 AM.


HassenderZerhacker #2 Posted 29 January 2019 - 03:22 AM

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View PostDerethim, on 29 January 2019 - 03:06 AM, said:

So, why are these two not ingame yet anyways?

I know Sturmtiger is broken beyond belief and was tested and I don't want it ingame and there's no way it would ever be implemented, but I'd love to see at least these two implemented.

 

StuH is basically already ingame, albeit the earlier version - it's basically any Stug with a howitzer. But for some reason, there's no such option for the Stug IV to mount the 105mm of the Stug III G. Why is this?

I don't think it's worth the work of adding another tank, so why not give Stug IV owners another gun option? It's historical and not broken and at all.

 

Now, for the Brummbar - it has the same SiG model, that is on the Bison or the Sturmpanzer III. It's not near KV-2 power.

With the armor layout, I imagine it being extremely thick in the  front, at least for tier VI, with a small paper weakspot where the machine gun port is, like 70mm effective so even a duck can pen it. And a small cupola with even less armor. Plus, weaker armor on the flat boxy area under the gun. Otherwise imeprvious from the front [maybe 250mm effective?], it sounds like a fun-to-play casemate TD for use in a corridor. 

 

Give it 370 view range, only 500 m/s muzzle velocity ... that sort of thing. The sides wouldn't nearly have to be paper, maybe even 120mm thick, plus add the sideskirts and it would be awesome in city-maps, while not being op as hell. Rear would still be like 20mm :trollface:

 

I'd imagine the pen values would be abysmal, to compensate for everything else, but not TOO terible. Maybe like a 130mm of pen on HEAT, 95 on AP and 80 on HE? That's lower than the KV-2, while still balanced enough, so it's not underpowered for a derp. Since it's german it could have better dispersion values, like 0,52 or 0,55 [KV-2 has 0,6] and shorter aiming time by 0.5 seconds - 3.5s compared to KV-2's 4s.

 

Lastly, I'd imagine it having low top speed of maybe 32 max, so it reaches the speed quickly, but stays low on average.

 

There was also a proposed version with an 88mm gun, which never existed, altough it could be a fun option to have it. I think it was the one used on the tier 6 and 7 Voll Kettens and the Tiger's historical gun.

I'd love if it was for bonds with the 88 as an option as a tier VI tank.

 

StuG IV is horribly underpowered right now, it's so much weaker than it's tier 4 counterpart, the StuG III B.

The 105mm would be a good option, but it also needs soem more speed, put it on par with StuG III G.



SABAOTH #3 Posted 29 January 2019 - 07:36 AM

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More arty?

 

Well until we see how they are going to "fix" it I am not dying to see those.

 

If they manage to make it fun and not annoying then why not.:coin:



DracheimFlug #4 Posted 29 January 2019 - 08:49 AM

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View PostSABAOTH, on 29 January 2019 - 07:36 AM, said:

More arty?

 

Well until we see how they are going to "fix" it I am not dying to see those.

 

If they manage to make it fun and not annoying then why not.:coin:

 

Not necessarily more arty. The SU and ISU 152's are similarly technically arty (and were used as such) but in game are presented as direct fire (a role in which they were also used). Any of the 105 Howitzer variants (M4, Pz IV, Stug (StuH), etc are all technically arty and were used historically for bombardment, but even the regular Sherman's 75 had a high enough elevation to be used for indirect fire.

 

But as with so many things, 'historically' does not equal 'in game.' In game can be simply the same vehicles with the same guns firing direct.



DuncaN_101 #5 Posted 29 January 2019 - 09:24 AM

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Do we really need more derp guns messing up all the tiers?

WoT_RU_Doing #6 Posted 29 January 2019 - 10:12 AM

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View PostDerethim, on 29 January 2019 - 02:06 AM, said:

But for some reason, there's no such option for the Stug IV to mount the 105mm of the Stug III G. Why is this?

I don't think it's worth the work of adding another tank, so why not give Stug IV owners another gun option? It's historical and not broken and at all.

 

Because it's a premium tank - you don't get options

Derethim #7 Posted 29 January 2019 - 11:28 AM

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Agreed with DracheimFlug - I never even mentioned the "A" word. I even compared it to a turretless KV-2, altough SU-152 would be a better comparison.

Although, has any of you played the Bison? The gun's damage stats aren't that good, which is why I never mentioned alpha or reload time.

WoT-RU-Doing - The Stug IV is not a premium tank, it's a reward tank. And while I agree it would be the first one to have gun options, I don't see it as a bad thing ;)

BlackBloodBandit #8 Posted 29 January 2019 - 11:30 AM

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we don't need more derpnoobtanks in the game. HE guns on normal tanks are already destroying the gameplay. playing around tier 6 is very annoying, as most of the games will be at least 1 KV-2 or O-i in enemy team.

Derethim #9 Posted 29 January 2019 - 11:31 AM

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The gun on the Brummbar would have to be a different version of the SiG, since I just checked the stats and they're balances for tier III

WoT_RU_Doing #10 Posted 29 January 2019 - 12:03 PM

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View PostDerethim, on 29 January 2019 - 10:28 AM, said:

Agreed with DracheimFlug - I never even mentioned the "A" word. I even compared it to a turretless KV-2, altough SU-152 would be a better comparison.

Although, has any of you played the Bison? The gun's damage stats aren't that good, which is why I never mentioned alpha or reload time.

WoT-RU-Doing - The Stug IV is not a premium tank, it's a reward tank. And while I agree it would be the first one to have gun options, I don't see it as a bad thing ;)

 

Reward vehicles are premium tanks. If you are in any doubt, look at the XP event that just finished - it was only open to premium vehicles with the exception of tier X, and you could complete the missions in reward vehicles (except the T-55A because it's the wrong tier :(  )

Totally agree that some premiums would benefit from a choice of equipment, but I don't see it happening. After all, if they go to the "effort" of adding another gun, why waste the opportunity of selling it as a new vehicle variant? The T-44 has three separate premium variants in the game files for example - T-44-85, T-44-100 and T-44-122

 



TankkiPoju #11 Posted 29 January 2019 - 12:11 PM

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I don't think WG will ever add a competitive German tank in the game, not anymore.

tajj7 #12 Posted 29 January 2019 - 12:27 PM

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Derp guns are stupid and we don't need anymore in the game, we need less.

 

The derps around tier 4-6 probably account for a lot newer players leaving the game as they get one shot by the likes of KV-2s, O-Is, M4 Shermans, Hetzers etc. 



Derethim #13 Posted 29 January 2019 - 04:13 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 29 January 2019 - 12:27 PM, said:

Derp guns are stupid and we don't need anymore in the game, we need less.

 

The derps around tier 4-6 probably account for a lot newer players leaving the game as they get one shot by the likes of KV-2s, O-Is, M4 Shermans, Hetzers etc. 

 

People overuse derps and HE shells, because they meet tanks they can't reliably pen even with gold, like japheavies and Defenders. Also bonus for trollpoints.

If you don't want to get one-shotted, then don't rush KV-2s head-on. 

 

It doesen't matter if you add more derp guns or not, because a player can only play one tank at a time, so he either chooses his M4, his G1R, KV-2, his O-I or maybe his Stupa, which at least doesen't have a turret. No matter how many derp tanks will WG add, people will always flock to the best one.

 

Aside from the initial "boom" when a tank is added, they will all revert to their fave derp gun. Do you see SU-152 in every match? Because I don't.


Edited by Derethim, 29 January 2019 - 04:13 PM.


gpalsson #14 Posted 29 January 2019 - 04:38 PM

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View PostDerethim, on 29 January 2019 - 03:13 PM, said:

 

People overuse derps and HE shells, because they meet tanks they can't reliably pen even with gold, like japheavies and Defenders. Also bonus for trollpoints.

If you don't want to get one-shotted, then don't rush KV-2s head-on. 

 

It doesen't matter if you add more derp guns or not, because a player can only play one tank at a time, so he either chooses his M4, his G1R, KV-2, his O-I or maybe his Stupa, which at least doesen't have a turret. No matter how many derp tanks will WG add, people will always flock to the best one.

 

Aside from the initial "boom" when a tank is added, they will all revert to their fave derp gun. Do you see SU-152 in every match? Because I don't.

 

That's one weird kind of logic.

Using that logic, O-I is perfectly fine becasue KV-2 was already in the game.

That's some next level sh1t right there.



DracheimFlug #15 Posted 29 January 2019 - 05:18 PM

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View Postgpalsson, on 29 January 2019 - 04:38 PM, said:

 

That's one weird kind of logic.

Using that logic, O-I is perfectly fine becasue KV-2 was already in the game.

That's some next level sh1t right there.

 

Maybe the better way to restate what I think he was trying to say is that unless the new derp is better than what already is available, it won't change things significantly. 

Derethim #16 Posted 30 January 2019 - 05:59 PM

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View Postgpalsson, on 29 January 2019 - 04:38 PM, said:

 

That's one weird kind of logic.

Using that logic, O-I is perfectly fine becasue KV-2 was already in the game.

That's some next level sh1t right there.

OI is slightly broken. It's a bad game design. It should have a high-alpha and low-pen gun with HEAT for premium rounds, not a 15cm derp on an impenetrable chassis.

Next level sh1t? That's regular logic. Just like Dracheim said, if it's not significantly better, people won't go for it. It would be awesome as a bond tank.



Balc0ra #17 Posted 30 January 2019 - 06:13 PM

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Brummbar could work on tier 7 as a vs to the SU-152. As it's basically a 15cm derp.

 

But according to Mr Feltcher's book here. The hull size is basically a Pz IV. So not that big. Nor much taller. But still a fairly large structure to hit. I say tier 7 as it was 100mm with a bit of a slope. SU has 86 HE pen with 910 alpha. I say give it either the 15cm shells on the other higher tier TD's with 75 pen and 950 alpha. Or 850 alpha with 90 pen. With AP at around 130 pen for 700 alpha. He listed the top speed as 40. So not that agile either vs size.

 

View PostDerethim, on 30 January 2019 - 05:59 PM, said:

OI is slightly broken. It's a bad game design. It should have a high-alpha and low-pen gun with HEAT for premium rounds, not a 15cm derp on an impenetrable chassis.

Next level sh1t? That's regular logic. Just like Dracheim said, if it's not significantly better, people won't go for it. It would be awesome as a bond tank.

 

Problem with the Jap HT's is that WG never did make the AP guns a viable option by buffing some of them vs the Derps. I did the Type 4 grind pre derp. And it's arguably the worst grind I've had on tier 9. Even more so considering back then, the weakspot on the Type 4 head on was stronger then it's AP pen before they nerfed it, even worse with the stock gun. So that everyone runs derp on them is understandable.

Edited by Balc0ra, 30 January 2019 - 06:15 PM.


Derethim #18 Posted 31 January 2019 - 05:19 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 30 January 2019 - 06:13 PM, said:

Brummbar could work on tier 7 as a vs to the SU-152. As it's basically a 15cm derp.

 

But according to Mr Feltcher's book here. The hull size is basically a Pz IV. So not that big. Nor much taller. But still a fairly large structure to hit. I say tier 7 as it was 100mm with a bit of a slope. SU has 86 HE pen with 910 alpha. I say give it either the 15cm shells on the other higher tier TD's with 75 pen and 950 alpha. Or 850 alpha with 90 pen. With AP at around 130 pen for 700 alpha. He listed the top speed as 40. So not that agile either vs size.

 

 

Problem with the Jap HT's is that WG never did make the AP guns a viable option by buffing some of them vs the Derps. I did the Type 4 grind pre derp. And it's arguably the worst grind I've had on tier 9. Even more so considering back then, the weakspot on the Type 4 head on was stronger then it's AP pen before they nerfed it, even worse with the stock gun. So that everyone runs derp on them is understandable.

 

Even on ltier 6 it would have to get non-historical armor though - by putting it on tier 7 with even less armor, you're just putting a bad ISU out there.

Tier 7 bad.






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