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Spall Liner is the answer!

Arta Spall Liner Equipment HE Effective Armour Game Balance Solution

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Poll: Spall Liner poll (39 members have cast votes)

You have to complete 250 battles in order to participate this poll.

How much should Spall Liner be buffed?

  1. By a lot (16 votes [41.03%])

    Percentage of vote: 41.03%

  2. Only enough to make it relevant again (15 votes [38.46%])

    Percentage of vote: 38.46%

  3. It should not be changed (6 votes [15.38%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.38%

  4. I have never used the equipment before so cannot say (2 votes [5.13%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.13%

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Freetoplay_KV2 #1 Posted 04 April 2019 - 12:30 AM

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Spall Liner, one of the most obsolete types of equipment for all but a select few tanks that use the Superheavy Spall Liner.

 

Buffing Spall Liner would make it a relevant choice of equipment but it might also solve a FAR bigger problem.

 

A lot of people dislike Artillery, a lot of people dislike Type 5 Heavy shooting HE, a lot of players dislike HE altogether.

 

Currently the only way to set up your tank to be less vulnerable to HE is by equipping the Spall Liner, but currently its values are far too low to give any relevant bonus to make it worth giving up Improved Ventilation for example.

 

Only Type 5 Heavy, Maus and T95 can significantly benefit from the largest Spall Liner.

 

To understand Spall Liner:

 

If a 1400 damage HE shell hits the front of a 300mm armour with no angle giving it its effective armour rating 300, an average roll would do 700 minus effective armour, which means the HE shell does 400 damage.

With Superheavy Spall Liner the armour is currently increased by 50% giving flat armour of 450 , now the HE shell only does 250 damage.

 

Many tanks have weak underbellys to splash by shooting the floor or weak top armour for artillery to abuse.

Currently Spall Liner does very little to help low armoured tanks, and this is concerning shots that deliberately miss in order to splash weak areas.

 

Lets entertain the idea that the spall liner was buffed to 100 percent extra. Now the no aim straight to the face shot of HE on 300mm of armour will do only 100 damage.

 

If you cannot enjoy gameplay with Artillery you should be able to give up an equipment slot in order to enable HE protection.

 

Of course in the example with 100 percent the HE shell will usually bounce because the frontal armour of a tank is usually not flat but if you are shooting the face of 300mm armour HE should do nothing so this is fair.

 

For a more relevant example, the Tiger 1 in many places this tank has 100mm of armour. It can equip Heavy Spall Liner giving 30% protection against non pen HE.

It is making the armour only slightly better, a 1000 dmg shot from a tier 7 Artillery (If it doesnt pen..) would do on average 400 damage to the Tiger 1. With 30% Spall Liner it would do 370. Not a big difference. If Heavy Spall Liner was 100% instead the Tiger would take 300, 25% less damage.

If the Tiger is angled well and has 200 effective armour, with current spall liner it would have 260 effective, taking 240 damage from the 1000 damage artillery.

If the Tiger was angled and had 100% from the Spall Liner it would have 400 effective armour and the artillery would only do 100 damage in splash.

 

Even by raising the effectiveness of the Heavy Spall Liner by 70 percent up to 100 percent bonus the same tier Artillery can still reliably damage (and that means dead crew,modules etc) a well angled heavy tank of the same tier at mid tiers.

 

What about lower tier.

 

KV1 tier 5, 75 armour hull. Lef tier 5 410 damage per shot lets just pretend it doesnt pen......

 

Current spall liner: 97 flat, angled at 150 effective: 194

100% spall liner: 150 flat, angled at 150 effective: 300

 

Even angled to double armour effectiveness the Lef is still doing damage every 7 seconds to the KV1 which is a very well armoured tier 5 tank.

 

With 100 percent Spall Liner the Lef spam could still do 50-60 damage on flat parts (IF it doesnt pen...) but when the KV1 will angle it could now bounce the shots.

 

I think a serious buff to this equipment would give all players an option to take instead of complain about how the game is not balanced.

 

I think that by buffing Light Spall Liner to 50% , Medium Spall Liner to 75%, Heavy Spall Liner to 100% there would be absolutely no problems with the game balance, artillery might even have to aim again.

I think Superheavy would be fine at up to 150%

 

It would also introduce the possibility of introducing a lot more tanks to the game with large caliber guns. SturmTiger , SU203 and many others (NOT as artillery but Tank destroyers)

 

When facing any tank that does not shoot HE or HESH the spall liner is completely useless. It will not spoil the game by increasing its effectiveness dramatically.

There could be additional penalty of using Spall Liner by being incompatible with Vents for example (makes sense?)

 

Or maybe introduce bonds version of Spall Liner which have 100% bonus, this could also work.

 



Dorander #2 Posted 04 April 2019 - 12:41 AM

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A few small corrections:

 

Non-penetrating HE hits take nominal armour into account, not effective armour, thus on a failed penetration, impact angle no longer matters.

 

Besides the spall liner coefficient, nominal armour is factored by 1.1, so 300mm nominal armour (gief plox) would end up reducing damage by 330 without a spall liner.

 

 

As for the idea itself, I'm in favour for Spall Liners to actually do something except be a niche slot for some superheavies. If they actually reduced HE damage by a flat percentage rather than a modifier to armour on a non-penetrating hit, even if this flat reduction only applied to non-penetrating hits, this would make Spall Liners are viable equipment choice, forcing people to actually choose between an offensive buff or a defensive buff from equipment. Given that they come with a drawback of increased weight, they ought to at least be effective. No other equipment comes with this noticable a drawback, making the choice to not slot a Spall Liner a no-brainer in nearly every scenario.



Infryndiira #3 Posted 04 April 2019 - 04:07 AM

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The Spall Liner is getting buffed, to also decrease stun duration from additional stuns, as the mechanic is being reworked for artillery.

 

That being said, the Spall Liner already offers excellent crew protection from injuries, and a decent decrease of stun duration. Admittedly, the damage it absorbs can be negligible at times, but even that tends to gather up as you get focused on. The main value, in my eyes, is the protection from injuries, which can span from 30% to 50% depending on the variant, and stacks with the 10% from large medikits.

 

That being said, the proposed buffs might be problematic. Imagine the Maus receiving 500mm effective armour against HE? That would basically render it completely immune to most artillery fire in the game, barring direct hits from tier 10 artillery, and even then, the numbers would often drop to double digits.



Geno1isme #4 Posted 04 April 2019 - 08:51 AM

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As stated above, your math is somewhat wrong.

The bigger problem though is that splash damage isn't necessarily calculated with the armor at the point of impact, but where it actually does the most damage. Like hitting the (lower) front of a Maus turret with a large-caliber HE round, the splash will likely be calculated for the 50mm of engine deck armor rather than the 260mm of frontal turret armor. So even with +100% bonus the actual effect of the spall liner is rather insignificant in those cases (plus it still only benefits a few vehicles with thick nominal armor all-around).



4nt #5 Posted 04 April 2019 - 10:21 AM

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What would be the effect if spalls would reduce the end damage by current percentage?

Objec7 #6 Posted 04 April 2019 - 10:41 AM

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View PostFreetoplay_KV2, on 04 April 2019 - 12:30 AM, said:

Spall Liner, one of the most obsolete types of equipment for all but a select few tanks that use the Superheavy Spall Liner.

 

Buffing Spall Liner would make it a relevant choice of equipment but it might also solve a FAR bigger problem.

 

A lot of people dislike Artillery, a lot of people dislike Type 5 Heavy shooting HE, a lot of players dislike HE altogether.

 

Currently the only way to set up your tank to be less vulnerable to HE is by equipping the Spall Liner, but currently its values are far too low to give any relevant bonus to make it worth giving up Improved Ventilation for example.

 

Only Type 5 Heavy, Maus and T95 can significantly benefit from the largest Spall Liner.

 

To understand Spall Liner:

 

If a 1400 damage HE shell hits the front of a 300mm armour with no angle giving it its effective armour rating 300, an average roll would do 700 minus effective armour, which means the HE shell does 400 damage.

With Superheavy Spall Liner the armour is currently increased by 50% giving flat armour of 450 , now the HE shell only does 250 damage.

 

Many tanks have weak underbellys to splash by shooting the floor or weak top armour for artillery to abuse.

Currently Spall Liner does very little to help low armoured tanks, and this is concerning shots that deliberately miss in order to splash weak areas.

 

Lets entertain the idea that the spall liner was buffed to 100 percent extra. Now the no aim straight to the face shot of HE on 300mm of armour will do only 100 damage.

 

If you cannot enjoy gameplay with Artillery you should be able to give up an equipment slot in order to enable HE protection.

 

Of course in the example with 100 percent the HE shell will usually bounce because the frontal armour of a tank is usually not flat but if you are shooting the face of 300mm armour HE should do nothing so this is fair.

 

For a more relevant example, the Tiger 1 in many places this tank has 100mm of armour. It can equip Heavy Spall Liner giving 30% protection against non pen HE.

It is making the armour only slightly better, a 1000 dmg shot from a tier 7 Artillery (If it doesnt pen..) would do on average 400 damage to the Tiger 1. With 30% Spall Liner it would do 370. Not a big difference. If Heavy Spall Liner was 100% instead the Tiger would take 300, 25% less damage.

If the Tiger is angled well and has 200 effective armour, with current spall liner it would have 260 effective, taking 240 damage from the 1000 damage artillery.

If the Tiger was angled and had 100% from the Spall Liner it would have 400 effective armour and the artillery would only do 100 damage in splash.

 

Even by raising the effectiveness of the Heavy Spall Liner by 70 percent up to 100 percent bonus the same tier Artillery can still reliably damage (and that means dead crew,modules etc) a well angled heavy tank of the same tier at mid tiers.

 

What about lower tier.

 

KV1 tier 5, 75 armour hull. Lef tier 5 410 damage per shot lets just pretend it doesnt pen......

 

Current spall liner: 97 flat, angled at 150 effective: 194

100% spall liner: 150 flat, angled at 150 effective: 300

 

Even angled to double armour effectiveness the Lef is still doing damage every 7 seconds to the KV1 which is a very well armoured tier 5 tank.

 

With 100 percent Spall Liner the Lef spam could still do 50-60 damage on flat parts (IF it doesnt pen...) but when the KV1 will angle it could now bounce the shots.

 

I think a serious buff to this equipment would give all players an option to take instead of complain about how the game is not balanced.

 

I think that by buffing Light Spall Liner to 50% , Medium Spall Liner to 75%, Heavy Spall Liner to 100% there would be absolutely no problems with the game balance, artillery might even have to aim again.

I think Superheavy would be fine at up to 150%

 

It would also introduce the possibility of introducing a lot more tanks to the game with large caliber guns. SturmTiger , SU203 and many others (NOT as artillery but Tank destroyers)

 

When facing any tank that does not shoot HE or HESH the spall liner is completely useless. It will not spoil the game by increasing its effectiveness dramatically.

There could be additional penalty of using Spall Liner by being incompatible with Vents for example (makes sense?)

 

Or maybe introduce bonds version of Spall Liner which have 100% bonus, this could also work.

 

 

So let's make arty focus light tanks even more? No thanks. Or maybe nerf arties and then buff spall liner.

Geno1isme #7 Posted 04 April 2019 - 12:25 PM

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View Post4nt, on 04 April 2019 - 11:21 AM, said:

What would be the effect if spalls would reduce the end damage by current percentage?

 

It would dumb down HE even more than it already is. Also it would be a massive buff for all well-armored tanks, not doing much for paper tanks and be a massive nerf for all derpguns and arties. Result would be that derp-guns and arties would finally focus paper-tanks rather than heavy armor.

 

Using the Maus example: Hitting the front turret with a JPE HE shell (1400 alpha, 4.45m splash).

With current SHSL variant, and using turret armor for calculation, we get 1400*0.5-1.1*260*1.5=700-429=231 damage (16.5% of nominal alpha).

With your variant, we'd get (1400*0.5-1.1*260)*0.5=(700-286)*0.5=414*0.5=207 damage (14.8% of nominal alpha), so almost no change

 

When using deck armor for calculation, assuming a 1m impact distance however thing become a bit different:

With current SHSL variant: 1400*0.5*(1-1/4.45)-1.1*50*1.5=700*0.77-82=457 damage (32.6% of nominal alpha)

With your variant: (1400*0.5*(1-1/4.45)-1.1*50)*0.5=(700*0.77-55)*0.5=484*0.5=242 damage (17.3% of nominal alpha)

 

Same scenario with an E100 HE shell (950 alpha, 3.57m splash) would result in 46/260 damage for the current variant, and 94/143 damage for your variant.

 

So where right now it actually makes a difference where you hit a tank with HE, your idea would make it mostly irrelevant (unless it's a penshot).



4nt #8 Posted 04 April 2019 - 12:35 PM

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View PostGeno1isme, on 04 April 2019 - 12:25 PM, said:

 

It would dumb down HE even more than it already is. Also it would be a massive buff for all well-armored tanks, not doing much for paper tanks and be a massive nerf for all derpguns and arties. Result would be that derp-guns and arties would finally focus paper-tanks rather than heavy armor.

 

Using the Maus example: Hitting the front turret with a JPE HE shell (1400 alpha, 4.45m splash).

With current SHSL variant, and using turret armor for calculation, we get 1400*0.5-1.1*260*1.5=700-429=231 damage (16.5% of nominal alpha).

With your variant, we'd get (1400*0.5-1.1*260)*0.5=(700-286)*0.5=414*0.5=207 damage (14.8% of nominal alpha), so almost no change

 

When using deck armor for calculation, assuming a 1m impact distance however thing become a bit different:

With current SHSL variant: 1400*0.5*(1-1/4.45)-1.1*50*1.5=700*0.77-82=457 damage (32.6% of nominal alpha)

With your variant: (1400*0.5*(1-1/4.45)-1.1*50)*0.5=(700*0.77-55)*0.5=484*0.5=242 damage (17.3% of nominal alpha)

 

Same scenario with an E100 HE shell (950 alpha, 3.57m splash) would result in 46/260 damage for the current variant, and 94/143 damage for your variant.

 

So where right now it actually makes a difference where you hit a tank with HE, your idea would make it mostly irrelevant (unless it's a penshot).

Thanks, I had an inkling that it wouldn't work, but had to ask.

 

Still, it'd be good to have other reasonable options for equipment to rammer/gld/optics/vstab/vents.



gpalsson #9 Posted 04 April 2019 - 01:31 PM

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IMO spall liner should just give a % damage reduction to both penetrating and non penetrating HE hits. That way it would also be worth it for some light tanks, for some players.

It doesn't need to be very complicated and it would help against more than just arty too, plus people would't actually know what it does compared to having an advanced model for something that in most cases is pretty useless and that 90% of players don't understand anyway (what we have now).

 

It doesn't need to be rocket science, just make all equipment worth a slot depending on playstyle.

Like to play hull down? Ok, spall liner for you so clickbots and wheelies have a harder time - pay with DPM or viewrange or aimtime that would otherwise be in that slot. 

Wow WG, that wasn't so hard was it?

 


Edited by gpalsson, 04 April 2019 - 01:32 PM.


Dorander #10 Posted 04 April 2019 - 02:31 PM

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View PostGeno1isme, on 04 April 2019 - 11:25 AM, said:

 

It would dumb down HE even more than it already is. Also it would be a massive buff for all well-armored tanks, not doing much for paper tanks and be a massive nerf for all derpguns and arties. Result would be that derp-guns and arties would finally focus paper-tanks rather than heavy armor.

 

Using the Maus example: Hitting the front turret with a JPE HE shell (1400 alpha, 4.45m splash).

With current SHSL variant, and using turret armor for calculation, we get 1400*0.5-1.1*260*1.5=700-429=231 damage (16.5% of nominal alpha).

With your variant, we'd get (1400*0.5-1.1*260)*0.5=(700-286)*0.5=414*0.5=207 damage (14.8% of nominal alpha), so almost no change

 

When using deck armor for calculation, assuming a 1m impact distance however thing become a bit different:

With current SHSL variant: 1400*0.5*(1-1/4.45)-1.1*50*1.5=700*0.77-82=457 damage (32.6% of nominal alpha)

With your variant: (1400*0.5*(1-1/4.45)-1.1*50)*0.5=(700*0.77-55)*0.5=484*0.5=242 damage (17.3% of nominal alpha)

 

Same scenario with an E100 HE shell (950 alpha, 3.57m splash) would result in 46/260 damage for the current variant, and 94/143 damage for your variant.

 

So where right now it actually makes a difference where you hit a tank with HE, your idea would make it mostly irrelevant (unless it's a penshot).

 

It's a good point to not use a simple solution, but the percentages of the spall liners could be tweaked in order to refrain from massively overbuffing the SHSL. As a consequence the Spall Liner would be a viable piece of equipment for tanks with less thick armour too, rather than only the superheavies as it stands now, because they'd get relevant protection from non-penetrating hits and splash damage instead of a negligable reduction.

 

It's also worth pointing out it would STILL matter where you hit targets with your HE shell as even with a percentage reduction to HE damage from a spall liner, there would still be an absolute reduction to the damage value of 0.55*nominal armour thickness (assuming the SHSL of 50% reduction, which probably ought to be reduced in which case the 0.55 factor goes up again).



Japualtah #11 Posted 04 April 2019 - 03:10 PM

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View Post4nt, on 04 April 2019 - 10:21 AM, said:

What would be the effect if spalls would reduce the end damage by current percentage?

 

Makes sense + Easy = Never happen.
14:16 Added after 6 minutes

View PostGeno1isme, on 04 April 2019 - 12:25 PM, said:

 

It would dumb down HE even more than it already is.

 

Making things logic != dumbing things down.

The whole HE concept is obsolete and needs to be simplified. Not one player in 10000 understand the underlying computations, and no one should in the first place.

We are playing a fantasy game and if 100 is written on a shell, it should do 100, not from 0 to 100 according to the planets alignment.

 

Should they then review all ammunition values?

Hell yeah!

That's exactly what they are busy doing atm anyway, like we've been asking for years.






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