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Disabling Team Damage - Yay or Nay?

team damage HP TK kill killer feature update vote

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Poll: Should Team Damage Be Disabled? (228 members have cast votes)

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Should Team Damage Be Disabled?

  1. Yes (93 votes [40.79%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 40.79%

  2. No (124 votes [54.39%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 54.39%

  3. I don't care (11 votes [4.82%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.82%

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tajj7 #121 Posted 11 April 2019 - 10:12 AM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 11 April 2019 - 08:56 AM, said:

 

So what's stopping that same a-hole simply shoving you, crashing into over and over and over, blocking you, driving behind you and shooting to get spotted so you take the enemy fire meant for him or just following and pushing you around the map for 15 minutes instead? You see it wouldn't change anything really, only now it would allow for arty to reign bombs on groups of tanks brawling in close quarters(which the mother fokkers do anyway at times) and imo it would dumb the game down.

 

Personally I like the bit of extra spice team damage gives. It makes us have to play with more thought and consideration, it stops the game from becoming completely auto-aim moronic press W key and drool. I take your point about the clueless dork that decides to take it out on you because he's getting wrecked for playing like and idiot and has decided it's your fault he's an idiot but like I said, he can still cause you problems regardless, arguably more annoying problems. I'd rather be TK'd or have him turn blue than be pushed about the battle for 15 minutes and forced to abandon the battle myself and then me get a warning even though I didn't do anything wrong. But apart from that, it's that bit of spice and forced consideration that team damage gives the game is what I like about it. Apart from arty not being able to dump bombs on packs of brawling tanks, it's 50/50 moments in which your teammate is on 1 shot and so is the enemy tank he is brawling with and you can either save him or TK him depending on how that shot goes and we have to consider do we try save him with a really risky shot, let him sort it out himself but he could die in a position we had a 50/50 chance to save him. All good. 

 

Arty hits friendlies all the time, I'd actually say that arty team damage is probably the most common team damage in the game, it happens almost every game.

 

As for the blocking etc. well team damage never stops it, no one cares, these trolls will do whatever anyway.

 

I also have experienced in over 27k battles like 1 or 2 times where someone has intentionally trolled me like that, but I get accidentally team damaged and purposely team damaged much more often than that. 


So your argument makes no sense. 

 

  • Team damage happens way more often than other forms of blocking/trolling
  • Being able to team damage does not stop those forms of blocking/trolling, if anything those people are trying to get you to shoot them to get you banned. (in fact taking away that ability might actually take away the trolls incentive for doing it) 
  • Arty hits teammates all the time anyway, so turning off team damage at least protects those people, rather than punishing them.

 

Which is basically IMO what happens now, innocent people get punished by the team damage system, the perpetrators do not most of the time.

 

In my example above, that FV4005 player did not even turn blue, the credit fine did not even cover the cost of repairs to my tank, so because that guy is a complete a-hole and oblivious to how bad he is, and because we have team damage on, my game got ruined even though I did nothing wrong. I mean the team lost badly in that game but with a full HP tank I could have at least done more damage maybe slowed down the tide, made progress to my missions, made MOE progress, earned more credits etc.  Instead I had a crappy one shot of damage game because a terrible oblivious idiot sat behind me in an FV4005, blocked me from retreating and then one shot me from full HP, all because of his stupidity and anger. 

 

He was the stupid one, he was the oblivious one, he was the angry one but I am the one that got punished, yeh seems fair and balanced that, act like a an a-hole, block your team mate, ruin their game and get away with it. 

 

How is that a fair and balanced system? It isn't, if you are in favour of team damage in means you are more often that not in favour of the people that do it, rather than the innocent victims of it, because they are the ones that win in the current system.

 

As for the 'skill' argument, its weak, people are careless and auto-aim anyway, arty hit team mates anyway, at the end of the day most players want to do damage to enemy tanks and won't waste shots unnecessarily, why with like a 16s reload on a 60TP would I take some risky half aimed shot that might hit a team mates and do nothing? I want that 750 damage for the XP, credits, to help winning the game, missions, MOE etc. 

 

Careless people are careless anyway. 

Careless/don't care arty players hit teammates anyway.

 Ignorant blockers/troll players will do that anyway.

 

Why not at least in most cases stop the innocent party to someone else's carelessness, anger or ignorance suffering? 

 

Seems a no brainer to me. 


Edited by tajj7, 11 April 2019 - 10:15 AM.


Dorander #122 Posted 11 April 2019 - 11:29 AM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 11 April 2019 - 08:56 AM, said:

 

So what's stopping that same a-hole simply shoving you, crashing into over and over and over, blocking you, driving behind you and shooting to get spotted so you take the enemy fire meant for him or just following and pushing you around the map for 15 minutes instead? You see it wouldn't change anything really, only now it would allow for arty to reign bombs on groups of tanks brawling in close quarters(which the mother fokkers do anyway at times) and imo it would dumb the game down.

 

 

That is completely irrelevant, that entire argument is "We shouldn't improve on this problem, because of that other problem that exists over there" and relies on the pretense that a changed situation can't possibly be an improvement because it didn't solve everything.

 

Even if it were relevant it'd be flat out wrong. The time and effort investment of following a person around the map for 15 minutes is far greater than firing a single shell into an opponent because you're irritated and I have NEVER seen anyone go to such lengths. It might happen but it's exceedingly rare. Driving behind someone and getting spotted so you take the fire happens and yeah it's a twit move but it's not team damage and there's no reason why you can't be behind someone if you are not damaging or blocking them, the guy in front doesn't own that spot and he's free to move. Or ask the other guy to please move, as I did to a heavy on Prok last night that kept getting spotted causing artyshells to rain on my T55A, and the guy went elsewhere, because not everyone does those things intentionally.

 

The physics abuse is a problem that ALSO needs solving, but it's not the same as firing at another player, in terms of actions it's not even equal. You can't always push someone. If a guy around you starts pushing into you over and over again to throw off your aim you have the option of relocating with your hitpoints intact, there are other valid tactical spots on a map than that one you happened to get that time. It takes no effort to shoot someone and a lot to abuse physics for an entire game which is the difference between just ruining someone else's game and ruining both your games. They're simply not comparable.



mpf1959 #123 Posted 11 April 2019 - 12:25 PM

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Team damage brings no positive thing to the game, I vote disable it. Failing that, adopt a system where the dealer of such damage loses the hit-points themselves, and not the victim.

 

Saying it needs to be kept because they will just do other things is ludicrous reasoning, it is akin to saying having two wrongs they can do is better then one, cant see the wood for trees. ;)



TungstenHitman #124 Posted 11 April 2019 - 03:02 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 11 April 2019 - 09:12 AM, said:

 

Arty hits friendlies all the time, I'd actually say that arty team damage is probably the most common team damage in the game, it happens almost every game.

 

Yes I highlighted that point. This is more a case of perhaps adjusting the team damage tolerance levels on arty to match more closely to regular tanks since they are not very accurate compared to how they used to be, they're splash radius is getting nerfed and so they really don't have much excuse for repeatedly knocking the stuffing out of their teammates. I'm seeing it from the other perspective too though, not just MY team but problems arty is causing their own team. Think of it like this, how many times has damage and stun caused to an enemy tank by its own arty actually been the difference in turning what would have been a loss into what turns out to be difference in become a great win? It's hard to know but the only reason I am in favor of team damage, forget any other reason, is, like I said, that little bit of spice it gives to battles on both teams and how it adds an uncertain outcome to how a battle will finish.

 

The other day I was up under a ridge proxy spotting targets and a B-C came charging to take me out only he walked onto a shot from his teammate which reduced his hp enough that I could 1 shot him, went on to bag an Ace, maybe I would have gone no further in that battle otherwise, it just adds an extra element of uncertainty with results and for me that's interesting, along with having to make some 50/50 choices in which the outcome could again, heavily dictate the outcome of the result at a moment in a battle when doing the right thing, making the correct decision and maybe risking it or not risking it, swings a battles outcome. Maybe that's not for everyone, fine, that's a personal choice and preference I guess and I'm not saying purpose damage is ok or trolling is ok, that's nothing to do with why I don't mind team damage being included. The system is flawed obviously, least of all when it comes to alpha of some guns, tiering hp difference etc etc and that's something that can never be fully rectified in a fair way, certainly improved on but never fully perfected any more than trolling by blocking and pushing etc. 

 

As for the blocking etc. well team damage never stops it, no one cares, these trolls will do whatever anyway.

 

I also have experienced in over 27k battles like 1 or 2 times where someone has intentionally trolled me like that, but I get accidentally team damaged and purposely team damaged much more often than that. 

 

So your argument makes no sense. 

 

  • Team damage happens way more often than other forms of blocking/trolling
  •  
  • Purposefully ​trolling, ya definitely not as much but clueless or selfish blocking or shoving is pretty much on parity I would say. I see plenty of battles in which some clueless Bob, probably with XVM, follows the more experienced player to the same concealed location and just starts shooting away from behind him not double bushing and obviously draws lots of shots onto that teammate then retreats away leaving his teammate in bits, pretty common actually and you can see that on open maps a lot where a heavy or med comes up behind a concealed tank, everyone shoots at this tank and suddenly there's a dead tank in front of him lol. The other is where you have a city map or some hard cover corner and a player using a tank like a Type5 pushes a teammate or teammates out in front of enemy guns so he can take his shot instead of just going alongside his teammates, because he doesn't give a flying fork, his game, his way. Blocking retreating teammates is pretty common... for me all the non-team damage ways are just as common. 

 

  • Being able to team damage does not stop those forms of blocking/trolling, if anything those people are trying to get you to shoot them to get you banned. (in fact taking away that ability might actually take away the trolls incentive for doing it) 
  •  
  • No it does not stop them blocking or trolling etc and they can and will still do it. The later comment about getting you to shoot them to get banned is matter of your own self restraint and temper, remember, that would be you doing the team damage, not them, you are still responsible for pulling that trigger, not them. They caused you to do it, but you did it, you didn't have to. On the flip side of that though not any case or reason for keeping team damage but without it, I'd imagine that pushing and shoving and blocking and shooting behind you would actually increase since they now have to find some other way to vent on you only the non-team damage way doesn't trigger any sanctions of bans. Has to go to support and I doubt many would be bothered nor would WG staff welcome a dramatic influx in complaints with attached battle replays.
  •  
  • Arty hits teammates all the time anyway, so turning off team damage at least protects those people, rather than punishing them.
  •  
  • Yes, but I'd much rather see arty players punished with a tougher team damage system which probably hasn't been changed since the good ol days. Like I said, now they are more accurate, they are having their splash radius nerfed so there's really no excuse for consistently hitting your teammates and like I said, add self harm and suicide to the same policing as regular tank team damage. That would allow for mistakes, the odd temper moment of madness but like most things in this game and life itself, if it becomes regular the whole notion of accidental and someone else being wrong all the time starts to go out the window. 

 

 

Which is basically IMO what happens now, innocent people get punished by the team damage system, the perpetrators do not most of the time.

 

If you're shooting your teammates, even a pro-troll, you are not innocent. You were the victim of trolling yes, but you are NOT innocent, you actively made the decision to shoot and kill your teammate, even if he deserved it, you did it, nobody else pulled that trigger. You can leave the battle and tell me what would you do in the same situation without team damage? Again, this is NOT my argument for keeping damage it's just exploring how this would solve anything like that, because it wouldn't. These offences are non team damage offences. They're either rare pro-trolling, a player venting that doesn't want to shoot same as would be the case with no team damage or the more common instance of either a clueless or selfish player pushing out of cover so they can take a shot or whatever. If they WERE pushing and shoving you on purpose what would you do? Like I said, not my argument to keep team damage since some people seem to think I'm endorsing team damage as an acceptable act which I'm not nor an antidote to trolling, I just want to know what would you do differently in those same situations? You can't get banned because you lost your temper, ok, maybe you have a short temper. The option to abandon battle is there, always has been, it's what I do when I can. Is that ok? No it's not but if I get some drunk idiot on a weekend that crashes into me on his way somewhere and didnt see me but decided "heyyyyyyyyyy what's your problem!" and starts driving out of cover and just will NOT let up on me for the entire battle, what would change there? What would change when the Type5 player decides to drive you out of cover in to 3-5 enemy tanks so he can take his shot instead of going along side you because he doesn't give a damn about you? Nothing changes, only arguably gets worse because the jerk that would have shot you and get banned or fined etc will now just follow you around like some insane freak for the remainder of the battle. Not my reason for keeping team damage, I can't stress that enough, exploring what would change in these common and uncommon situations. 

 

 

In my example above, that FV4005 player did not even turn blue, the credit fine did not even cover the cost of repairs to my tank.

 

Agree, financial sanctions should be heavy. It should cover the damage X2, it should cover any consumables you were also using like food and directives. It should cover any consumables you had to use like repair kits, med kits etc and those should be understood as team damage and so available for use again immediately, not have to wait 60 seconds or whatever since it was not caused by an enemy gun.

 

so because that guy is a complete a-hole and oblivious to how bad he is, and because we have team damage on, my game got ruined even though I did nothing wrong. I mean the team lost badly in that game but with a full HP tank I could have at least done more damage maybe slowed down the tide, made progress to my missions, made MOE progress, earned more credits etc.  Instead I had a crappy one shot of damage game because a terrible oblivious idiot sat behind me in an FV4005, blocked me from retreating and then one shot me from full HP, all because of his stupidity and anger. 

 

So it was actually blocking you from retreating that was the problem. As to why he then shot you is anyones guess. Probably because he blocked you, you vented on him with a hail of insults and toxicity, so he then smoked your backside right? Well, he was wrong twice and you were also wrong for venting on him. Without team damage he would not have killed you but it would not have changed him blocking you and causing you problems. Without team damage would you have lived much longer, would you have continued to be toxic towards him, would he have got just as offended and looked to cause you more grief? Probably, we won't know.

 

He was the stupid one, he was the oblivious one, he was the angry one but I am the one that got punished, yeh seems fair and balanced that, act like a an a-hole, block your team mate, ruin their game and get away with it. 

 

Who got angrier is disputable, like I said, I get the feeling you went to town on him with toxicity. Again, you make reference to him blocking you as the catalyst and major ingredient in what was causing you problems. Getting shot was a bi-product of blocking, short tempers and toxicity. There was a whole lot of wrongs going on there. Again, not endorsing team damage for that reason but I'd like to know how that would have played out differently without team damage.

 

How is that a fair and balanced system?

 

It's not fair but I'm asking how can that ever be fairly implemented. Remove team damage? Maybe, I'm not strongly opposed to it, it's definitely worth exploring on test servers and I certainly HATE team damage cause from crashing, with a passion that annoys me. HP is a precious commodity and clonking into another tank losing little bits of hp(or lots of hp when you clonk a fat super heavy with a light or paper TD) is really very annoying for me so I'd certainly love to see that go. 

 

 if you are in favour of team damage in means you are more often that not in favour of the people that do it, rather than the innocent victims of it, because they are the ones that win in the current system.

 

Not at all. Like I said(some 20 times now?) my only interest in team damage is that it adds an element of consideration(which admittedly plenty of players don't care about and will just shoot anyway) and adds a level of uncertainty to the outcome of some close fought battles in which either a teammate or enemy player accidentally takes a teammate out trying to shoot an enemy tank. Maybe that doesn't outweigh the negatives of team damage, like I said I'm not really passionate about keeping team damage just wonder how removing it may negatively effect gameplay and perhaps make the game a bit more dopey proof. Would you walk across a shooting gallery or across the front of an actively firing gun in real life? No because it's pretty dumb and chances of getting shot are high right? Why should the game be any different.  

 

As for the 'skill' argument, its weak, people are careless and auto-aim anyway, arty hit team mates anyway, at the end of the day most players want to do damage to enemy tanks and won't waste shots unnecessarily, why with like a 16s reload on a 60TP would I take some risky half aimed shot that might hit a team mates and do nothing? I want that 750 damage for the XP, credits, to help winning the game, missions, MOE etc. 

 

Well, the FV with a much greater reload didn't seem to think so. In any case that argument is weaker. Team damage or no team damage if you hit the enemy tank you're aiming at then you get the damage, if you don't you don't. Having no team damage will not make your shot miss your teammate and hit the enemy tank instead, you just won't do any team damage. Unless you think the shell should go through your teammate like a ghost tank and hit the enemy tank behind him which is just ridiculous beyond belief. 

 

Careless people are careless anyway. 

Careless/don't care arty players hit teammates anyway.

 Ignorant blockers/troll players will do that anyway.

 

Why not at least in most cases stop the innocent party to someone else's carelessness, anger or ignorance suffering? 

 

Seems a no brainer to me. 

 

It's worth exploring for sure. Could be better or worse, we won't know really till we try. It's WG's call in any case so all this matters little. 

 



TungstenHitman #125 Posted 11 April 2019 - 03:27 PM

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View PostDorander, on 11 April 2019 - 10:29 AM, said:

 

That is completely irrelevant, that entire argument is "We shouldn't improve on this problem, because of that other problem that exists over there" and relies on the pretense that a changed situation can't possibly be an improvement because it didn't solve everything.

 

Not irrelevant, just other perspectives worth exploring. You think it's buttoned down certain how no team damage will radically improve the game? You don't know that, I don't know it won't, but for me to suggest it perhaps may dumb the game down due to inconsequential shooting is not irrelevant, it's a possibility, just like the game being better or worse for no team damage are possibilities. You don't agree that's different, that's an opinion it doesn't make mine irrelevant any more than yours.

 

Even if it were relevant it'd be flat out wrong. The time and effort investment of following a person around the map for 15 minutes is far greater than firing a single shell into an opponent because you're irritated and I have NEVER seen anyone go to such lengths. It might happen but it's exceedingly rare.

 

The dedicated griefer who follows you around the map for entire battle is pretty rare enough yes.

 

 but it's not team damage and there's no reason why you can't be behind someone if you are not damaging or blocking them, the guy in front doesn't own that spot and he's free to move.

 

Seriously? So you think it's perfectly acceptable to go behind a concealed teammate and to knowingly start shooting, getting spotted and getting your teammate killed? Because that's what we're talking about here. It's probably the most disgusting move in the game and a weeks ban would be too kind. That's not even to say a player did that to troll, but they did that with the "I don't care I do what I want, it's my game and I don't care about you or if you get killed because I'm a selfish ignorant(insert choice word)" it's just one of the worst attitudes and moves in the game.

 

Or ask the other guy to please move, as I did to a heavy on Prok last night that kept getting spotted causing artyshells to rain on my T55A, and the guy went elsewhere, because not everyone does those things intentionally.

 

Lol pull the other one. Nobody cares to move in this game because you ask them, no, maybe 1%, should they even read your language, have chat turned on, read chat at all and could have a damn about you and your problems with them being behind you. Like you said, it's not YOUR bush right? so you can go and move if you don't like it would be the general attitude and it's your attitude too clearly so don't be a hypocrite on the back of just saying "there's no reason why you can't be behind someone if you are not damaging or blocking them, the guy in front doesn't own that spot and he's free to move"

 

The physics abuse is a problem that ALSO needs solving, but it's not the same as firing at another player, in terms of actions it's not even equal.

 

Depends on the outcome doesn't it. If your non team damage actions like pushing someone out of cover, blocking their escape or parking behind someone results in your teammate being damage even more or killed then it was very much worse than if you had shot them for 10% of their hp. Both actions are wrong, I'm no supported of either. Like I said above, I'm more interested in exploring the potential negative consequences of removing team damage since some seem certain it's going to improve things.

 

You can't always push someone. If a guy around you starts pushing into you over and over again to throw off your aim you have the option of relocating with your hitpoints intact, there are other valid tactical spots on a map than that one you happened to get that time.

 

Sometimes yes sometimes no, depends on the tank and map. Also, such clarity becomes tilted when you are wronged and feeling a bit annoyed.

 

It takes no effort to shoot someone and a lot to abuse physics for an entire game which is the difference between just ruining someone else's game and ruining both your games. They're simply not comparable.

 

Well yes they are, if the result is a negative gaming experience for that battle. It's easier to shoot someone yes but it certainly doesn't take a lot to abuse the physics. For the entire game ya probably but in most cases the teammate problems arise by players in close proximity to each other so it really doesn't take having to drive across the other side of the map to start griefing with physics abuse on your teammate, they're typically right there next to you, which is how the tiff most likely came about in the first place.

 



Dorander #126 Posted 11 April 2019 - 04:07 PM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 11 April 2019 - 02:27 PM, said:

 

 

In order:

 

1: Yes, it's irrelevant, because physics abuse governs a different violation and is thus a different perspective on something else, not on the same thing. There is also no "dumbing down" because nothing is made any easier.

 

2: Agreement so nothing else.

 

3: No, I do not think that, as I stated the opposite. I said it's not team damage, it's not against the rules, and thus it's not within the scope of a discussion about team damage.

 

4: So it it nobody or is it 1%? How often do you actually ask? Please share the measured data of your attempts. I mention one example that actually happened which doesn't hurt you to try, rather than immediately assign blame, but you'd rather assign blame apparently because you need that blame for an irrelevant argument to the TK system.

 

5: Taking things out of context is always a bad idea, because you are trying to refute partial arguments on general principles rather than how they are meant. The outcomes were described in the following sentences.

 

6: While I fully understand the frustration, lack of self-control is not a good argument for keeping systems that rely on self-control to work well. It is however indeed the case that this is completely situational, which was the point: physics abuse requires situation that allows the abuse, while everyone can fire their gun.

 

7: No, they are not, because not all negative outcomes are equally bad merely for being negative. You don't equate a cut on your arm and getting hospitalized either, even though they have certain traits in common like being an injury and requiring care. It is correct that the tiff starts with people right next to you but for physics abuse, you have the option of putting distance between you which ends the physics abuse unless that person actively follows you, and we agreed that's very rare.



AlphaCalak #127 Posted 11 April 2019 - 07:39 PM

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i'm just gonna leave this here 

 

http://wotreplays.eu...v4201_chieftain



Bad_Mojo_incoming #128 Posted 12 April 2019 - 08:53 AM

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No, team damage should remain, as IRL if a tank misses the target and hits a friendly unit, that just as bad as if they were hit by the enemy, so no, team damage should definitely remain.

 

However, there should be a more severe penalty system for dickweeds who do TD just for fun or cz they are douches.

More severe then the useless 1 hour ban.

Deliberate TD should/could be punished buy the following:

-Blocking the tank and crew you did the TD in for sometime (which could get longer like the chatban when repeatedly applied)

-reduction of the players premium time, or if he/she has no premium account then severe credit penalties and not the ridiculous few thousand credits, no, make them pay a hundred thousand or hundreds of thousands of credits if they keep repeating.

 

Or in really severe cases WG could actually confiscate high tier tanks (premiums included) from team damaging players which they would have to BUY back for their original cost. F.e. someone keeps being a d*ck for too long, than take away one of his tier 10 tanks. If he wants it back, then he has to fork out 6,1M credits...I bet not a lot of a**holes would find that amusing.

 

Or put penalties on the crew, take away 1 skill or more. Confiscate consumables, equipment, modules, there are plenty of possibilities to penalize those who are generally a**holes.


Edited by Bad_Mojo_incoming, 12 April 2019 - 08:54 AM.


jabster #129 Posted 12 April 2019 - 09:04 AM

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View PostDorander, on 11 April 2019 - 03:07 PM, said:

 

7: No, they are not, because not all negative outcomes are equally bad merely for being negative. You don't equate a cut on your arm and getting hospitalized either, even though they have certain traits in common like being an injury and requiring care. It is correct that the tiff starts with people right next to you but for physics abuse, you have the option of putting distance between you which ends the physics abuse unless that person actively follows you, and we agreed that's very rare.

 

I think you have to be a bit careful there as currently the easiest way to grief someone is just to shot them. So the question really isn't how many players do it now but instead how many players will start doing it. Personally I really haven't seen that many out-and-out griefers and most team damage just comes from a couple of players having a tiff. I don't see many of the latter resorting to blocking etc. to make their point.

TungstenHitman #130 Posted 12 April 2019 - 09:57 AM

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View PostDorander, on 11 April 2019 - 03:07 PM, said:

 

In order:

 

1: Yes, it's irrelevant, because physics abuse governs a different violation and is thus a different perspective on something else, not on the same thing. There is also no "dumbing down" because nothing is made any easier.

 

Being able to fire into a pack of brawling allies and enemy tanks without any though given to hitting your team mate or negative consequences on your team is dumb mode, it's 100% easier to just shoot into a pack of tanks when there is 0% chance of injuring or killing a friendly. And no physics abuse is not irrelevant to the topic of team damage and is worth exploring since if these same hotheads that shoot teammates on purpose to vent no longer have that option then chances are strong imo that instead many will still carry that "I'll show him!" attitude for the rest of that battle of at least for several minutes and start abusing physics as an alternative way to grief teammates, particularly those in close proximity which is usually where most these tiffs kick off. Am I saying team damage needs to stay for that reason? No not at all I'd disapprove of both wrong doings but it's certainly worth exploring as a potential negative blow back to removing team damage, and unlike team damage which is recorded and certainly needs improving on in terms of fines, with game physics abuse there is rarely any automated wrong doing unless you tip some guy into the drink or off a cliff. 

 

2: Agreement so nothing else.

 

3: No, I do not think that, as I stated the opposite. I said it's not team damage, it's not against the rules, and thus it's not within the scope of a discussion about team damage.

 

You did though and I quote  "there's no reason why you can't be behind someone if you are not damaging or blocking them, the guy in front doesn't own that spot and he's free to move" and it is within the scope of team damage since as mentioned, without team damage as an option this alternative way of griefing and having your teammate shot and killed would most likely become more prevalent as a malicious way of settling a tiff with a teammate in the immediate area albeit more situation than simply shooting a teammate. 

 

4: So it it nobody or is it 1%? How often do you actually ask? Please share the measured data of your attempts. I mention one example that actually happened which doesn't hurt you to try, rather than immediately assign blame, but you'd rather assign blame apparently because you need that blame for an irrelevant argument to the TK system.

 

What's my measured data for coming up with the statement that asking a teammate to move or leave rarely, almost never results in them moving? Over 26k battles of experience, in which I never to the best of my recollection, remember a teammate obliging another teammate when I witnessed them asking to move or asked myself. The 1% margin is for the odd time that perhaps I missed the moment whenever someone actually did move when asked, it's trivial. Bottom line is players don't move and do what they want to do, you know it too so I have no idea why you're fabricating nonsense other than trying to gloss over some untrue point you're trying to make. 

 

5: Taking things out of context is always a bad idea, because you are trying to refute partial arguments on general principles rather than how they are meant. The outcomes were described in the following sentences.

 

In what way?  You're suggesting that a player shooting a teammate is worse than physics abuse and I am saying that depends on the outcome to the "victim". It's a simple point and not bringing rights and wrongs into the equation. If a teammate shoots you for 10% hp it's not as bad as being pushed into enemy guns and being killed or suffering higher damage than that 10%. Alternatively if a big alpha tank 1 shot kills you that's worse than being pushed into enemy guns and sustaining damage that did not kill you. So it's purely circumstantial as to which is the lessor of two evils and not a case of team damage being worse than game physics abuse. Sometimes it is, sometimes it's not.

 

6: While I fully understand the frustration, lack of self-control is not a good argument for keeping systems that rely on self-control to work well. It is however indeed the case that this is completely situational, which was the point: physics abuse requires situation that allows the abuse, while everyone can fire their gun.

 

Yes it's much easier to shoot a teammate than to construct a non team damage way to achieve the same nasty results. I'm just repeating myself here though when I say that we need to explore the non team damage way of griefing a teammate since clearly this will now be the only option available and clearly there would be a significant increase in this alternative way since it would then be the only way. Again, I'm not dealing with rights and wrongs or using this as an angle to keep damage, I already gave my reasons why I like team damage, this is just exploring the inevitable blow back which will happen too as a consequence of removing team damage. 

 

7: No, they are not, because not all negative outcomes are equally bad merely for being negative. You don't equate a cut on your arm and getting hospitalized either, even though they have certain traits in common like being an injury and requiring care. It is correct that the tiff starts with people right next to you but for physics abuse, you have the option of putting distance between you which ends the physics abuse unless that person actively follows you, and we agreed that's very rare.

 

Not really. Sure, I would think the likelihood of players griefing each by pushing and trolling and abusing game physics will be rarer than players purposefully shooting each other, it has to be, it's simply easier and more knee-jerk to shoot someone but that said, there would have to be a large increase in witnessing idiotic jostling and hair pulling during battles along with having some strong engine tank push the weaker tank into harms way or out of cover or whatever the case maybe be along with parking behind someone to get spotted and draw shots on the teammate in front of you. The option to relocate or put distance between you and the griefer is again, purely circumstantial. If it's not jostling with a TD for "That bush" then a lot of this seems to kick off during engagements with enemy tanks at locations of cover so the option to relocate just simply isn't there since you'll killed by the enemy tanks. It's not always an option. 

 







Also tagged with team, damage, HP, TK, kill, killer, feature, update, vote

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