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Map Design - new trend towards mirrowing


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Maschinenkanone #1 Posted 15 March 2019 - 10:45 AM

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I just read the following article about the new map Kharkov - and am a bit worried by just looking at the map overview.


 

https://thearmoredpatrol.com/2019/03/15/supertest-news-kharkov-map/


 

It seems to me that there is a clear trend to approach the map design by mirrowing. More and more maps are designed in a way which offers two identical halfs. While I understand that the intention is to create a "fair" scenario for both teams it undoubtedly leads to less variety and I am asking myself, why is there no try to achieve both goals. Both halfs dont need to be identical to be "fair", the advantage of one side could be balanced with a different advantage of the opposite side. Basically like this: 3+2 = 1+4 instead of 5=5


 

And a second thought while talking about "fairness". It seems to me that with all the randomness within the WoT system, be it performance differences in tanks, in crews, in mods, in pc equipement it feels rather silly to speak about slight unfairness within maps in the first place. We accept that tanks differ in performence on certain maps. We accept that crew skills vary a lot from player to player. And we know that this is actually "unfair". Why do we suddenly burst into tears if a map side (on which everybody starts with the same chance, namely 50%) offers a slight disadvantage?


My personal perspective is clear: I would prefer variety in maps. Mirrowed maps look and feel artificial, generic - and boring. A mirrowed map has no character. Its potential for variety is wasted.

What is your opinion in regards to map design? Do you applaud this trend? Or do you also prefer variety even if it could sometimes lead to one side having a slight advantage?

 


Edited by Maschinenkanone, 15 March 2019 - 10:47 AM.


wsatnutter #2 Posted 15 March 2019 - 10:48 AM

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I would say lets see how it plays I see where you are coming from hopefully it plays well. we have waited long enough for a decent map tbh.

TungstenHitman #3 Posted 15 March 2019 - 10:54 AM

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Showing my Elder Scrolls side here. When I glanced this thread I thought it said Morrowind instead of mirrowing(whatever that means??)

XxKuzkina_MatxX #4 Posted 15 March 2019 - 10:56 AM

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I think it's a beautiful map now, it was ok before but must check in more details the outer field and how it's constructed. Mirrored spawns are a very different issue from crew skills or tank aspects though. One of the most frustrating things in this game IMO is to be on the losing side of the map like Mines south or Fjords west.

Sirebellus #5 Posted 15 March 2019 - 10:57 AM

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It looks like Ruinberg with a few more bumps and dips in the field...

Heavys go city lights go field !

XxKuzkina_MatxX #6 Posted 15 March 2019 - 11:03 AM

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View PostSirebellus, on 15 March 2019 - 11:57 AM, said:

It looks like Ruinberg with a few more bumps and dips in the field...

Heavys go city lights go field !

 

Without the crooked road connecting the city and the field! :)

Sirebellus #7 Posted 15 March 2019 - 11:07 AM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 15 March 2019 - 10:56 AM, said:

I think it's a beautiful map now, it was ok before but must check in more details the outer field and how it's constructed. Mirrored spawns are a very different issue from crew skills or tank aspects though. One of the most frustrating things in this game IMO is to be on the losing side of the map like Mines south or Fjords west.

 

Is there any definitive evidence that the spawns mentioned win less often ?
I can't say that I've noticed this, but I play mainly T3-T7 tanks which perhaps aren't as restricted by the size of mines as the higher tiers are which may make a difference to the win ratio for each spawn... and for me personally Fjords was the 2nd worst map on the game (by far the worst being Paris) and now I enjoy playing it from either spawn

 

 



XxKuzkina_MatxX #8 Posted 15 March 2019 - 11:21 AM

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View PostSirebellus, on 15 March 2019 - 12:07 PM, said:

Is there any definitive evidence that the spawns mentioned win less often ?
I can't say that I've noticed this, but I play mainly T3-T7 tanks which perhaps aren't as restricted by the size of mines as the higher tiers are which may make a difference to the win ratio for each spawn... and for me personally Fjords was the 2nd worst map on the game (by far the worst being Paris) and now I enjoy playing it from either spawn

 

Your observation about lower and med tiers is correct. Spawn discrepancies start to be more visible from tier 6 upwards.

 

Last time vbaddict was working, Fjords west had a 45% win rate, Mines south a win rate of 42.2% in standard battles and 37.5% in encounter! :)


Edited by XxKuzkina_MatxX, 15 March 2019 - 11:27 AM.


duijm #9 Posted 15 March 2019 - 11:36 AM

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STOP MIRROR MAPS......who carres about a bit imbalance.  Over 1000 battles we get the maps from both sides an equal amount of times.

 

 



Balc0ra #10 Posted 15 March 2019 - 12:29 PM

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Considering the most common complaint during Q&A's and the odd mention on this forum has been equality on maps, as most are to one sided on some lanes etc. I suspect this is what you get for an easy way out. 

 

Do I hate this? Yes and no. As this can work well if done right, as in leaving the map interesting for both sides and most classes. But having to many of them or just maps like that can make it boring sure. But the odd map here and there I would honestly be fine with.



Hechaton #11 Posted 15 March 2019 - 12:37 PM

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Same here.
Mirroring is probably the most "fair" map design (besides being the easiest and less time consuming to create).
But also the most boring.
I think the main problem is the "two" game modes. They play out way to similar to justify an asymmetric map design (ref. Frontline mode). If WG would come up with a new game mode similar to Frontline in a smaller scale....?

Edited by Hechaton, 15 March 2019 - 12:42 PM.


Dorander #12 Posted 15 March 2019 - 07:39 PM

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As far as I'm concerned they could design maps the same way the inkblots for a Rorschach's test are made. It would at least ensure the maps are fair for both sides, it'd put the focus on player skill where it belongs, and the entire playerbase will still see things in it that aren't there.

Ringo_Star #13 Posted 15 March 2019 - 07:48 PM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 15 March 2019 - 09:54 AM, said:

Showing my Elder Scrolls side here. When I glanced this thread I thought it said Morrowind instead of mirrowing(whatever that means??)

I would like to see some silt striders in full hd ( maybe instead of zepellin in Redshire) though.



Bordhaw #14 Posted 15 March 2019 - 09:11 PM

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View PostSirebellus, on 15 March 2019 - 10:07 AM, said:

 

Is there any definitive evidence that the spawns mentioned win less often ?

 

Yes, that why WG have tweaked those maps in the last few patches. You can find it in their news articles from sometime last year. 

 

View PostMaschinenkanone, on 15 March 2019 - 09:45 AM, said:

 

It seems to me that there is a clear trend to approach the map design by mirrowing. More and more maps are designed in a way which offers two identical halfs. While I understand that the intention is to create a "fair" scenario for both teams it undoubtedly leads to less variety and I am asking myself, why is there no try to achieve both goals. Both halfs dont need to be identical to be "fair", the advantage of one side could be balanced with a different advantage of the opposite side. Basically like this: 3+2 = 1+4 instead of 5=5

 

 

Again WG said that they are trying out on purpose doing a mirrored map to see how it works compared to other maps with or without known bias. Look at Ghost Town for example. 



SuedKAT #15 Posted 15 March 2019 - 09:19 PM

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From the pictures it looks decent enough and I didn't spot anything that raised any red flags, so I'm looking forward to trying it out, however the comments made on that article for sure is hilarious :P

Zoltan1251 #16 Posted 16 March 2019 - 12:13 PM

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View Postduijm, on 15 March 2019 - 11:36 AM, said:

STOP MIRROR MAPS......who carres about a bit imbalance.  Over 1000 battles we get the maps from both sides an equal amount of times.

 

 

 

can you tell me one good reason why not to mirror maps?... its fair and balanced and you will have 50% chance of winning.... why is this so bad for you?... one day you whine that you want skill based MM because it would be "fair" and next day WG does something that works towards that goal and you whine also

vasilinhorulezz #17 Posted 16 March 2019 - 02:44 PM

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View PostZoltan1251, on 16 March 2019 - 12:13 PM, said:

 

can you tell me one good reason why not to mirror maps?... its fair and balanced and you will have 50% chance of winning.... why is this so bad for you?... one day you whine that you want skill based MM because it would be "fair" and next day WG does something that works towards that goal and you whine also

 

It breaks the immersion, real battlefields are not mirrored.

A wot map is not a football court, it's supposed to be a battlefield.

Although I, personally don't mind maybe a few mirror maps,

I still prefer a map that looks like an actual location.



XxKuzkina_MatxX #18 Posted 16 March 2019 - 03:03 PM

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View Postvasilinhorulezz, on 16 March 2019 - 03:44 PM, said:

It breaks the immersion, real battlefields are not mirrored.

A wot map is not a football court, it's supposed to be a battlefield.

Although I, personally don't mind maybe a few mirror maps,

I still prefer a map that looks like an actual location.

 

Would you prefer a map like this...

 

 

or this...

 



NoobySkooby #19 Posted 16 March 2019 - 03:55 PM

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If this and Stalingrad were to return my interest in the game might go up a slight notch, for all the flag WG get about maps and in some cases well deserved, could you or anyone else design them better?

 

 

Now just imagine if WG said to the community, right design a map, how would you do it and what software would you use, just out of interest.



duijm #20 Posted 17 March 2019 - 10:27 AM

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View PostZoltan1251, on 16 March 2019 - 11:13 AM, said:

 

can you tell me one good reason why not to mirror maps?... its fair and balanced and you will have 50% chance of winning.... why is this so bad for you?... one day you whine that you want skill based MM because it would be "fair" and next day WG does something that works towards that goal and you whine also

 

Well no.  We play a game were there are so many things unbalanced (premium ammo, OP tanks, tank balance etc) why should maps be perfectly balanced? WG should care more about bad average winrate on leopard and huge average winrate on object 907 than a slight 51-49% winchance rate on an inbalanced map dont you think? Over 1000 games we will get north side 500 times and south side 500 times.  So who cares a bit of inbalance.

 

 

 

 






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