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Anyone else thinks "Special" ammo is a terrible idea?


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FTR #1 Posted 12 February 2019 - 02:13 PM

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I kinda feel like incoming premium ammo change is going to seriously hurt the game. It's going to cause massive disbalance, and regardless what is wargamming saying, they cannot adjust all armored tanks in the entire game to compensate for it.

 

And people will STILL spam premium ammo regardless. It doesn't matter if you deal 30% dmg less if that's the only way you can pen something. I love playing my IS-6 and what's gonna happen to this tank after prem ammo nerf? It has to fire almost exclusively gold ammo, especially when it meets tier 9 which is like 4/5 of all games in it, it will just deal 30% less dmg? Same with many other brawling tanks that have crappy base pen have to fight heavily armored opponents.

 

I already said it before but I think the best course of action would be to remove gold ammo entirely and compensate by increasing cost of base ammo if needed, and balance the game out for just one ammo type (excluding HE which is something else entirely, and rather fair in my opinion), or just leave things as they are unless wg comes up with better idea.

 

The only things that are going to happen after this change is further increasing disbalance, forcing us to fire more gold ammo spending more credits and ruining heavily armored tank players experience because now they not only gonna have to deal with crap boring speed of their vehicles, but they gonna be robbed of the only satisfying thing which is bouncing shots, if wargamming goes ahead and also nerfs the armor. 

 

There are many possible ways or nerfing premium ammo to keep it useful against heavily armored opponents, while increasing skillcap required to use this type of ammo so it's not just better version of regular ammo in every way.

 

Shell velocity

Ricochets

Losing pen at range

Accuracy

Bullet drop

 

Many aspects can be adjusted to make it less "nobrain 2key tap" type of ammo. I think special ammo drop over distance is a very interesting thing that could make it less useful and require more skill to use. It would be still just as useful when brawling tanks at close distance (and taking the biggest risks by doing so) because drop wouldn't be very significant, but at large distance you would have to compensate for that.



vasilinhorulezz #2 Posted 12 February 2019 - 02:48 PM

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Half asset solution to a problem that's completely a result of a good amount of parameters,

- Corridor META

- Removal of concealment

-Overbuffed armor

-Imbalance between tanks

-+2 MM

and so on.

 

Premium ammo is a necessary evil in this state of the game, and re-balance of ammo types should come with a complete re-balance of

-Ammo

-Maps

-Armor

 

but, I guess this would need serious effort to happen, so they chose the easy way out.



Balc0ra #3 Posted 12 February 2019 - 03:09 PM

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Depends. First test drafts only showed the planned alpha change that seems fine atm. Some damage is still better then zero on most guns. But nothing was shown about the normal ammo changes planned for some guns to counter for the special ammo change. If the normal ammo is too low or unchanged. It will just give power to the wrong tanks. As the IS-6 is one of those in danger of being 100% useless then. It has "meh" gold pen even, and terrible pen to counter Defenders and VK 100.01's as is etc head-on. As it fighting vs the wrong tank in a corridor with zero chance to flank. It will have to do so with 1400 dpm. 

 

Since they refuse to add more spots on normal tanks you can at least have a 35 to 40% chance to pen at the minimum if you aim right on an equal tier of the same class. As when you have 8% or less. You are still forced to press 2 anyway. And as long as that issue is there on most guns. This change might make some tanks worse, and others stronger. But... it's too early to tell atm. As we don't even have all the info yet. Nor is it final.

 

View Postvasilinhorulezz, on 12 February 2019 - 02:48 PM, said:

Half asset solution to a problem that's completely a result of a good amount of parameters,

- Corridor META

- Removal of concealment

-Overbuffed armor

-Imbalance between tanks

-+2 MM

and so on.

 

Thing is that it's tier dependent. On some tiers this will make a world of difference in a positive way, mostly on mid tiers. On high tiers, +2 MM is less an issue, and equal tier balance is a bigger issue that could make this worse. Tier 9 is fine for the most part. But tier 8 and X less so. As I've said, I don't play some of my older tier 8's due to +2. It's due to +0 games and lack of weak spots on the more recent armor. As the "weak spot" still has more armor then I have pen on even a 23%+ pen roll. 



Dava_117 #4 Posted 12 February 2019 - 03:15 PM

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IMO this is the perfect solution to balance premium ammo. It just came too late, in a weackspot less meta.

I still hope WG bring that to live server, so we won't see any more SConquerors, 5As, E3s, E25s, T67s, Pz1Cs and so on just spamming premium ammo because it has no drawbacks. I won't have much problem with this solution as I already shoot quite close to no premium ammo.

I also hope that after the rebalance, they can actually see how the lack of weackspots is affecting the game and add them back.

Meanwhile I will enjoy outtrading tryhard spamming premium instead of learn armour layout while in my balanced HTs shooting AP.



SuedKAT #5 Posted 12 February 2019 - 03:39 PM

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To implement this change into the current game will skew the game balance for the worse even more and even further buff the most dominant class in the game, HT's. They mentioned that they also will rework tanks to be usable in this MM and mechanic, from what we've seen so far it don't look promising considering they've stated that weakspots won't be a thing and their fix to Typer 4 and 5 HT was nothing but a lowering of their alpha damage. This might be a nice quick fix in matches were there are only fully researched same tier tanks fighting, but considering I can even today ignore a T32 in my VK 100.01P it won't be any better when he also does 30% less damage to me if he even manage to pen in the first place.

 

Before they implement something like this there are a ton of things that needs fixing, overall balance and map design being the major ones, however it will also become quite mandatory to free XP your top gun since most of the time the stock one(s) will be even worse than today so I hope that they don't slap a -30% damage on stock guns as well since that would be an horrific decision. Sadly this will most likely be yet another thing that will hit the test server in a dreadful state and there wake up Steve the IS-7 driver and make him realize just how bad this will be but as always what we see on the test server is something we have to live with for 6-12 months before a fix is applied. 



Noo_Noo #6 Posted 12 February 2019 - 04:57 PM

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These changes could be a yet another huge con by WG. 

It is very feasible that you will have to shoot even more Special Ammo than you currently do, which will obviously cost more. 

All of this under the banner of WG listening to the player base and doing what they wanted. 

ironvolt #7 Posted 12 February 2019 - 05:20 PM

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Once this was commander's hatch/driver's hatch/machine gun port shooter. You had to learn to aim for them and lose time in the process or shoot gold. Now the cupolas are not cupolas anymore (if they even exist on some tanks) the hatches are not hatches - they are just textures. No knowledge can help you facing the new generation of tanks so the game turns into gold DPM fest. Fast and armored tanks, fast guns, ultra HTs, troll v-shape hulls... Reworking gold ammo means reworking half of the game. If they only reduce the damage of the gold it will lead to EVEN MORE gold spam. If the spammer now needs 4-5 shots he will shoot 8-10 shots for the same job. What I'm saying is they don't want to fix the game! They want to increase the gold usage covered in good intentions.

Tinbawx #8 Posted 12 February 2019 - 05:40 PM

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Nerfing premium ammo would exacerbate the actual problems the game has and quite possibly force WG to address them.

 

However, pursuing that outcome doesn´t really seem to be what WG is after. If it was, they´d address the actual issues right away, without backing themselves into a corner first.

So I´m kind of at a loss as to what their goal is.

 

Nerfing premium ammo to make people buy more premium ammo seems quite daft, even for WG. Not to mention it might very well backfire and cost them more than they would gain.

Not that slimy little business tricks backfiring at large games companies (who´re often out of touch with their players) is that unusual, but I don´t think that´s what WG intends to do here.

 

Unless WG is trying to somehow pave the way to balancing the game around standard ammo again (yeah right :teethhappy:) and try to get a clearer picture by weakening the "great equalizer" first, I don´t see where they´re going with this.



ApocalypseSquad #9 Posted 12 February 2019 - 05:52 PM

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I think some changes are needed.  For the cash rich stat padder, spamming premium ammo has absolutely no downside atm.  I am all in favour of rewarding skill, i.e., people who know where to shoot and are capable of doing it.

 

However it is inevitably going to screw with the game balance and we have to accept that there are going to be some painful anomalies in the short term.  There is no way they can rebalance everything correctly in one hit.  WG are going to need to be on their toes to close down the loopholes as fast as possible.

 

It still needs doing though, and I think as players we have to bear with some issues in the short term for the longer term good of the game.

 



Noo_Noo #10 Posted 12 February 2019 - 06:11 PM

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View PostApocalypseSquad, on 12 February 2019 - 05:52 PM, said:

I think some changes are needed.  For the cash rich stat padder, spamming premium ammo has absolutely no downside atm.  I am all in favour of rewarding skill, i.e., people who know where to shoot and are capable of doing it.

 

However it is inevitably going to screw with the game balance and we have to accept that there are going to be some painful anomalies in the short term.  There is no way they can rebalance everything correctly in one hit.  WG are going to need to be on their toes to close down the loopholes as fast as possible.

 

It still needs doing though, and I think as players we have to bear with some issues in the short term for the longer term good of the game.

 

 

I agree that changes are needed and most welcome and that it cant all happen overnight but I am also fearful of WG's performance in addressing any kind of in game issue. 

I can easily see them implementing the change and then holding off on changes to the Maus, Type 5 etc. until enough free XP has been blown by people pushing for these soon to be broken (Type 5 there already) monsters. This is normal WG practice ie we are gathering data.

 

FTR #11 Posted 12 February 2019 - 06:31 PM

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View PostSuedKAT, on 12 February 2019 - 03:39 PM, said:

buff the most dominant class in the game, HT's

 

What do you base this statement on?

 

Medium tanks are the most capable tanks in the game, with highest skillcap. Good players absolutely dominate in medium tanks. Heavy tanks sometimes forgive mistakes (in the right matchup) but also have severe limitations because of their slowness, unlike mediums.

 

Best players won't consistently reach the heights in their results in heavy tanks, but they will in mediums.


Edited by FTR, 12 February 2019 - 06:32 PM.


Slyspy #12 Posted 12 February 2019 - 06:35 PM

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View PostFTR, on 12 February 2019 - 06:31 PM, said:

 

What do you base this statement on?

 

Medium tanks are the most capable tanks in the game, with highest skillcap. Good players absolutely dominate in medium tanks. Heavy tanks sometimes forgive mistakes (in the right matchup) but also have severe limitations because of their slowness, unlike mediums.

 

Best players won't consistently reach the heights in their results in heavy tanks, but they will in mediums.

 

Because heavy tanks have higher WRs. 

SuedKAT #13 Posted 12 February 2019 - 07:09 PM

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View PostFTR, on 12 February 2019 - 06:31 PM, said:

 

What do you base this statement on?

 

Medium tanks are the most capable tanks in the game, with highest skillcap. Good players absolutely dominate in medium tanks. Heavy tanks sometimes forgive mistakes (in the right matchup) but also have severe limitations because of their slowness, unlike mediums.

 

Best players won't consistently reach the heights in their results in heavy tanks, but they will in mediums.

 

Yes good players can make a lot of things work that other players can't however for the average player a HT especially the more armored ones are the most forgiving. As an example, an average player is a lot more likely to impact the game in an O-I compared to a Chi-To, both Japanese tier 6's, or for example the Maus vs the Leopard 1, not to mention that due to map design you often have critical points that you need armor to be able to contest/hold efficiently. Overall average players achieve a higher WR and have a higher impact in their HT's compared (especially the armored ones) to other tank types.

Objec7 #14 Posted 12 February 2019 - 07:20 PM

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View PostDava_117, on 12 February 2019 - 03:15 PM, said:

IMO this is the perfect solution to balance premium ammo. It just came too late, in a weackspot less meta.

I still hope WG bring that to live server, so we won't see any more SConquerors, 5As, E3s, E25s, T67s, Pz1Cs and so on just spamming premium ammo because it has no drawbacks. I won't have much problem with this solution as I already shoot quite close to no premium ammo.

I also hope that after the rebalance, they can actually see how the lack of weackspots is affecting the game and add them back.

Meanwhile I will enjoy outtrading tryhard spamming premium instead of learn armour layout while in my balanced HTs shooting AP.

 

Well then wee see only Types because your logic

PervyPastryPuffer #15 Posted 12 February 2019 - 07:26 PM

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The core problem with premium ammo is its purpose - penetrating thicker armor more reliably. This can never be balanced properly, and was doomed from the start.

 

It simply needs to be limited per-loadout. Let's assume these shells which boasted higher penetration values were way more expensive to make...so as a tanker, you're forced to take a limited amount of them into battle, let's say about 5-10, depending on the caliber of the gun and ammorack capacity.

 

There's nothing to lose if they did this^, it's such a simple adjustment it's laughable - people keep complaining about premium ammo SPAM...so what would be the most obvious solution to this issue? Limit the amount each player can carry into battle! :facepalm: COME ON WG, IT'S SERIOUSLY, THAT. SIMPLE. JEEZ.



kaneloon #16 Posted 12 February 2019 - 07:30 PM

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The only thing I see is that I'll get a stats boost, which I'm pretty fine with.

XxKuzkina_MatxX #17 Posted 12 February 2019 - 08:51 PM

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I don't think these changes will ever be implemented. The best they can do is limit the number of premium shells per tank.

 

Interesting that nobody links the usage of premium ammo to the level of accuracy in the game!



malowany #18 Posted 12 February 2019 - 10:05 PM

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View PostNoo_Noo, on 12 February 2019 - 04:57 PM, said:

These changes could be a yet another huge con by WG. 

It is very feasible that you will have to shoot even more Special Ammo than you currently do, which will obviously cost more. 

All of this under the banner of WG listening to the player base and doing what they wanted. 

 

I bet that the guy who thought this up got a promotion. Its a win-win for WG

 

Block Quote

 

The core problem with premium ammo is its purpose - penetrating thicker armor more reliably. This can never be balanced properly, and was doomed from the start.

 

It simply needs to be limited per-loadout. Let's assume these shells which boasted higher penetration values were way more expensive to make...so as a tanker, you're forced to take a limited amount of them into battle, let's say about 5-10, depending on the caliber of the gun and ammorack capacity.

 

That always was the most logical solution, limit the number os prem shells you can take into the match, one huge problem though, it would limit how much WG makes on prem ammo and thats a huge no-no ;)

 


Edited by malowany, 12 February 2019 - 10:07 PM.


CyberRage #19 Posted 12 February 2019 - 10:08 PM

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Honestly if they reduced the price down to standard and increased the reload time ( because they are more 'complicated' ) for special rounds it would be fine. Alpha decrease is not the way to go.

Morgaroth_ #20 Posted 12 February 2019 - 10:52 PM

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I'm sure most of us agree that something needs to change.

Tanks nowadays don't have frontal weakspots and that forces us to shoot gold to pen them.

 

But also some tanks let's take WZ 111-1-4 for example. It has 244 normal AP pen, But with heat it has 340 pen. It's pretty disgusting to gain almost 100 pen by just pressing the 2 key.

If I meet a tortoise why should I even bother try to hit cupola weakspot with AP when I can just use HEAT and snapshot him and almost 100% pen him every single time.

 

So I think all the tanks should have some kind of frontal weakspot and then 'special' ammo could be balanced to have lower damage or limited quantity..






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