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POLL: Leopard 1 rebalance suggestions 2019

rebalance leopard 1 update 2019

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Poll: Leopard 1 rebalancing - a unique sniper (52 members have cast votes)

You have to complete 250 battles in order to participate this poll.

READ FIRST BELOW! Which one would you choose?

  1. The Snap shooting sniper ! (23 votes [44.23%])

    Percentage of vote: 44.23%

  2. The True sniper ! (25 votes [48.08%])

    Percentage of vote: 48.08%

  3. My own buff suggestion and I will share it ! (4 votes [7.69%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.69%

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SanDManN_ #1 Posted 13 March 2019 - 08:30 PM

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What if WG would just change the tank into Leopard 1A1A1 prototype with 120 mm L/44 gun with following stats. Which one would you choose? A snappier sniper with smaller bloom while moving (maybe better for current meta/peek-a-booming) or a sniper with greater bloom but better stationary gun abilities (perhaps more unique). Feel free to tell your opinion and buff suggestions!

 

"Prominent variants of the Leopard 1 included the 1A1. It had a stabilized main gun fitted with a new thermal sleeve to reduce warping and maintain accuracy, improved tracks and armored skirts to protect the tracks and wheels. The most important update was the all-electric stabilization system designed by Cadillac-Cage.

The 1A1A1 featured the addition of armor made of reinforced steel plate. This was developed by Blohm & Voss for the turret, gun mantlet and forward section of the hull. The additional add-on armor consisted of flexibly mounted, screwed-on armor steel plates with two faced-rubbed lining and the armor also covered the turret bustle back. The gun shield was also reinforced with armor steel plates and in addition, armor steel plates were welded on the to the sloped front roof section.

For trial purposes, Rheinmetall has fitted one German Army Leopard 1 series main battle tank with the 120 mm smoothbore gun. Prototypes were based on a Leopard 1A1A1 tank. When fitted with the 120 mm smoothbore gun, 42 rounds were carried."

 

New gun: Rheinmetall Rh-120 L/44

                                                             Snap shooting sniper          /            True sniper

Caliber (105 mm) ->                                                                    120 mm

Rate of fire (6,90 rounds/min) ->                                          6,25 rounds/min

Penetration (268/330/53) ->                                                 288/340/68 mm

Damage (390/390/480)                                                   440/360 or 440*/530 (*with 440 alpha max 12 rounds)

Damage per minute (2690)                                                           2750

Dispersion at 100m (0,30) ->                                    0,30                 /               0,25

Aiming time (1,90 s) ->                                            1,70 s               /               1,50 s

Values with 100% crew:

Rate of fire (7,19 rounds/min) ->                                          6,52 rounds/min

Reload time (8,34 s) ->                                                                 9,2 s

Aiming time (1,82 s) ->                                           1,63 s               /                 1,44 s

Dispersion (0,29) ->                                                0,29                  /                 0,24

Damage per minute (2805) ->                                                     2868

 

Dispersion values with 100% crew:

… moving (0,17) ->                                                0,10                  /                  0,13

… tank traverse (0,17) ->                                       0,10                  /                  0,13

… turret traverse (0,08) ->                                     0,08                  /                  0,05

 

Gun shell Specs

Gun caliber             105 -> 120 mm

Module damage     150 -> 165

Ammo capacity        60 -> 42

Standard APCR

Damage per shot    390 -> 440

Penetration             268 -> 288 mm

Shell velocity          1478 -> 1650 m/s

Special/Premium/Gold HEAT

Damage per shot    390 -> 360 or 440* (*440 with max special ammo capacity of 12 rounds)

Penetration             330 -> 340 mm

Shell velocity          1173 -> 1140 m/s

Standard HE

Damage per shot    480 -> 530

Penetration             53 -> 68 mm

Shell velocity          1173 -> 1140 m/s

Explosion radius     1,91 -> 2,49 m

 

Survivability (1A1A1 variant)

The cosmetic changes to hull and turret of the 1A1A1 variant with little tweaks to armor profile:

1) Additional turret armor bolted onto the turret (creating air space), which would equal to 15-20 mm of spaced turret armor. This would protect the tanks from HEAT/HESH/HE (and it would make people think twice to spam premium rounds into the turret of a paper tank).

2) Add new side skirts to protect the upper tracks, which would equal to 5-10 mm of spaced armor.

3) Maybe safer ammo rack location.

These additions to armor wouldn’t change tanks weakness to AP and APCR shells and it would remain as a paper tank.

 

Mobility (1A1A1 variant: improved tracks would lower terrain resist values, though additional armor would increase weight)

Weight                      40,000 -> 42,200

Power/weight            20,75 -> 19,67

Terrain resist (hard)   0,77 -> 0,58

Terrain resist (med)   0,86 -> 0,67

Terrain resist (soft)    1,73 -> 1,44

 

Concealment

It's a big tank - no changes.

 

Spotting (optional)

View range 410 -> 420 m (Leopard 1 should be able to do his own spotting – and at the moment 410 m isn’t so special anymore.)

 


Edited by SanDManN_, 11 April 2019 - 09:30 PM.


PayMore #2 Posted 13 March 2019 - 08:57 PM

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God idea, but Leopard 1 should be made teir 8 where it belongs and the new tier 10 should be an east-german obj 907.

 



Strizi #3 Posted 13 March 2019 - 09:07 PM

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The german t10 meds cant be buffed or they will be op. Fascist tanks are not allowed to stand a chance against mighty russian tanks. Besides that: making leopard a true sniper would be a nice id but it also should have better dispersion than t100 light. (And buff e50m dpm to make both t10s good :bajan::popcorn:)


Edited by Strizi, 13 March 2019 - 09:09 PM.


XxKuzkina_MatxX #4 Posted 13 March 2019 - 09:34 PM

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Nope, all it needs is a buff to the gun's soft stats and maybe better terrain resistances. What's wrong with that?

Cobra6 #5 Posted 14 March 2019 - 08:37 AM

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Basically increase the gun handling so you don't need to aim for 5 minutes.....And buff the DPM, the is the only thing it needs.

 

The rest is fine.

 

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arthurwellsley #6 Posted 14 March 2019 - 08:48 AM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 13 March 2019 - 08:34 PM, said:

Nope, all it needs is a buff to the gun's soft stats and maybe better terrain resistances. What's wrong with that?

 

View PostCobra6, on 14 March 2019 - 07:37 AM, said:

Basically increase the gun handling so you don't need to aim for 5 minutes.....And buff the DPM, the is the only thing it needs.

 

The rest is fine.

 

Cobra 6

 

To echo the above. All the Leopard 1 needs is a buff to gun handling, and maybe dpm. Does not need a larger calibre gun.

HerrWizo #7 Posted 14 March 2019 - 08:56 AM

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Agreed, gun handling and DPM increase are the only two things required. The rest is actually fine.

tajj7 #8 Posted 14 March 2019 - 10:15 AM

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A gun handling and DPM buff would not make it competitive IMO. It would still be worse than say the Russian meds which have DPM and gun handling, but also armour.

 

Or the M48 Patton, which has DPM, gun handling and turret armour. Or the STB-1 which is also getting a buff, which also has turret armour and very high DPM. Unless it was extreme it probably wouldn't make it better than the Cent AX either, which is an average tank but still has turret armour so is going to be more effective than a Leo and is almost as mobile, almost as accurate, has the same gun etc.

 

Plus it makes it generic and boring.

 

It needs buffing so its the ultimate mobile sniper, and make it stand out compared to the other NATO meds.

 

So IMO -

 

  • Alpha buff to like 450, you don't need to change the gun because WG pretty much makes up alpha these days and gun calibre seems to matter less.
  • DPM down from 2.8k to about 2.5k 
  • Accuracy from 0.29 to 0.24.
  • Penetration from 268mm to 285mm.
  • Movement/Tank traverse dispersions from 0.17/0.17 to 0.15/0.15
  • Turret dispersion from 0.008 to 0.05
  • Aim time from 1.82s to 1.44s. 
  • Shell velocity from 1,478 m/s to 1,700 m/s 

 

Everything else stays the same. 

 

The alpha buff + the slight movement dispersion buffs and aim time buffs, mean the tank is at least able to trade effectively and aim a bit faster in unfavourable situations like city/corridor fights it will be forced into.

 

The other buffs just make it a lot more effective sniper, able to reliable dish out bigger hits from long range at the expense of DPM. 

 

 

 



SanDManN_ #9 Posted 14 March 2019 - 05:42 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 14 March 2019 - 10:15 AM, said:

A gun handling and DPM buff would not make it competitive IMO. It would still be worse than say the Russian meds which have DPM and gun handling, but also armour.

 

Or the M48 Patton, which has DPM, gun handling and turret armour. Or the STB-1 which is also getting a buff, which also has turret armour and very high DPM. Unless it was extreme it probably wouldn't make it better than the Cent AX either, which is an average tank but still has turret armour so is going to be more effective than a Leo and is almost as mobile, almost as accurate, has the same gun etc.

 

Plus it makes it generic and boring.

 

It needs buffing so its the ultimate mobile sniper, and make it stand out compared to the other NATO meds.

 

So IMO -

 

  • Alpha buff to like 450, you don't need to change the gun because WG pretty much makes up alpha these days and gun calibre seems to matter less.
  • DPM down from 2.8k to about 2.5k 
  • Accuracy from 0.29 to 0.24.
  • Penetration from 268mm to 285mm.
  • Movement/Tank traverse dispersions from 0.17/0.17 to 0.15/0.15
  • Turret dispersion from 0.008 to 0.05
  • Aim time from 1.82s to 1.44s. 
  • Shell velocity from 1,478 m/s to 1,700 m/s 

 

Everything else stays the same. 

 

The alpha buff + the slight movement dispersion buffs and aim time buffs, mean the tank is at least able to trade effectively and aim a bit faster in unfavourable situations like city/corridor fights it will be forced into.

 

The other buffs just make it a lot more effective sniper, able to reliable dish out bigger hits from long range at the expense of DPM. 

 

 

 

 

Great to see this much opinions so far ! This was also behind my reasoning for 440 alpha suggestion. It would make corridor fights better for leopard 1 as it could trade more efficient. At least for average player like me greater alpha would better choice than dpm. But I think skilled players can abuse better good gunhandling and greater dpm and could benefit from it greatly. And as Leopard 1's soviet counterpart K-91 is a dpm-monster, it would be fun diversity if there would be also a sniping medium which would be a hard-hitter.

 

IMO 2,5 k dpm sounds kind of very poor, so I'd keep it at 2,8 k. At the suggestion the alpha and dpm are exactly the same as 121, which has 122mm gun. With the suggested dpm it would be 3rd worst by dpm if autoreloaders and e50m are not counted (I trust e50m will get dmp buff). 6,25 rounds/min is quite in line with leo PTA which has 5,83 rounds/min (a little increase between tier IX and X). Dispersion 0,25 is the same as Strv 103b in siege mode - I'm thinking if it is too much for a turreted tank. I'm thinking of replacing the suggestion to 0,27 which is the same as Grille 15. Aim time could be 1,5 sec for the more sniper tank to counter the worse soft stats - so I did change a bit the aim time suggestion.

 

BTW shell velocities are actually real-life velocities for this real 120 mm gun so WG wouldn't need to make up those. As is also the weight for the 1A1A1 variant.


Edited by SanDManN_, 15 March 2019 - 07:36 PM.


dangertank1203 #10 Posted 15 March 2019 - 05:29 AM

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120mm gun

more dpm like amx30b

better gun handling

and 10 depression



blockypanzer #11 Posted 25 March 2019 - 10:45 AM

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The tank doesn't need a 120mm smoothbore, and I very much doubt WG will allow that gun in the game.

 

As for the Leo 1A1A1, I agree, and have said this eleswhere.

 

Here's how you ACTUALLY fix the Leopard tech tree:

 

Leopard 1 (current tier X version, which represents a 0-series Leopard 1) moved from tier X => IX. Give it the Object 430 treatment. Accepting that this tank is large and has bad camo rating, hindering it's scouting ability, but also has no armour at all, it should retain its (sub-par) tier X gun handling and only have a slight DPS nerf (reload from 7.3s with good crew to like 8.5s). Nerf HP from 1950 => 1700.

download (2).jpg

 

Leopard PTA goes entirely, or is reworked into a tier 8 premium of the Porche Leopard 1 prot, which would finance the whole tech tree rework. We know WG only reworks things if they can make money from it right?

Leopard porche.jpg

 

Then to the issue of the tier X, replace the Leopard 1 with the Leopard 1A1A1.

 

download (3).jpg

For stats, HP should remain 1950, or even 1900. However, here's the improvements the real tank had, and how I'd refelct them in the game stats of the tank:

 

New grousers for the tracks, which are also stored on the hull as applique armour. - reduce terrain resistances on soft and medium terrain, drastically, so the tank is actually as fast as the spec sheet says, not being overtaken by Object 140s whenever you turn or hit some mud. Give it the 65kph reverse speed too, it's historical.

 

Thermal sleeve for the gun, and a new gyro-stabiliser system. -Base accuracy 0.26 before crew skills, equipment and consumables. Reduce dispersion on driving and moving the hull by half. Object 140 is actually less than half the Leopard 1 for these stats, Reduce turret movement dispersion by about 30%. Buff aim time 1.9s => 1.2s. Shell velocity increase 20%, base penetration of APCR round buff 268 => 288mm. All these changes mean when you aim correctly, you will hit, and you will not troll-bounce, almost every time. Your gun will not fight you, if you can snap shots into weakspots with an object 140, you will be even better in a leopard for this. You SHOULD be even better in a Leopard for this, as you don't have the turret armour to hang around aiming. Throw in 420m view range too, in the scout role it needs every edge it can get. 

 

Armour: applique rubber/steel pannels on the turret, and rubber sideskirts. -add 15mm spaced armour around the turret front and mantlet, much like the Caern AX has. Add 5mm skirts to tracks. Add 15mm armour to area of upper glacis with the metal grousers mounted. Add appropriate extra weight to the vehicle. Reasons: doesn't change too much, almost all AP rounds will pen you every time. However, tier X mediums spamming HEAT rounds will have to know to change off them to easily pen your turret, and HE round impacts will be less destructive. The turret spaced armour wil lcause a few more misses from players who do not know the damage model. In all, it wil lslightly increase survivability of the tank while using hull down positions.

 

These should be enough quality of life changes in all areas to make the tank relevant again, in a historical manner, and also add a new premium which we know WG will love. Thoughts?



Rupert99 #12 Posted 25 March 2019 - 03:30 PM

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Just do SOMETHING, so far.... ZERO!!

DeadLecter #13 Posted 25 March 2019 - 11:13 PM

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Write your suggestions on a piece of a paper and flush it down the toilet. There is a one in a billion shot someone somewhere might find it and read it. That's more likely to happen than WG listening to any suggestion you or anyone else might have. So keep writing all the ideas no matter how great they are, WG will never ever care about it.

Edit: Forgot to say after Leo 1 gets buffed, AMX 30 B will be total garbage. Right it is 100% garbage. It will just be 1000% garbage. No armor Meh gun handling and accuracy. Horrible pen and shell velocity. It just has a stupid DPM that is useless and it's mobility so it gets killed as soon as the battle starts.


Edited by DeadLecter, 25 March 2019 - 11:45 PM.


SanDManN_ #14 Posted 11 April 2019 - 09:52 PM

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View Postblockypanzer, on 25 March 2019 - 10:45 AM, said:

The tank doesn't need a 120mm smoothbore, and I very much doubt WG will allow that gun in the game.

 

As for the Leo 1A1A1, I agree, and have said this eleswhere.

 

Here's how you ACTUALLY fix the Leopard tech tree:

 

Leopard 1 (current tier X version, which represents a 0-series Leopard 1) moved from tier X => IX. Give it the Object 430 treatment. Accepting that this tank is large and has bad camo rating, hindering it's scouting ability, but also has no armour at all, it should retain its (sub-par) tier X gun handling and only have a slight DPS nerf (reload from 7.3s with good crew to like 8.5s). Nerf HP from 1950 => 1700.

download (2).jpg

 

Leopard PTA goes entirely, or is reworked into a tier 8 premium of the Porche Leopard 1 prot, which would finance the whole tech tree rework. We know WG only reworks things if they can make money from it right?

Leopard porche.jpg

 

Then to the issue of the tier X, replace the Leopard 1 with the Leopard 1A1A1.

 

download (3).jpg

For stats, HP should remain 1950, or even 1900. However, here's the improvements the real tank had, and how I'd refelct them in the game stats of the tank:

 

New grousers for the tracks, which are also stored on the hull as applique armour. - reduce terrain resistances on soft and medium terrain, drastically, so the tank is actually as fast as the spec sheet says, not being overtaken by Object 140s whenever you turn or hit some mud. Give it the 65kph reverse speed too, it's historical.

 

Thermal sleeve for the gun, and a new gyro-stabiliser system. -Base accuracy 0.26 before crew skills, equipment and consumables. Reduce dispersion on driving and moving the hull by half. Object 140 is actually less than half the Leopard 1 for these stats, Reduce turret movement dispersion by about 30%. Buff aim time 1.9s => 1.2s. Shell velocity increase 20%, base penetration of APCR round buff 268 => 288mm. All these changes mean when you aim correctly, you will hit, and you will not troll-bounce, almost every time. Your gun will not fight you, if you can snap shots into weakspots with an object 140, you will be even better in a leopard for this. You SHOULD be even better in a Leopard for this, as you don't have the turret armour to hang around aiming. Throw in 420m view range too, in the scout role it needs every edge it can get. 

 

Armour: applique rubber/steel pannels on the turret, and rubber sideskirts. -add 15mm spaced armour around the turret front and mantlet, much like the Caern AX has. Add 5mm skirts to tracks. Add 15mm armour to area of upper glacis with the metal grousers mounted. Add appropriate extra weight to the vehicle. Reasons: doesn't change too much, almost all AP rounds will pen you every time. However, tier X mediums spamming HEAT rounds will have to know to change off them to easily pen your turret, and HE round impacts will be less destructive. The turret spaced armour wil lcause a few more misses from players who do not know the damage model. In all, it wil lslightly increase survivability of the tank while using hull down positions.

 

These should be enough quality of life changes in all areas to make the tank relevant again, in a historical manner, and also add a new premium which we know WG will love. Thoughts?

 

Great comment, very in-depth! Either the 105 mm or 120 mm gun. Though I think 120 mm would make the tank more unique but you are very right about that hardly WG will allow it to the game. I took some of your aspects of the armor changes to the poll suggestions and also made a little text in the beginning about the 1A1A1 variant which would reason the changes.

I have also noticed that when playing with the Leo 1 the things that bother most is that the aim time is not as quick as you wished, and also the gun doesn't hit the point aimed and if the aim goes wrong it hits a strong part of the enemy tank and it doesn't penetrate. 288 mm penetration would be good for sniping as APCR loses penetration over time and has worse normalization than AP shells. IMO 1,2 s aim time for a turreted tank is too good, and I also doubt that WG will not allow the tank to have both great dispersion values and accuracy. I also doubt WG will not increase the shell velocity of the 105 mm L7A3 as it's already pretty good and historically correct (120 mm smoothbore would have 1650 m/s ;) ). Also, 420 m view range would be great !

 

All in all, thanks for good commenting. I'm considering doing a new poll as at the moment majority would like to have a true sniper tank. The poll would be about would people like more about 1A1A1 with 105 mm gun or 1A1A1 prototype with 120 mm gun.



Strizi #15 Posted 11 April 2019 - 10:13 PM

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They could easily make leopard pta a t8 premium with 360 alpha because the new swedish t8 gets that alpha too (and the t10 gets stupid 440 alpha wtf).

tumppi776 #16 Posted 12 April 2019 - 03:25 PM

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one of the better tanks in the entire game. not to mention a german. no buffs needed

XxKuzkina_MatxX #17 Posted 17 April 2019 - 05:09 PM

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Notice anything strange in this photo?

 

 

Global tank rebalance after patch 1.5, July i guess.



Dr_Oolen #18 Posted 17 April 2019 - 06:08 PM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 17 April 2019 - 05:09 PM, said:

Notice anything strange in this photo?

 

 

Global tank rebalance after patch 1.5, July i guess.

 

autoreloading leopard? Kappa

XxKuzkina_MatxX #19 Posted 17 April 2019 - 06:18 PM

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View PostDr_Oolen, on 17 April 2019 - 07:08 PM, said:

autoreloading leopard? Kappa

 

I don't know if it's an auto reloader or a normal autoloader but it was brought up in the last TwitchCon. A conversation between a german streamer called 'MouzAkrobat' and Victor Kislyi.

 

This is an old image by the way, a year old to be exact but it seems like the OP and many others are interested in the upcoming changes so i posted it here with the approximate date!


Edited by XxKuzkina_MatxX, 17 April 2019 - 06:34 PM.


XxKuzkina_MatxX #20 Posted 17 April 2019 - 07:12 PM

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Seems like PIROMANRS is stalking me. :)

 

https://thearmoredpa...at-with-viktor/






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