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Matchmaker Tweaks: Next Steps


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piratha #41 Posted 07 February 2019 - 06:25 PM

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I really do not underdstand: they complain about having "too many" Tier X and Tier 9 tanks to allocate, so that a lot Tier 8s has to be taken in the infamous 3-5-7 template. As bottom tier. Constantly. For ever.

 

I want to suggesta 0-Day fix to this imbalance:

 

 

Sarsasm aside, why didn't they push more mono-tier battles!? It easily offsets and removes any number imbalance, without introducing disadwantages. Win-Win scenario: I play my tank against comparable opponents, there is inherent balance, leave some 5-10 or 3-5-7 every now and them - don't fix a new algo, rather tune it. :facepalm:

 

If a shop has a surplus of red apples, they simply lower the price or sell bigger bags with more red apples inside, period. They will never-ever sell 3 red apples, 5 yellow and 7 green together.. but wait, oh Tanks Bundles! That's another huge chapter by WG.


Edited by piratha, 07 February 2019 - 06:29 PM.


HerrWizo #42 Posted 07 February 2019 - 06:37 PM

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Don't hold your breath folks. I would even go so far to say we are not getting this until very late in 2019. They will try to milk playerbase for as long as they can... And in the meantime, they will wrire an article every few months.

 

If I was 10% as slow as that in my company, I'd get fired a long time ago.



Cane61 #43 Posted 07 February 2019 - 06:37 PM

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I have no problem to allways be botom tier if MM is only  +/-1 !!!


Edited by eekeeboo, 07 February 2019 - 06:57 PM.


eekeeboo #44 Posted 07 February 2019 - 06:38 PM

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View Postdasdon, on 07 February 2019 - 04:14 PM, said:

no mention of the 3 arty games that are the constant now a days. no mention of the td plague games where over half the team are tds. no mention of the 6 light tanks per team game either.
seriously wg get a grip and sort this bs, no one minds waiting for 30 secs to get a game if it will be a better mm.

 

You might not mind, but plenty of games with long MM queue and their player base would like to disagree. 

Milpac #45 Posted 07 February 2019 - 06:39 PM

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All very complicated. But does nothing to fix the all too frequent games where your team is massively outclassed by the enemy, often they have almost twice the combined wn8 that your team has. And another 3 - 15 games ensues, lasting about 3 minutes. Little fun for either team.

If this happened occasionally it would be ok, but it's happening in more than 50% of games.



Cane61 #46 Posted 07 February 2019 - 06:41 PM

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 why didn't they push more mono-tier battles!?

 

 

 

 

Simple....They are wealth sadists ... we are poor masochists.


Edited by Cane61, 07 February 2019 - 06:43 PM.


Tijsbeek993 #47 Posted 07 February 2019 - 06:46 PM

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View PostTheArk_2014, on 07 February 2019 - 04:36 PM, said:

:popcorn:

 

I have two big bags of Pop-Corn ...

 

 

___________________________________________________

... but still ... here my opinion ...

 

Well, WG, no matter what new MM you will bring to us (the players), there will be always players who will complain about the MM ...

... unless you balance the teams by the players' abilities/skills (at least for the high tier tanks or even only for the Heavy Tanks), good players vs good players, bad players vs bad players, etc.

 

The thing that the players hate the most is the lost battles because of of a few Bad Players.

 

:B

 

wrong

 

your just another not research done guy.

if you make it skill based people wil lose MORE.

Use your brain.
Unicom against 14 noobs and 1 pro. Easy unicom rating
Unicom against 14 unicoms. rip rating

You wil lose more because you can't affect the game as much.

A unicom wil win more against noobs then unicoms. 

ALWAYS people wil complain. And why did you even think that skill based mm is good?



Spemmy #48 Posted 07 February 2019 - 06:51 PM

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I dunno, there are so many weird things about the matchmaking. Pyramid templating, fighting higher tier tanks that you can't hurt and stand no chance against, green and red team skill levels being unbalanced (the "bias" ), and matching beginners against unicorns. And there's a loss of battle quality (more general chaos, roflstomps, etc) when more players than usual are playing during weekends and holiday events; this should be the moment for the MM to shine, when there's a lot to pick from in the queue, but no.

I'd say go for no pyramid templating, +1/-1, and same tier battles to even out excess numbers of players for the most common tiers on the server.

Or, rather: Rework the whole tech tree. Scrap the present tiers 1 and 2 completely. (They were my first and welcoming disappointment when joining the game; stupid looking tin cans with poof poof guns that did not at all fulfill the promise of "tanks" in "World of tanks".) Then reduce the number of tiers to like 5, rebalance and reshuffle tanks (incl. create new lines in the tree) and re-distribute them between the new tiers, and from then on only do same tier battles. And remove premium ammo, oc.

WG won't do this.


Edited by Spemmy, 07 February 2019 - 06:53 PM.


Insert_Insult #49 Posted 07 February 2019 - 06:54 PM

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View PostTijsbeek993, on 07 February 2019 - 05:46 PM, said:

 

wrong

 

your just another not research done guy.

if you make it skill based people wil lose MORE.

Use your brain.
Unicom against 14 noobs and 1 pro. Easy unicom rating
Unicom against 14 unicoms. rip rating

You wil lose more because you can't affect the game as much.

A unicom wil win more against noobs then unicoms. 

ALWAYS people wil complain. And why did you even think that skill based mm is good?

 

I forget how many times I have been in battles with 1-2 skilled players rest bad on my side, and 14 skilled 1 bad on the other team, you want to guess how that normally works out,  i dunno what algorithm they use but most of the battles I get into, my side is the worse off for bad players vs the other side... and before any stat padder states it, I know I am a bad player. get over it. 

eekeeboo #50 Posted 07 February 2019 - 06:54 PM

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View Postfeies_vlad, on 07 February 2019 - 04:09 PM, said:

There was some really good mm testing on the Asian server last year where players got alot of +1-1 games, i remember some people in Circon's chat for example that played on the asian server said that the mm was really nice, but than shortly after WG change it and made it crap again...but why? Did people had to much fun and WG was like "wait we can't have players actually have a fun". And to be honest WG said that they can't implement +1-1 because the queue times would be to long, I rather wait 1-2 min for a nice balanced game with good mm instead of insta queue every game in constant +2 games...

 

IT was a test not a permanent change, data was gathered and assessed. 

 

View Postdasdon, on 07 February 2019 - 04:14 PM, said:

 

 

  That would be because this is a MM mechanics explanation, nothing more, nothing less. Please consider this before making such comments. 

 

View Postfeies_vlad, on 07 February 2019 - 04:14 PM, said:

Well WG thinks we, players could have to much fun with +1-1 mm that is why they don't like to implement +1-1, because they earn alot of money from the games where we are constantly put as bottom tier and need to shoot prem to do anything...

 

Can you show proof of someone making this claim or is this an assumption? 

 

View PostGeneticSpin, on 07 February 2019 - 04:20 PM, said:

it will not fix the random battle befor the fix the teams wher you have 8 unicum players on a teams an 2 on the other team!!...

so ye continue killing the game WG!!!!...

the game will stay RIGGED FOR EVER!!!!!....

 

Once more, as previously stated to yourself: "There is no rigging" Thank-you for reading this and taking it on board. 

 

View PostRammste1ner, on 07 February 2019 - 04:22 PM, said:

In my opinion, most important thing would be for mm to count how many times you are bottom tier....with that, i wouldnt mind current template. For example....you play two games bottom tier, next two games should be top tier or, if matchmaker for some reason cant find lower tiers in queue, put same tier game. Its not perfect, but still better than fighting tier 10s ten games in a row, when you need to grind credits with tier 8s....then you got one game top tier, and, oh boy, here we go again....

 

There was a system like this previously with the karma system, but with the new template system this was no longer required, it is possible if the new templates do not address any issues that a review on the karma removal could be considered. This is not for definite, but this is the system you're referring to. 

 

View PostKilling_One, on 07 February 2019 - 04:42 PM, said:

This just a little change ....this will not resolve the unbalanced teams 11% vs 90%wr in 85% from game time ,is need a skill MM based 50% - 50% wr equal chances both sides...,when a skill MM will be implemented all players will be happy ,till then is need to deal with the 30 lost in a row and 5 wins.... ,also is need to fix the spoting system and lower the +999 rng ,make guns more accurate....................heh dreams dreams dreams :rolleyes:

 

Skill based MM will not be the solution you think it is. When you consider the "skill" metric you would measure and how these are easily inflated or hidden and how this would lead to "false confidence". People say they will be happy with skill based MM until they get it, and then you usually get complaints because they don't get to beat teams like they used to or you open the door to complaints at "not-fit-for-purpose" metrics used. 

 

View Postfranar, on 07 February 2019 - 04:44 PM, said:

I think wg should think how to make every tier worth to play.  

Buff the health on lower tiers and put 100 crew up to tier 4. Like this the battles are more interesting and you do not die by one shoot

 

I am curious the match-ups and fights you pick to die consistently to 1 shot from the enemy. Perhaps this is something you should consider as a personal action point than blaming the MM for these actions. MM will not be able to help you avoid those situations where you get 1 shot and inflating the HP would mean you then create a further disparity between tiers, you would have to inflate the health on all tiers below, completely negating the action in the first place. 

 

View PostSM1AK, on 07 February 2019 - 04:47 PM, said:

FINALLY!!! when you're the bottom tier you don't have many worthy opponents, but are just cannon fodder for the top tiers. except if you're playing an OP premium tank. The only time I can contribute a bit to the outcome of the game as a bottom tier is when I play the 54 mod 1. In stock tech tree tanks you can't do crap and even in some fully upgraded.  

 

May I suggest you look at doing more tracking shots and spotting for the big guns on your team, you will find you can have more and more of an impact in battles and help your team be victorious. 

 

View PostZoggo_, on 07 February 2019 - 04:53 PM, said:

JUST GET ON WITH IT !

By the time we actually see a new MM template on EU servers it will be almost two years of the utter garbage that is 3/5/7 MM.

 

Was 9.18 MM a genuine mistake or intended ? I get the feeling WG tried to push players into playing tier X with the MM, making tier 6 to 8 a more miserable experience being bottom tier 80% of the time. The higher the tier the more likely you need a premium account especially at tier X. Then again maybe it was just sheer incompetence.

 

The changes in 9.18 were to address other issues from the players about the MM and the games they saw, it created new issues, but doesn't mean it was a mistake. 
17:55 Added after 0 minutes

View Post_LEO_, on 07 February 2019 - 05:03 PM, said:

8 months ago you said that you need 6 months to fix MM, epic fail!

 

​And 1 month ago we announced a lot of new things being worked on and introduced. 
17:57 Added after 2 minutes

View Postpiratha, on 07 February 2019 - 05:25 PM, said:

I really do not underdstand: they complain about having "too many" Tier X and Tier 9 tanks to allocate, so that a lot Tier 8s has to be taken in the infamous 3-5-7 template. As bottom tier. Constantly. For ever.

 

I want to suggesta 0-Day fix to this imbalance:

 

 

Sarsasm aside, why didn't they push more mono-tier battles!? It easily offsets and removes any number imbalance, without introducing disadwantages. Win-Win scenario: I play my tank against comparable opponents, there is inherent balance, leave some 5-10 or 3-5-7 every now and them - don't fix a new algo, rather tune it. :facepalm:

 

If a shop has a surplus of red apples, they simply lower the price or sell bigger bags with more red apples inside, period. They will never-ever sell 3 red apples, 5 yellow and 7 green together.. but wait, oh Tanks Bundles! That's another huge chapter by WG.

 

Because of the times you then don't have enough tier 9s and 10s to fill a battle entirely (as was originally the case moons ago before the original MM changes for tier 8s). 

McMad #51 Posted 07 February 2019 - 06:59 PM

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Great news! Thanks WG

Insert_Insult #52 Posted 07 February 2019 - 07:04 PM

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31 battles with a Tier 8, non-preferential MM Td.

 

21 @ Tier 10.

10 @ Tier 9, no T7's

3 @ Tier 8, all T8

1 @ Tier 8, with 6/7

 

as you can see MM is working perfectly for T10 & T9, 

 

 



Balc0ra #53 Posted 07 February 2019 - 07:07 PM

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View Postfeies_vlad, on 07 February 2019 - 05:14 PM, said:

Well WG thinks we, players could have to much fun with +1-1 mm that is why they don't like to implement +1-1, because they earn alot of money from the games where we are constantly put as bottom tier and need to shoot prem to do anything...

 

I've talked to as many that say +1 is a bad idea, as I've talked to people saying +1 is a good idea. It's not like everyone wants it either tbh. I'm one of them. As atm, the balance on some tanks is way off to get that to work. As I said, I don't play my preff MM tanks due to +1, it's due to +0 and the balance on tier 8. And the old meta premiums will only be better and more broken due to it. Defender is only kept in check... as he sees tier X to name one.

Edited by Balc0ra, 07 February 2019 - 07:07 PM.


N00BT00B #54 Posted 07 February 2019 - 07:08 PM

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View Posteekeeboo, on 07 February 2019 - 05:38 PM, said:

 

You might not mind, but plenty of games with long MM queue and their player base would like to disagree. 

 

I don't think I've ever seen a thread complaining about queue times here, but I have seen plenty of threads about poor tank matching, rollovers and poor skill balance between teams.

 

feedback?


Edited by N00BT00B, 07 February 2019 - 07:08 PM.


dasdon #55 Posted 07 February 2019 - 07:08 PM

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View Posteekeeboo, on 07 February 2019 - 05:38 PM, said:

 

You might not mind, but plenty of games with long MM queue and their player base would like to disagree. 

 

name onegame that people don't mind waiting to avoid (A) being roflstomped (B) doing the roflstomp © being bottom tier 8 out 10 games (D) being punished for teaming up[see c] (E) seeing the same map constantly



Tigerfish_Torpedo #56 Posted 07 February 2019 - 07:15 PM

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Why are WG not addressing the biggest issue with the MM?

 

It's irrelevant how the template system divides vehicles per team, if it doesn't consider the skill level of the players on each team. The current template system would work far better than it currently does if one team didn't always far surpass the other in player ability. Many people criticise the use of XVM in WoT, but it does stand to highlight the difference in both collective player ratings and team Wn8 rankings. The best example I've seen of late was where our team had 1x T110E3 with a 9790 rating and a Rhm Pzw with a 8696 rating (our third highest player ranking was 6569), yet the enemy had an Object 260 with a 9840 rating, a T54 with a 9371 rating, a WZ 111 5A with a 9271 rating, a Standard B with a 9091 rating (then a further 4 players with between a 7-8k rating). 

 

In that example, I was the 5th best player on our team with a 5566 rating, yet I wouldn't have been within the top 11 of their team. Unsurprisingly, the difference in team Wn8 was 7993 (16850 vs 24843) which equated to a win chance of only 33% (that's the same as having two additional Quickbabies on their team!). The end result wasn't even close. It was a total whitewash. I wish I could say that this was an isolated example, but I have a folder full of screenshots where the teams have been so horribly imbalanced that it's frankly amusing.

 

Switching out templates won't fix this problem. If our XVM system can instantly see the discrepancy in team makeup, then why can't the MM? You wouldn't even need to assign different players to the aforementioned battle, just divide the better players more evenly between the two teams. Your proposed changes to the template system, WG, will only result in vastly superior teams being formed of slightly different templates. 

 

 

 



deorum #57 Posted 07 February 2019 - 07:44 PM

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View PostTigerfish_Torpedo, on 07 February 2019 - 06:15 PM, said:

Why are WG not addressing the biggest issue with the MM?

 

It's irrelevant how the template system divides vehicles per team, if it doesn't consider the skill level of the players on each team. The current template system would work far better than it currently does if one team didn't always far surpass the other in player ability. Many people criticise the use of XVM in WoT, but it does stand to highlight the difference in both collective player ratings and team Wn8 rankings. The best example I've seen of late was where our team had 1x T110E3 with a 9790 rating and a Rhm Pzw with a 8696 rating (our third highest player ranking was 6569), yet the enemy had an Object 260 with a 9840 rating, a T54 with a 9371 rating, a WZ 111 5A with a 9271 rating, a Standard B with a 9091 rating (then a further 4 players with between a 7-8k rating). 

 

In that example, I was the 5th best player on our team with a 5566 rating, yet I wouldn't have been within the top 11 of their team. Unsurprisingly, the difference in team Wn8 was 7993 (16850 vs 24843) which equated to a win chance of only 33% (that's the same as having two additional Quickbabies on their team!). The end result wasn't even close. It was a total whitewash. I wish I could say that this was an isolated example, but I have a folder full of screenshots where the teams have been so horribly imbalanced that it's frankly amusing.

 

Switching out templates won't fix this problem. If our XVM system can instantly see the discrepancy in team makeup, then why can't the MM? You wouldn't even need to assign different players to the aforementioned battle, just divide the better players more evenly between the two teams. Your proposed changes to the template system, WG, will only result in vastly superior teams being formed of slightly different templates. 

 

 

 

 

Its not that simple.

First of all, roflstomps happen also in ranked battles where theoretically people that have reached a certain levels are more or less pretty close in perforamnce and experience.

Secondly, (while having no proof), i am sure that even if you could put 15-15 absolutely identical performing players (lets say 15-15 QuickyBabies :P ), there will be sometimes a a 15-3 result. It just happens, its just a succesfull rush, or the LTs dying early, or whatever. I am sure you know that after 30k battles. 

 

Most importantly however. We could sit here and discuss dozens of scenarios, and we could try them all out. HOWEVER, the pool of players is not infinite!
Do the math, and you will see how many are in battles at the same time each moment. It's not infinite, its far from infinite!

 

After 03:00 in EU server (an average populated server, there are worst examples), if you try a game with tier 2-3-4, you will not get a game!

Asia or NA servers are way worse!

In peak times, (always about EU server) there are about 300-350 in queue to start a game. Now divide the tiers, the MM, any other filters that currently exist, and you only have 2-3 possible games to start in the next 30'' or so! Its not that simple. 

Do the math. 

Now that i'm writing this , there are 75K players online. Doesnt mean all have or will press the BATTLE button. Some are texting, some are AFK, some are of course playing. There are players in clans, in skirmishes, in advances, in training rooms, playing from tier 1 to tier 10, and in Grand Battles.  
 The end result is, when you DO hit the BATTLE button, there are 300-350 ppl in queue. Only 10 possible battles, without ANY filter, only 10possible battles, if you dont care about a tier1 facing a tier10. Introducing a single filter of +-2 tiers, instantly brings you to 2-3 possible battles. More filters, further divide this number. 
 You can of course choose to wait a bit. Sure. But how long? 



Max_Calibre #58 Posted 07 February 2019 - 07:53 PM

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Well Wargame I'm pretty dam sure this is now your last chance saloon so to speak to "actually" in the "real-world-do-it" and please "not feed us a stinking pile of horse dung (again, then again"

 

after 5 years almost of "at first" believing everything you promise your community of players ~ then being lied to, or mislead, or you forget to do anything on purpose (again) but I believe you tried (lol

then too treating every promise you made or every 'real or big improvement' as yeah like huh! we will see, so like probably not (again

 

it would be SO NICE to see you really fix the dam crappy Match Maker so as we the players have better than miss-matched 4 minute turbo slaughters most every game

which I personally hate, when it always happens it seems (and on purpose yes you WG) far, far to often

 

then the hated Tier 10 games in my Tier 8's where I am feeling USLESS to my team ~ when all my T10 team mates die in 2 minutes as there all poor players v enemy GOOD players

 

Waiting patiently through 2019 for a GOOD MM so to really start to enjoy competitive & fun enjoyable games hopefully will last longer than todays 4 minutes fail battles, in ANY tier

 

 


Edited by Max_Calibre, 07 February 2019 - 07:58 PM.


GeneticSpin #59 Posted 07 February 2019 - 07:59 PM

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View Postadameitas, on 07 February 2019 - 04:21 PM, said:

 

mate green players are not unicums:)

 

i know

Filson #60 Posted 07 February 2019 - 08:08 PM

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Good news WG.

We're probably a little reserved with the praise, since 3-5-7 sounded awesome too back in the day.

That was until it launched and we saw a hidden fat tail distribution on being low tier, that nobody had said anything about in the marketing brochure.

 

But good on you, if you pull it off without caveats. It will mean a lot for the vibe of the game.

 






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