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Massive mistake of WG to give new players tier 8

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Shypax #1 Posted 13 March 2019 - 04:55 PM

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why wargaming,  why do you make rental tanks

you make a game mode, specific for tier 8 tanks, to take the massive amounts of premium tanks out of the normal queue , which is fine .
why on earth do you make so that every single noob with a few 100k worth of credit can participate?? why do you make it so that if a rental player dies within 30 sec because he has NO IDEA what he is doing in  tier 8 battles , he is now locking up a spot for a useful player??? , why do you make it so hard to defend when you spawn everyone futhest back in the zone but place the flag zones behind hills and terrain and therefore making it impossible to make it back to decap ?

you had the chance to make a fantastic game mode, all you had to do was not give every single player access to it 
there should be a minimum of 2 owned tier 8s and atleast 500 battles played in such tanks .

im not a pro player, i play casually , but i HATE wasting my time with horrible teams , i hate getting into a game with ZERO skill based match making, how is it fair to match a player with 50k games vs one with 500 games in the same game? its laughable at best, you are right now seeing falling numbers in players, you have to release all new premium tanks with marathons otherwise people wont bother to play, you refuse to do anything about afking and bots, frontline is amazing and good fun ,but its sooo unbalanced its beyond mindblowing, and good job making all frontline servers lag with wheeled tanks avalible , so you cannot hit them , that was a great move also .

 

TL;DR , fix your damn game its pathethic .


 



bnmm113 #2 Posted 13 March 2019 - 05:26 PM

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Because showing new players a candy they can't reach is cruel?

I don't have problems with potatoes (I am a potato only in randoms, in FL I am quite good)

I think it is nice to be able to play FL as a new player who is learning what can be done if a good player is mentoring you on a big map...



Noo_Noo #3 Posted 13 March 2019 - 05:41 PM

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In one way rentals are a good idea. 

They can rent a tier 8 before buying a tier 8 premum. 

At least they can then see what they're up against and can make a more informed decision before buying that Skorpion G. Some may actually think about it and decide to play a bit more at tier 4, 5 and 6 for a while.

Shypax #4 Posted 13 March 2019 - 06:26 PM

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View Postbnmm113, on 13 March 2019 - 04:26 PM, said:

Because showing new players a candy they can't reach is cruel?

I don't have problems with potatoes (I am a potato only in randoms, in FL I am quite good)

I think it is nice to be able to play FL as a new player who is learning what can be done if a good player is mentoring you on a big map...

 

because its harsh on them , they get a completely wrong impression of what high tier games is , they have useless crew skills so they just end up dying without knowing they were spotted, vs guys in defenders with a near max crew grinding out cash .
i think there could be a front line mode with lower tiers , 1-3 -3-5 - 5-7 , but i think placing a guy with 100 games in a game with 30 enemys/multiple use consumables, and everyone has a better crew than you so you have zero chance of spotting anything trying to kill you .

 

View PostNoo_Noo, on 13 March 2019 - 04:41 PM, said:

In one way rentals are a good idea. 

They can rent a tier 8 before buying a tier 8 premum. 

At least they can then see what they're up against and can make a more informed decision before buying that Skorpion G. Some may actually think about it and decide to play a bit more at tier 4, 5 and 6 for a while.

i do not mind them renting a premium , i wish this was an option , one time rent of 24 hours for 100k credits on a premium so you actually have a chance of testing out what your buying , but in normal games. not frontline
if i look at it from a long time player - i hope they dont just buy scorp G and faceroll
if i look at it from a new player - i would think theres no way to compete vs a scorp G , bly*tmobile , defender and such without either spamming gold constantly, or buying prems , or just quit the game , because why the f*ck bother playing if your gonna get obliterated by people in op prems constantly and in every single game .



Bracciano_gatto #5 Posted 13 March 2019 - 06:53 PM

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OP, if WG were to limit tier accessibility based on results, I doubt you would be allowed to play anything over tier 5.

 

Live and let live I say ! Potato or not !

 

Nothing personal, just numbers.


Edited by Bracciano_gatto, 13 March 2019 - 06:53 PM.


Shypax #6 Posted 13 March 2019 - 06:57 PM

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View PostBracciano_gatto, on 13 March 2019 - 05:53 PM, said:

OP, if WG were to limit tier accessibility based on results, I doubt you would be allowed to play anything over tier 5.

 

Live and let live I say ! Potato or not !

 

Nothing personal, just numbers.

i was under no illusion that im a good player at all , didnt say access to tier based on skill ,but match maker based on skill, so if your a potato tier 10 your playing vs other potatos .
i enjoy playing my pz 1c , but seal clubbing in lower tiers isnt very fun tbh, but it would be massive amounts of fun if i were to play vs people around my skill level .

MM based on skill would prevent, seal clubbing, re rolling, afk players, wasted games.
it will give much more enjoyable games , much longer games, and would be way less fustrating .



ThorgrimBrenadim #7 Posted 14 March 2019 - 12:07 AM

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Wargamming could have run a FL for tier 5 players with a few premium tanks maybe first a low tier then the last would be a nice tier 8 premium. Giving rental tanks at tier 8 for players who have zero clue is not fair on the team they are on yes enemy can farm them for xp but really how likely are some of these to be able to get the bottom two tanks on offer.

It would be so much better for them to have lower lvl premiums with the top being a tier 8 as that way they learn the game and if they put the effort in will get the tier 8 and by then have a reasonable idea how to play it and not die immediately.



7thSyndicate #8 Posted 14 March 2019 - 02:53 AM

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I dont agree with new players playing t8 in randoms, but in Frontline i just dont think it is a problem..

Shypax #9 Posted 14 March 2019 - 08:21 AM

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View Post7thSyndicate, on 14 March 2019 - 01:53 AM, said:

I dont agree with new players playing t8 in randoms, but in Frontline i just dont think it is a problem..

 

thing is , if you only have 1 tier 8 , lets say the tier 8 t-44FL , and they die within the first minute of the game , he is now stuck dead cause he cant pick a new tier 8, and he is basically an afk player.

Noo_Noo #10 Posted 14 March 2019 - 10:06 AM

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View PostShypax, on 13 March 2019 - 06:26 PM, said:

 

because its harsh on them , they get a completely wrong impression of what high tier games is , they have useless crew skills so they just end up dying without knowing they were spotted, vs guys in defenders with a near max crew grinding out cash .
i think there could be a front line mode with lower tiers , 1-3 -3-5 - 5-7 , but i think placing a guy with 100 games in a game with 30 enemys/multiple use consumables, and everyone has a better crew than you so you have zero chance of spotting anything trying to kill you .

 

i do not mind them renting a premium , i wish this was an option , one time rent of 24 hours for 100k credits on a premium so you actually have a chance of testing out what your buying , but in normal games. not frontline
if i look at it from a long time player - i hope they dont just buy scorp G and faceroll
if i look at it from a new player - i would think theres no way to compete vs a scorp G , bly*tmobile , defender and such without either spamming gold constantly, or buying prems , or just quit the game , because why the f*ck bother playing if your gonna get obliterated by people in op prems constantly and in every single game .

 

Yeah I think you're right but would add that they don't have the in game understanding of why they're failing either. I would actually say a large proportion of the player base has that but they don't have the skills as you rightly say either. There is little in game help to understand why you just been obliterated by something you cant see or being clipped out by an autoloader. 

For me the problem is pretty fundamental. WG do not look after the player base. They do not nurture it, try to maintain it and basically look after it. If WG were gardeners they would throw a few seeds in a hole, water it once and tell it to "grow ya bast***" and walkaway and not do anything else. 

I would have thought there's some logic to restrict new players to the low tier premiums and when they pass a certain milestone allow them to buy the tier 6's and then the tier 7 and 8's etc. It encourages them to play. They may not become good players but they will at least have some experience. It doesn't however stop someone rushing the tiers which is another issue. 

RE your post on skill based MM. That doesn't work because there's no way of separating a skilled player from a poor player when they are playing equally skilled opponents. For example if a good player plays other good players what will there WR be? Around the average 50% or whatever, there's nothing to make them different from each other. Same with lower skilled players. Their WR again moves to the average. Then your back at square 1 trying to figure out how to separate them. 

facmanpob #11 Posted 14 March 2019 - 10:30 AM

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View PostNoo_Noo, on 14 March 2019 - 10:06 AM, said:

 

Yeah I think you're right but would add that they don't have the in game understanding of why they're failing either. I would actually say a large proportion of the player base has that but they don't have the skills as you rightly say either. There is little in game help to understand why you just been obliterated by something you cant see or being clipped out by an autoloader. 

For me the problem is pretty fundamental. WG do not look after the player base. They do not nurture it, try to maintain it and basically look after it. If WG were gardeners they would throw a few seeds in a hole, water it once and tell it to "grow ya bast***" and walkaway and not do anything else. 
 

This is the issue. But, contrary to what most people think (not necessarily you), simply passing some arbitrary milestone of having played a certain number of games is not the answer. I say this from the standpoint of having worked in the education sector since 2002. Understanding does not come simply through repetition. Understanding comes through advice, feedback and reflection. That is why there are teachers!

 

Sadly, most people never seek feedback about their actions, never look for advice on how to play better, and never reflect on what they did well or badly in a game (simply clicking battle again as quickly as possible).

 

I was this player in early 2018 - I had 810 battles, 44.4% WR and 360 WN8 and generally had no idea why I had just died or what I was doing wrong. I came back to the game after some time playing WoWS and other things, and made a conscious decision to learn to be better. I watched 4TankersAndDog, Taugrim and other good 'teaching' streamers/youtubers. I read about the tanks I was playing, looked a map advice tutorials and I made a decision to think about how I could have avoided dying every time I did. Since I started my 'learning journey' my average WR has risen to 48.6% (51.2% over the last 1300 battles according to Wotlabs) and my average WN8 is steadily climbing (and was almost 1k in the week before this episode of FL). Now, I'm not saying I'm the 'next great thing' or anything, I am, however, well on the way to being Mr Average. In all of that journey from potato to middle-of-the-road, WG has had zero help or input. Everything I have learned has come from community contributors.

 

Now here's the important thing: had I not made a conscious decision to learn, I would still have played those additional games, but I would still be a complete potato player. I say again, simply playing more battles does not magically make someone better at the game!


Edited by facmanpob, 14 March 2019 - 10:30 AM.


Noo_Noo #12 Posted 14 March 2019 - 11:01 AM

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View Postfacmanpob, on 14 March 2019 - 10:30 AM, said:

This is the issue. But, contrary to what most people think (not necessarily you), simply passing some arbitrary milestone of having played a certain number of games is not the answer. I say this from the standpoint of having worked in the education sector since 2002. Understanding does not come simply through repetition. Understanding comes through advice, feedback and reflection. That is why there are teachers!

 

Sadly, most people never seek feedback about their actions, never look for advice on how to play better, and never reflect on what they did well or badly in a game (simply clicking battle again as quickly as possible).

 

I was this player in early 2018 - I had 810 battles, 44.4% WR and 360 WN8 and generally had no idea why I had just died or what I was doing wrong. I came back to the game after some time playing WoWS and other things, and made a conscious decision to learn to be better. I watched 4TankersAndDog, Taugrim and other good 'teaching' streamers/youtubers. I read about the tanks I was playing, looked a map advice tutorials and I made a decision to think about how I could have avoided dying every time I did. Since I started my 'learning journey' my average WR has risen to 48.6% (51.2% over the last 1300 battles according to Wotlabs) and my average WN8 is steadily climbing (and was almost 1k in the week before this episode of FL). Now, I'm not saying I'm the 'next great thing' or anything, I am, however, well on the way to being Mr Average. In all of that journey from potato to middle-of-the-road, WG has had zero help or input. Everything I have learned has come from community contributors.

 

Now here's the important thing: had I not made a conscious decision to learn, I would still have played those additional games, but I would still be a complete potato player. I say again, simply playing more battles does not magically make someone better at the game!

 

I did a similar thing. Simply rushed the tiers to the T95, American TD because it looked cool and that was the tank for me. I was utterly clueless. So when I got owned yet again I went back to tier 4 and played the T40 relentlessly for quite some time. It was OP and again I didn't really learn anything. Then something clicked and and I started to play and learn other tanks. 

I developed quite well until a forced absence from the game stunted my progress. I'm trying to catch back up again now but fully appreciate that I'll never be a "good" player. I will be decent in certain tanks etc. I do like to think that I have a decent understanding of the game though, I'm just not very good at putting it into practice. 

BSHDBCG #13 Posted 14 March 2019 - 12:06 PM

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View PostShypax, on 13 March 2019 - 04:55 PM, said:

why wargaming,  why do you make rental tanks
 

 

The real mistake is giving them only 1, such that they have to wait 5 minutes before they can spawn in it again. That cripples the team even more than anything else combined in this mode.

 

Personally I know that the learning curve for tier 8 might be steep, but at the same time you learn more about the game at the same time as it is more punishing. Afterall a burned kid learn to stay away from the fire, if the sting from the fire was hard enough.



Shypax #14 Posted 14 March 2019 - 01:54 PM

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View PostBSHDBCG, on 14 March 2019 - 11:06 AM, said:

 

The real mistake is giving them only 1, such that they have to wait 5 minutes before they can spawn in it again. That cripples the team even more than anything else combined in this mode.

 

Personally I know that the learning curve for tier 8 might be steep, but at the same time you learn more about the game at the same time as it is more punishing. Afterall a burned kid learn to stay away from the fire, if the sting from the fire was hard enough.

 

i could not agree more, its pathethic to take a complete noob, put him in a tier 8 , let him get nuked 30s into the game, and now hes useless for the next 5 mins, and then he returns and yet again same thing happens, so he end up wasting 15-30mins of his time , learn nothing, get nothing and quit cause he just wasted all his credits on a rental , ..


TO EVERYONE ELSE ,

completely agree, wargaming is terrible at teaching anything to new players, and everything i know is from friends or youtube basically,
its bothers me to see a game like WG spend so much on premium tanks development and then let their game die completely, instead of focusing on ACTUALLY making your game better, less rushed less idiotic , it seems to me every time wargaming does something its never though out, its always a half baked stupid idea to get some premium tanks sold , or force people to play WOT to get a premium, which demands you play stupidly much so people just burn out on it ..

GJ wargaming ,you tend to have a chance to make the right choice time and time again ,yet you continue to take the wrong turn , i do not know who makes the call , but whoever is doing it right now , is without a doubt killing wargaming , how well do you think your companys stock is going to be if WOT dies out  completly cause nobody cares about it , and is just waiting for a game thats marginally better .. please start listening to content creators, or public opnion, or you are going to  loose everything ..



pecopad #15 Posted 14 March 2019 - 02:57 PM

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Its not a marathon if the game isn't filled with red players with aimbots grinding the rewards...

Bordhaw #16 Posted 14 March 2019 - 07:21 PM

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View PostShypax, on 13 March 2019 - 03:55 PM, said:

why wargaming,  why do you make rental tanks

you had the chance to make a fantastic game mode, all you had to do was not give every single player access to it 
there should be a minimum of 2 owned tier 8s and atleast 500 battles played in such tanks .

 

 

It does cause an issue when you Tab on the players in your zone and see under five players left. The presumption being those that have been killed don;t have another Tier 8 and cannot respawn and actively contribute to winning the battle. 

 



Shypax #17 Posted 15 March 2019 - 07:41 AM

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View PostBordhaw, on 14 March 2019 - 06:21 PM, said:

 

It does cause an issue when you Tab on the players in your zone and see under five players left. The presumption being those that have been killed don;t have another Tier 8 and cannot respawn and actively contribute to winning the battle. 

 

 

it basically no matter how well you play , if you have more noobs with rentals your gonna loose, regardless of what you do . cant outpreform an entire team

Black_Coyote #18 Posted 15 March 2019 - 11:16 AM

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View PostShypax, on 15 March 2019 - 08:41 AM, said:

 

it basically no matter how well you play , if you have more noobs with rentals your gonna loose, regardless of what you do . cant outpreform an entire team

 

The problem is that they have only 1 tank an when they die there isn't another one for respawn and they have to wait couple of minutes. In meantime the team fight without this players.



Shypax #19 Posted 16 March 2019 - 11:08 AM

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View PostBlack_Coyote, on 15 March 2019 - 10:16 AM, said:

 

The problem is that they have only 1 tank an when they die there isn't another one for respawn and they have to wait couple of minutes. In meantime the team fight without this players.

 

this, so much this, its just a roll of the dice, how many noobs with 1 rental tier 8 are gonna be on your team .

 



Liquiel #20 Posted 16 March 2019 - 08:25 PM

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Wouldn't the solution be to limit Frontline to people with at least two Tier VIII tanks?

That way, the destruction of one tank does not automatically mean 5 minutes waiting time.







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