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The Big STB-1 and Leopard 1 Discussion

STB Leopard Gameplay Mediums News Update

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Poll: How to improve STB and Leo (read in the post) (27 members have cast votes)

You have to complete 250 battle in order to participate this poll.

Do you agree with STB improvements?

  1. Yes (100% or partially) (16 votes [59.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 59.26%

  2. No (11 votes [40.74%])

    Percentage of vote: 40.74%

Do you agree with Leo improvements?

  1. Yes (100% or partially) (22 votes [81.48%])

    Percentage of vote: 81.48%

  2. No (5 votes [18.52%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.52%

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Wildcatze #1 Posted 10 March 2019 - 02:36 AM

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Hello everyone,

 

   I am raising this post in regards to the news that Wargaming brought to us here:

https://worldoftanks...s-to-come-2019/

   They've mentioned that they are planning to improve the underwhelming STB-1 and Leopard 1, which surely is great news.

In this post I want to share our constructive opinions to Wargaming on how to change these 2 medium tanks in a way to benefit us and make them fun to play and also competitive, in comparison to the other medium tanks in the game. 

   Below is a table full of data collected from tanks.gg with the details of the main medium tanks with 390 alpha damage, on a completely stock setup (no skills /perks /equipment/ consumables) with 100% crew.  I've chosen these tanks in particular to compare because it regards to game play, they are the most similar (gun depression + alpha dmg)

  STB-1 Centurion AX M48 Patton Leopard 1 AMX30 B
Top Speed (fw) 53 53 45 65 65
Turret Armor (fw) 195 254 254 52 150
Hull Armor (fw) 90 120 110 70 55
Gun Depression 10 10 9 9 8
Reload Time 7.67 8.25 8.01 8.34 7.48
Penetration 258 268 268 268 248
Aiming time 2.21 2.01 1.82 1.82 1.92
Dispersion 0.35 0.31 0.35 0.29 0.35
Wile Moving 0.15 0.13 0.10 0.17 0.12
Tank traverse 0.15 0.13 0.10 0.17 0.12
Turret traverse

0.13

0.12 0.08 0.08 0.04
View range 410 410 420 410

410

 

 

    As you may know, STB and Leo are 2 of the mediums that are no longer good, nor competitive in this game today, and I have discovered, based on my experience and on general game play observations. SUrething The main reasons why I believe that they are underwhelming are the following:

 - STB: very poor gun handling, low top speed, low turret armor. 

 - Leopard: poor acceleration, very bad dispersion values, insufficient camouflage and view range.

    The reasons why I've considered these are because STB misses an awful amount of shells due to it's poor gun handling such as aiming time and dispersion while moving and traverse, plus that it's insufficient turret armor makes it unreliable for hull down positions, and the top speed is too low, considering that it does not carry that much armor. Leopard on the other hand, despite the fact that it has one of the best aiming time and accuracy while standing, it is absolutely trash when it comes to hitting on the move or while poking, and because of the bad gun dispersion values while moving and traverse, you often have to aim for an extended amount of time, putting you at risk of being shot at and missing your shells. The acceleration is very poor for a tank that only caries a paper armor, and the camouflage and view range are not sufficient for a tank like that, you need to see your enemies first and have a camouflage advantage too.

    I have personally tried them out with all combinations of equipment (standard + improved), skills and consumables, in the end, you can't quite suck that much out of it, especially with the STB.

 

    I propose the following changes in order to make them competitive and fun to play:

 - STB: reduce the aiming time to 1.95, reduce the dispersion while moving to 0.12, tank traverse to 0.12, turret traverse to 0.10, increase turret armor in front to 240, increase the top speed to 55.

 - Leopard: reduce dispersion values while moving to 0.13, tank traverse to 0.13, turret traverse to 0.06, increase view range to 430, increase the camouflage from (current 14.08 stationary and 10.55 moving) to (new 17.30 stationary and 14 while moving), increase engine Horse Power from current 830 to new 960.

 

***the tank values are considered as stock.



XxKuzkina_MatxX #2 Posted 10 March 2019 - 03:25 AM

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View PostWildcatze, on 10 March 2019 - 03:36 AM, said:

- STB: reduce the aiming time to 1.95, reduce the dispersion while moving to 0.12, tank traverse to 0.12, turret traverse to 0.10, increase turret armor in front to 240, increase the top speed to 55.

 

The STB already got good turret armor for a medium and it actually exceeds what you're proposing...

 

 

You list the patton in your table above, what'd be the point of playing it if the STB-1 gets buffed like this?



Wildcatze #3 Posted 10 March 2019 - 04:10 AM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 10 March 2019 - 04:25 AM, said:

 

The STB already got good turret armor for a medium and it actually exceeds what you're proposing...

 

 

You list the patton in your table above, what'd be the point of playing it if the STB-1 gets buffed like this?

 

The STB does not have good armor in the turret. It is very easy to pen by the standard apcr shells in tier 10 mediums almost all over the turret. A lot of shells go exactly on the gun line to the left and to the right, and beneath the gun too. The rest of the values which you see sideways are the extreme angles of the turret, which are very easily penned with HEAT and countered by a simple relocation 5 degrees to the side. From my experience of playing with it, I have concluded that the turret armor sounds good only on the paper, but it is actually very bad.

XxKuzkina_MatxX #4 Posted 10 March 2019 - 04:28 AM

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View PostWildcatze, on 10 March 2019 - 05:10 AM, said:

The STB does not have good armor in the turret. It is very easy to pen by the standard apcr shells in tier 10 mediums almost all over the turret. A lot of shells go exactly on the gun line to the left and to the right, and beneath the gun too. The rest of the values which you see sideways are the extreme angles of the turret, which are very easily penned with HEAT and countered by a simple relocation 5 degrees to the side. From my experience of playing with it, I have concluded that the turret armor sounds good only on the paper, but it is actually very bad.

 

So you want a +350mm turret armor, ok!

 

What about the patton? You don't want that in the game anymore?



MrEdweird #5 Posted 10 March 2019 - 04:35 AM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 10 March 2019 - 03:28 AM, said:

 

So you want a +350mm turret armor, ok!

 

What about the patton? You don't want that in the game anymore?

 

The problem with the turret is the mantlet, not the cheeks. Most guns at tier 9 and 10 can basically autopen it straight through the gun.

 

Also, WG mentioned that they might add hydropneumatic suspension to the STB-1.

They will likely do so after they implement that feature in the new Swedish mediums.

 

A more preferable situation for me would be removing the current tier 6, moving the Chi-Ri down (or keeping the tier 6 and making the Chi-Ri a prem), making the STA-1 be a faster Eagle 7 with less armor, giving the Type 61 the 90mm it actually had at tier 8, moving the STB-1 to tier 9 and giving it less DPM and adding the Type 74 (or STB-6) to tier X with appropriate changes to gun handling and the new suspension.


Edited by MrEdweird, 10 March 2019 - 04:38 AM.


Wildcatze #6 Posted 10 March 2019 - 04:40 AM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 10 March 2019 - 05:28 AM, said:

 

So you want a +350mm turret armor, ok!

 

What about the patton? You don't want that in the game anymore?

 

My friend,

 

In the current state, the patton has 254 mm of armor in front of the turret. As you go closer to the side ways of the turret, you get values like 350-600 mm of armor.

The STB currently has 195 mm, and as you go closer to the turret edges, you get values like 340-580. The edges to not matter, because they are extreme angles which no one is hitting when looking streight at you.

Talking just about patton and STB, since you've brought that in the discussion, if you hit the paton in it's flattest turret area, exept the cupola, which is a weak point that is present in stb, centurion and even amx30b, you get armor like 259, which is not very easy to pen with standard tier X medium apcr, however, on the STB, the flatest area on the turret has 240 mm, a lot easier to pen by most of the tier x medium apcr.

Maybe the suggestion I've mentioned for the armor increase is too big, if you consider so, then please offer another value.

03:44 Added after 4 minutes

View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 10 March 2019 - 05:28 AM, said:

 

So you want a +350mm turret armor, ok!

 

What about the patton? You don't want that in the game anymore?

 

I also see that you do not have the STB-1 in the garage, so you are lacking the experience of playing with it. It would be more constuctive if you would offer an opinion based on something that you have tried for yourself. Try it out on the test server while it is still live, go ahead and play some games with the STB and convince yourself how bad of a medium it is, especially it's turret armor.

XxKuzkina_MatxX #7 Posted 10 March 2019 - 05:13 AM

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View PostMrEdweird, on 10 March 2019 - 05:35 AM, said:

 

The problem with the turret is the mantlet, not the cheeks. Most guns at tier 9 and 10 can basically autopen it straight through the gun.

 

Can you show me the couple of pixels where it's an auto pen on tanks.gg?

 

View PostWildcatze, on 10 March 2019 - 05:40 AM, said:

In the current state, the patton has 254 mm of armor in front of the turret. As you go closer to the side ways of the turret, you get values like 350-600 mm of armor.

The STB currently has 195 mm, and as you go closer to the turret edges, you get values like 340-580. The edges to not matter, because they are extreme angles which no one is hitting when looking streight at you.

Talking just about patton and STB, since you've brought that in the discussion, if you hit the paton in it's flattest turret area, exept the cupola, which is a weak point that is present in stb, centurion and even amx30b, you get armor like 259, which is not very easy to pen with standard tier X medium apcr, however, on the STB, the flatest area on the turret has 240 mm, a lot easier to pen by most of the tier x medium apcr.

Maybe the suggestion I've mentioned for the armor increase is too big, if you consider so, then please offer another value.

 

So is it 195 or 240mm???

 

View PostWildcatze, on 10 March 2019 - 05:40 AM, said:

I also see that you do not have the STB-1 in the garage, so you are lacking the experience of playing with it. It would be more constuctive if you would offer an opinion based on something that you have tried for yourself. Try it out on the test server while it is still live, go ahead and play some games with the STB and convince yourself how bad of a medium it is, especially it's turret armor.

 

I don't need to try it, already have every tier 10 on my RU account. Questioning your proposal is constructive, why'd you want every single tier 10 medium the same?

 

The tank already got good DPM, some turret armor, good gun depression and good view range but you want more? Ok, i've no problem with that but how to differentiate one tier 10 mediums from another? How to make it fun to play, a good tank by specs while being unique and distinguishable from other tier 10 mediums?

 

Your proposal fails at this and that's why i am posting here trying to be constructive, my friend!



Beltalowda #8 Posted 10 March 2019 - 07:23 AM

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A lot of people are getting excited about buff's those UP vehicles and rightly so, but I think the right topic would be - What we do Not want to see changed !

 

Leopard 1 - I don't want to see the AMX 30B treatment to be applied to Leopard 1

STB 1 - I don't want to see Japanese version of Patton

 

Leo sacrifices everything for it's gun, so gun handling should be one of the best in class, it should also get penetration buff as well, view range up to 420, a bit more agile and camo rating buff

 

STB 1 - Accuracy of this tank is a real pain, better soft stats buff would make it an enjoyable tank to play and I would give it a bit better penetration as well.  

 

 



Gardar7 #9 Posted 10 March 2019 - 09:04 AM

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Adding siege mode (like swedish meds) would be a solution for STB-1. IRL it had hydraulic suspension, so it would be historically more accurate,and would make the tank more competitive. If it was my decision, I would just also change the name and model to Type 74. 



tankqull #10 Posted 10 March 2019 - 09:37 AM

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From my perspective the STB-1 has the problem that it is not capable of doing what it is ment to do once your opponents do have expierience.

by going hull down on  a ridge you are going to create a large area with ~220mm of required pen to be penned below the gun and even if you are not capable of penning your shell will be redirected into the 40mm hull deck giving you a sure pen...

on the otherside while beeing on plane ground youll have a gigantic cupola weakspot and a quite equally sized behind mantlet weakspot.

 

so my solution, increase the hulldeck under the turret from 40mm to 240mm aswell as the frontal turret ring. give the mantlet 30mm of armor to have 270mm of frontal armor.

decrease amining time to 2.01-2.05, decrease gun-softstats by 0.01.

 

 

the Leo changes are quite easy, reduce gun dispersion on traverse and movement to 0.13 and give it batchat like mobility.


Edited by tankqull, 10 March 2019 - 09:39 AM.


hasnainrakha57 #11 Posted 10 March 2019 - 10:49 AM

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Yes give Stb 1 more turret armor and better gun handling only after these pic

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tajj7 #12 Posted 10 March 2019 - 11:04 AM

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Buffing the turret armour of these tanks is pointless, they either powercreep other tanks (i.e Cent AX/Fatton) or they remain worse versions of those tanks.

 

So hopefully WG will take a different approach, with the STB-1 that is apparently going to be a siege mode similar to the new Swedish mediums line.

 

For the Leopard 1 they need to make it the ultimate sniper med, so IMO that is alpha buff, shell velocity buff, penetration buff, accuracy buff, aim time buff, turret dispersion buff. 



demon_tank #13 Posted 10 March 2019 - 11:38 AM

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Lets buff the STB and make it the single most best tier 10 medium. Cause thats it where it goings with the big buffs people are suggesting.

Dr_Oolen #14 Posted 10 March 2019 - 11:41 AM

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TBH i personally dont quite even know how to best buff stb so that it has some speciality. All the T10 meds are generally copypastas and bad gameplay design by WG. Lets see what even is at T10.

 

- 430U "alpha+brawling+armor" -> doesnt really even have a downside apart from "accuracy and dpm" which arent even bad enough for what it has otherwise, but a valid role; nerf gun handling and aimtime to 121 levels

 

- 140 "dpm+hulldown+good at everything" -> fine, is good enough for all that, no problem with there being meds that can do everything

 

- t62 "dpm+turret+good at everything" -> after 140 buff has no purpose; needs a new role/redesign - i guess something like "less dpm, but much better gun handling than 140 and significantly faster" - so nerf dpm, buff dispersions/aimtime, buff top speed and hp/t

 

- k91 "dpm+camo+sniperino+low alpha" -> isnt better at those than other tonks sufficiently and is bad; but valid role; to actually be better at its role than other tanks needs better accuracy (something like 0.28) and even more dpm

 

- 121 "alpha+brawling+dpm+weakish armor" -> overall characteristics not good enough for that, but valid role; buff gun handling to 430U levels and buff dpm a bit

 

- 30b "dpm+??" -> what even is this tank? mix of characteristics that dont work at all; lets say its supposed to be "high dpm + medium range support + gun handling" but it doesnt work in that role because it has super potato penetration/shell velocity/accuracy -> to work at medium range but not long range (i suppose thats what wg intended) it still needs way better gun handling and penetration so that it actually hits and pens something... so give it back 268/330 pen and buff dispersions on hull movement/traverse by 30-40%, keep potato accuracy and shell velocity; will basically be a faster less armored patton with more dpm and less long range capability

 

- batchat "autoloader+light tank hybrid" -> is fine as is, maybe aimtime could be buffed a bit

 

- centurion "hulldown+good at everything+more towards the long range stuff" -> if it werent for all the powercreep would be fine as is; to make it better at its supposed role - buff aimtime and accuracy

 

- progetto "autoreloader+sniperino" -> is fine as is

 

- e50m "sniperino+hull armor+kinda good at everything" -> like what even is this tank these days and what role could it even do? 430U is the armored medium with even hull armor, there are better sniperinos and better jack of all trades meds... I still think it could fit in some niche of "can do everything and focused on armor and reliable gun" and in that role it has to differentiate itself from patton/centurion/30b... it doesnt have the dpm nor turret (30b ehm) of either of those, so thats good; so i guess only the gun itself isnt sufficiently more reliable than the gun on those and it could have more reliable hull than now... so i guess it could get something like better accuracy (0.27), a bit better dispersions, maybe 280 pen and some minor armor buffs so that the turret/hull is still "easy" pen for T10 but that it can bully T8/9 tanks more like E50 can?

 

- leopard "fast+sniperino" -> lmao, isnt even better at those things compared to other tanks; could/should be the "low dpm+high alpha+super laser gun" -> 440 alpha, lower dpm, much better aimtime, much better accuracy (0.2 or even better), 288 pen, higher shell velocity

 

- m48 "hulldown+good at everything+more towards close range" -> fine as is

 

- stb "hulldown+dpm" -> cent/m48 are already better hulldown tanks with "close enough" dpm; is anything really missing in terms of roles? Maybe hulldown tanks dont need to have immune turrets? Maybe it could be made the hulldownier of all hulldown tanks due to its gun depression and ability to reposition? I guess it could get the hydropneumatic supension that would give it, say 13° gun depression and then give it better overall mobility/maneuvrability with a bit better dispersions? So basically centurion level dispersions, but significantly worse accuracy, aimtime and armor; but more dpm, more gun depression and more mobility/maneuvrability?

 

- tvp "autoloader+dpm" -> still mostly fine as is, but all the armor powercreep made its penetration quite lacking -> buff pen from 248/310 to 258/315

 

EDIT: just to clarify where i think current balance is - id consider m48 and 140 the most balanced T10 meds currently (as in, thats what in the current meta the average T10 medium should be performing like), followed by batchat, progetto and TVP. 430U being the only OP one but still being less OP than the remaining meds are UP.


Edited by Dr_Oolen, 10 March 2019 - 12:09 PM.


fwhaatpiraat #15 Posted 10 March 2019 - 12:09 PM

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If we keep buffing tanks (especially tier x tanks), the problem doesn't get solved, it only gets shifted and becomes even worse. Not playing 'meta tanks' punishes you more than ever. Many people only play the strongest tanks, combined with the best ammo and consumables. If you can't keep up with that or don't like such mentality, you will be dragging your team down severely.

Tbh I'm really pessimistic for the future of WoT regarding balance. Imbalance is the way to make money for WG. In the past 6 years 9 out of 10 new vehicles or balance changes have been in line with "harder, better, faster, stronger". Only rarely vehicles get introduced with real vulnerabilities and aren't contributing to power creep. Nobody plays them ofcourse "since those vehicles suck" and "objects x, y and z are much better at it", hence my pessimism.

"Stop playing then." This seems to be the only way to deal with it. Or maybe I should embrace it: playing with flavour of the month tanks is so much fun, dynamic and satisfying, versus the guys that can't compete. Undo the nerfs of 268.4 pls! (And stb-1 too)

Edited by fwhaatpiraat, 10 March 2019 - 12:11 PM.


Nishi_Kinuyo #16 Posted 10 March 2019 - 12:13 PM

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View PostDr_Oolen, on 10 March 2019 - 11:41 AM, said:

- stb "hulldown+dpm" -> cent/m48 are already better hulldown tanks with "close enough" dpm; is anything really missing in terms of roles? Maybe hulldown tanks dont need to have immune turrets? Maybe it could be made the hulldownier of all hulldown tanks due to its gun depression and ability to reposition? I guess it could get the hydropneumatic supension that would give it, say 13° gun depression and then give it better overall mobility/maneuvrability with a bit better dispersions? So basically centurion level dispersions, but significantly worse accuracy, aimtime and armor; but more dpm, more gun depression and more mobility/maneuvrability?

Afaik, the actual Type 74 gets -14 with hydropneumatic suspension.

Also, according to the Japanese Wikipedia article, the STB-1 came with a semi-autoloader, which was scrapped for later prototypes and final production model.



Enthyos #17 Posted 10 March 2019 - 12:19 PM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 10 March 2019 - 04:13 AM, said:

 

Can you show me the couple of pixels where it's an auto pen on tanks.gg?

 

 

So is it 195 or 240mm???

 

 

I don't need to try it, already have every tier 10 on my RU account. Questioning your proposal is constructive, why'd you want every single tier 10 medium the same?

 

The tank already got good DPM, some turret armor, good gun depression and good view range but you want more? Ok, i've no problem with that but how to differentiate one tier 10 mediums from another? How to make it fun to play, a good tank by specs while being unique and distinguishable from other tier 10 mediums?

 

Your proposal fails at this and that's why i am posting here trying to be constructive, my friend!

 

Hey there Kuzkina_MatxX, i cant reffrain from tossing my 2 cents on the table...

Your logic is faulty here, you are basicaly saying "i dont need to try something to be able to form an opinion about it" Does that sound right to you?

The fact that you have the tank in your garage doesnt mean you know much about it, its like saying " i do have hair on my head and body so that makes me a hair-specialist." Absolutley not !

 

You mention the Patton, sure the Patton needs a bit of refinement in certain aspects but buffing weak tanks should be a main concern for everyone. You grind your [edited]up to tier 10 only to find out that 140 does it better...

On the same note, there are many Tier 10 tanks that need a touch of love, E50M / Leopard 1/  30B  the STB.

There are many ways this can be approched, and feel free to propose stuff to the Wargaming Teams, that's what forums are for.

 

The concept of STB was supposed to bring a tank that can do everything at a decent level,the fact that it can be penned straight on its turrent by standard APCR, when the STB is not on par with other tanks has to make one rise an eyebraw.

 

Bottom line, you aint proposing a solution, you are here to bash and throw arguments left and right. I happen to agree with the OP, the Leo and STB need some love, period.



XxKuzkina_MatxX #18 Posted 10 March 2019 - 01:05 PM

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View PostEnthyos, on 10 March 2019 - 01:19 PM, said:

 

Hey there Kuzkina_MatxX, i cant refrain from tossing my 2 cents on the table...

Your logic is faulty here, you are basically saying "i don't need to try something to be able to form an opinion about it" Does that sound right to you?

The fact that you have the tank in your garage doesn't mean you know much about it, its like saying " i do have hair on my head and body so that makes me a hair-specialist." Absolutely not !

 

I don't need to try it because i have the tank on my RU account with a good 150 battles in it. That's what i wrote, right?

 

Maybe you didn't take your time to read my post or understand it clearly.

 

View PostEnthyos, on 10 March 2019 - 01:19 PM, said:

You mention the Patton, sure the Patton needs a bit of refinement in certain aspects but buffing weak tanks should be a main concern for everyone. You grind your [edited]up to tier 10 only to find out that 140 does it better...

On the same note, there are many Tier 10 tanks that need a touch of love, E50M / Leopard 1/  30B  the STB.

 

I didn't say the patton needs a buff, it's perfect as it is. I said that it's tasteless IMO to make the STB-1 a japanese copy of the patton. There need to be some difference between tier 10 mediums. If the proposed changes in the OP were applied to the STB-1 what'd be the reason to play the patton or for it to be even in the game?

 

The 140 is a good tank but personally i think the patton is much better but that's beside the point of this thread.

 

 

View PostEnthyos, on 10 March 2019 - 01:19 PM, said:

There are many ways this can be approched, and feel free to propose stuff to the Wargaming Teams, that's what forums are for.

 

The concept of STB was supposed to bring a tank that can do everything at a decent level,the fact that it can be penned straight on its turrent by standard APCR, when the STB is not on par with other tanks has to make one rise an eyebraw.

 

Bottom line, you aint proposing a solution, you are here to bash and throw arguments left and right. I happen to agree with the OP, the Leo and STB need some love, period.

 

I don't have to provide a solution to your problem or propose a different scheme to buff the tank and it's my right to argue against an idea if i thought it's wrong and i happen to disagree. 12 people voted in the poll above and 50% of them are against buffing the STB this way so you can either come with a better logic or don't bother.



PayMore #19 Posted 10 March 2019 - 01:11 PM

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Make leo1 like a combination of 907, type5 & t95/4201 + the speed of ebr 105 with boost mechanic. Why ask of 0.001% better turret armour etc.  

HundeWurst #20 Posted 10 March 2019 - 01:20 PM

    Brigadier

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    02-06-2012

Well both tanks are major turds these days so yeah improvements are very much needed....

Here is what I would do to them.

 

Leopard 1 - This is supposed to be a mobile sniper tank. Quick to relocate, and able to reliable pick about any tank out there apart from range. The real life philosphy of that tank goes right with it. Have the first shot, and the retreat or reposition due to the problem that HEAT was defeating any kind of armor in that area. Having armor was not actually any beneficial than to have in an asymetrical warfare.

So lets make the Leopard 1 unique and close to what it was supposed to be in realilty - the uniqueness will come from the fact that the softstats will stay pathetic but it will be the most capable tank in long range engagement - not that this is usefull very often anyway.

The only buff will be applied to the gun (all values are the nominal basis: old value, new value, difference):

Accuracy: 0.3m / 01.m / -0.2m

Aimtime: 2sec / 0.8sec / -1.2 sec

Shell velocity: ~1500m/s / 1750m/s / +250m/s

Either:

Penetration values: 268/330/xx / 290/355/xx

Or:

Alpha damage: 390/390/480 / 420/420/520

 

Now Leopard 1 is in a unique spot (what seems to be most important for WG apparently), yet balanced. It still cannot fire on the move, but the second it comes to a hold it gets lightning fast aimspeed, actual good accuracy and high shell velocity for sniping.

(By the way, something like that could as well be done with the E50m, only that I would buff penetration values and alpha damage for that tank.)

 

 


Edited by HundeWurst, 10 March 2019 - 01:20 PM.






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