733 replies to this topic

[Claymored]

Arty numbers are getting ridiculous again and with the last patch 1 close hit=game over due to tank been crippled by crew and module damage.

[RoflSeal]

This is a fucking joke




3 out of 5 crewmembers dead by 1 arty shot.

Edited by RoflSeal, 30 June 2012 - 07:59 PM.

[Talriq]

Why is this a joke, with a big arty blast close by it seems quite possible.  Of course it may also be a way to encourage you to buy the Gold toolbox/repair kit.  Arty is powerful and needs to be borne in mind in the gameplay.

[MiH102]

fuuuk alll arty!!

[Harrelson]

fu wargaming. i hate you. useless team

[Loofah]

RoflSeal, on 30 June 2012 - 07:58 PM, said:

This is a fucking joke




3 out of 5 crewmembers dead by 1 arty shot.

Goddamn 150mm Hummel shot killed 2/4 of my IS4 crew with a shot to my 160mm side...

[Woel]

Loofah, on 02 July 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

Goddamn 150mm Hummel shot killed 2/4 of my IS4 crew with a shot to my 160mm side...

122mm gun through my gun mantlet. A few days ago a Panther kept shooting me with HE, broke half my modules and killed my loader twice. HE issue is not necessarily SPG issue.

[Loofah]

Well, of course not. New HE "feature" ruins gameplay. E100 firing HE and randomly crippling tanks etc. etc. But it's mostly arty issue.

[Loofah]

jezurka_jezic, on 03 July 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

heavy tanks destroy medium/light, artilery destroys heavy tanks and artilery destroyes light/medium tank, and that is called balance.

LOL.
Meds destroy heavies and lights. TDs destroy heavies, meds and lights. Heavies destroy meds, lights, TDs. Artillery slaughters everyone and is the only anti-artillery weapon that can kill artillery without getting shot in the face for 1000HP.
That's not balance. That's bullshit.
There is no "rock-paper-scissors" in this game. Heavies don't need "countering" because they are pretty damn killable with meds. Artillery is there to kill movement, maneuvers, flanking and hurts meds the most, because meds are the tanks that benefit the most from travelling around the map/using non-standard positions and artillery denies movement.

[CuteGargoyle]

Loofah, on 03 July 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

LOL.
Meds destroy heavies and lights. TDs destroy heavies, meds and lights. Heavies destroy meds, lights, TDs. Artillery slaughters everyone and is the only anti-artillery weapon that can kill artillery without getting shot in the face for 1000HP.
That's not balance. That's bullshit.
There is no "rock-paper-scissors" in this game. Heavies don't need "countering" because they are pretty damn killable with meds. Artillery is there to kill movement, maneuvers, flanking and hurts meds the most, because meds are the tanks that benefit the most from travelling around the map/using non-standard positions and artillery denies movement.

Artillery denies sitting still in the open. Move and you are damn hard to hit. Camp and Arty can move to get you. If you are flanking fast you are damn near impossible to hit (Ask a T-50 or AMX-13-  T44 or type 59 etc driver.)
Every tank in the game can kill the Arty. Not every tank in the game can kill (or even damage) the higher tier meds and heavies. Lights can however spot for arty. Balance (sort of)
If you really are getting blasted senseless by arty every single game. You may want to look at your tactics. I have played plenty games where I didn't hit one single tank. (and no I'm not that bad.)

jezurka_jezic, on 03 July 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

I read this new study in Jurnal of the american medical association that using artilery can be as deadly as using steroids, eventualy your balls will wither and fall off. (assuming u had a pair in the first place)

I read in The Lancet having balls will cause your brains to wither and drop out your ears. The effect appears to be immediate permanent and irreversible.

[Loofah]

CuteGargoyle, on 03 July 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

Artillery denies sitting still in the open. Move and you are damn hard to hit. Camp and Arty can move to get you. If you are flanking fast you are damn near impossible to hit (Ask a T-50 or AMX-13-  T44 or type 59 etc driver.)
Every tank in the game can kill the Arty. Not every tank in the game can kill (or even damage) the higher tier meds and heavies. Lights can however spot for arty. Balance (sort of)
If you really are getting blasted senseless by arty every single game. You may want to look at your tactics. I have played plenty games where I didn't hit one single tank. (and no I'm not that bad.)



I read in The Lancet having balls will cause your brains to wither and drop out your ears. The effect appears to be immediate permanent and irreversible.

You can't fire and move though. From 200m even Patton won't hit shit. So you stop, you die. With arty open areas are just there for some movement (and getting detracked by enemy fire and DIE by arty) - you can't fight there. So basically it is only useful when moving from 1 flank to the other. Too bad very often someone guards it so... Without arty trolling in the open (steppes f.e.) using small hills and rocks FTW. E50 on Steppes is marvellous f.e.

Edited by Loofah, 03 July 2012 - 10:44 PM.

[CuteGargoyle]

Loofah, on 03 July 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

You can't fire and move though. From 200m even Patton won't hit shit. So you stop, you die. With arty open areas are just there for some movement (and getting detracked by enemy fire and DIE by arty) - you can't fight there. So basically it is only useful when moving from 1 flank to the other. Too bad very often someone guards it so... Without arty trolling in the open (steppes f.e.) using small hills and rocks FTW. E50 on Steppes is marvellous f.e.

If I have to turn using the tracks (frequent on a Hummel the gun movement is small) it takes 7 seconds after movement stops to get a good aim. Yes at least a full 7 seconds and that is with the best modifiers available. The initial aim circle starts out so big it is outside of the visible screen (if you are zoomed in on a target) and then I just have to wait and wait and wait .

The smallest aim circle normally gives you about a 50/50 chance of a hit.  How long are you going to be stopped to fire? If it is longer than 5 seconds expect the pain to start, less than 5 and the chances of being missed go right up.

A de-tracking is Arty's best chance to get you. Buy a repair kit and use it quick. Don't drive in straight lines at constant speed either (we like that) and if you are going to do the "stop reverse forward" tactic (which is also hard for arty to predict) make sure the distance you cover is greater than the vehicle length, otherwise it is a pointless exercise. Everybody knows roughly where Arty positions, the choices aren't huge. The further away you are the longer the shell takes to get to you. Up to 5 seconds flight time on some maps. Try predicting where a moving tank is going to be in 5 seconds and place a shell there. (a T-50 can cross the entire zoomed out field of view in less than 5 seconds)

In a Hummel I would expect to have to get 4 good hits on an E50 (with 100%) to kill it. So with a 20 second reload time thats 1 min 20 seconds. How long are you gonna sit still again?

The problems really start when there is too much arty (more than 2) thats when you get smashed up really badly if you stop in the open.

jezurka_jezic, on 04 July 2012 - 03:32 AM, said:

The problem with artillery can be easily solved. Solution is ultar simple, at the start of each game, each team kills the artilery on their team. and voila, problem solved. I guaranty, after a week there will be no more artilery.

You forget that Arty is god like, all powerful and awesome (according to some posters) and any Arty can kill or seriously cripple absolutely anything in a single shot. (I wish)

So at the start of every game we could wipe out all the tanks in our own team with just one shot now that the frag is so fantastically  devastating. So it will be an Arty V Arty battle and nobody will be playing with tanks by the end of the week.

Ok the 20 second load time might be a minor problem. But if you would all just sit still and wait I am sure we could make it happen.

[Loofah]

CuteGargoyle, on 04 July 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

If I have to turn using the tracks (frequent on a Hummel the gun movement is small) it takes 7 seconds after movement stops to get a good aim. Yes at least a full 7 seconds and that is with the best modifiers available. The initial aim circle starts out so big it is outside of the visible screen (if you are zoomed in on a target) and then I just have to wait and wait and wait .

The smallest aim circle normally gives you about a 50/50 chance of a hit.  How long are you going to be stopped to fire? If it is longer than 5 seconds expect the pain to start, less than 5 and the chances of being missed go right up.

A de-tracking is Arty's best chance to get you. Buy a repair kit and use it quick. Don't drive in straight lines at constant speed either (we like that) and if you are going to do the "stop reverse forward" tactic (which is also hard for arty to predict) make sure the distance you cover is greater than the vehicle length, otherwise it is a pointless exercise. Everybody knows roughly where Arty positions, the choices aren't huge. The further away you are the longer the shell takes to get to you. Up to 5 seconds flight time on some maps. Try predicting where a moving tank is going to be in 5 seconds and place a shell there. (a T-50 can cross the entire zoomed out field of view in less than 5 seconds)

In a Hummel I would expect to have to get 4 good hits on an E50 (with 100%) to kill it. So with a 20 second reload time thats 1 min 20 seconds. How long are you gonna sit still again?

The problems really start when there is too much arty (more than 2) thats when you get smashed up really badly if you stop in the open.



You forget that Arty is god like, all powerful and awesome (according to some posters) and any Arty can kill or seriously cripple absolutely anything in a single shot. (I wish)

So at the start of every game we could wipe out all the tanks in our own team with just one shot now that the frag is so fantastically  devastating. So it will be an Arty V Arty battle and nobody will be playing with tanks by the end of the week.

Ok the 20 second load time might be a minor problem. But if you would all just sit still and wait I am sure we could make it happen.

With your huge numbers of T8 and T9 meds (0) you have no right to tell me how to avoid artillery with meds. And you have probably no experience with playing vs arty in large numbers that knows what they're doing in your meds, so case closed, really.

Artillery has around 12 degrees of firing arc. This is absolutely enough to kill a med if you know what you're doing. also med can't drive perpendicular to your LOF all the time. It actually pretty often doesn't. So again - no problem. If he zig-zaggs - no problem, he won't escape splash and the chance of direct hit is actually almost just as good because artillery shells fly random. He would have to zig-zagg 50m to the left, then 50m to the right, making him awfully slow, easy to hit. Remember, when you move like an idiot in the open, everybody can shoot you. When you stop and use cover to hide your hull (like behind those ;little pieces of elevated terrain on Steppes) - you will be mostly safe from normal tanks. You can't move and be effective, you have to stop and hide and fire, which results in a quick death by arty.
If you get detracked and use repair kit, you'll die anyway, because arty will hit you easily - meds don't gain speed fast enough to really "outrun" a shell that has been fire with proper lead. And even if it misses by 3m - 700HP lost by splash is nothing new.

5s flight time is basically pure bullshit. I have nice mod that shows the estimated flight time, and 3s is what happens at... max range of obj. 212. Most often it's like 1,5-2s. Also artillery can be as close as 200-300m away and be safe, because all arty needs is any obstacle in-between you and it that stops you from spotting/firing at artillery. In such cases - even T50-2 gets hit.

And Hummel is the smallest problem of my E50. What is the real problem are T6+ arties. All of them are quite accurate, can easily take me out. And BTW Hummel is a problem too - can penetrate the side armor, can deal up to 1000HP, can "just" deal 450HP (as much as a shot from T10 tank) and kill half of my crew. And it's not that hard to hit with Hummel because it is fairly accurate aaaaand E50 is big as a barn and as I've said - you can't fight without stopping.

My in-game results prove that I'm probably pretty damn good at avoiding artillery. Too bad I'm not good enough. Nobody is. Because it's impossible to avoid it, so you have to use certain routes that make the risk a bit smaller, but it's not like you are even remotely safe, because most maps provide limited/no arty cover on the assault paths, unless you camp like crazy or peek-a-boo with enemy who exposes themselves to your artillery.

Edited by Loofah, 04 July 2012 - 12:26 PM.

[CuteGargoyle]

Loofah, on 04 July 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

Please read above, I don't want to swamp the thread with reposts.

Your right the largest med I have is the T44. Smallish, fast, quick acceleration and maneuverable, It very rarely gets slotted by Arty but as you say you can't avoid it completely. I'm will confess to being a rubbish tank driver against other tanks though.   Still a 47% or so win ratio isn't the worst I've seen. I'm still learning. And sometimes S**t just happens.

As you probably saw I have some experience in Arty (More battles in my Hummel than you have in both of your top 2 meds combined). I am not bad and I know the tactics others use that successfully makes me and other Arty miss. (And I use them in my T44) So I do have the knowledge and a right to explain how to drive to avoid Arty. Case not so closed.

12 degrees of firing arc will cover about 13% of a 90 degree field of view. (if you jam yourself in the corner) If all the tanks appear in that 13% for you? That is really lucky. OK you can stare at choke points (and who doesn't) but there are always more than one of them on a map. I can't think of many that are in the same 12 degrees of view. And if you are at the centre on the baseline the field of view could be 180 degrees. (Never is because of terrain although some maps do get close.) Even within the field of view the point and fire time isn't zero. 7 seconds to zero on a stop to stop swing with no track movement less for lower movement angles down to zero for no movement.

3 seconds fire to hit at Stepps. (Not any fancy add in mod just the stopwatch method.) Diagonals will be a longer and I don't think this is the biggest map.

I guess you already know this but trying to hide from Arty once you have been seen is pretty pointless unless you can move right out of line of sight of everything or behind something really solid. Even that is no guarantee if a stationary cammed up scout can see you. (e.g. an AMX12 with binos and fancy optics, sits still, doesn't move, doesn't fire so can't be seen. Arty eyes all the way.)

Your win stats for your Arty are OK (51% ish) If Arty really was all overpowering surely this should be much higher?

As long as I can get through the rest of the opposition team unscathed, my T-50 gets to drive right up to their Arty 95% of the time whether it sees me or not. Trust me, apart from you, nearly all Arty hates T-50s of either type or those AMX-13s charging at them. Are you really saying you can shoot them one shot every time?

Of course Arty can damage you regardless of what you are driving (even Hummels and Grilles) otherwise it would be totally  pointless having Arty in the game. The upper tier Arty does vast amounts of damage because they have vast guns. Even they can be killed by a T-50 and the reload times on them are stupendous. 30-40 seconds.

If Arty was removed from the game how much fun would it be being a Scout? If you knew that in every game you played you could damage nothing on the opposing team other than their scout (Happens now) would you even bother?

Tell you what. You bring your S-51 I'll take my T-44  and we will go head to head. Bet you don't win much.
I wouldn't like a Hummel v E50 match up either thanks.

Arty isn't overpowering in limited numbers and in balanced games. When you start getting 4,5 or 6 on each side or high tier Arty in the upper part of a team. That is when it starts getting stupid. I am all for limiting the numbers to 2 max per team and keeping the Arty in the lower half of a team. (Well at least until everybody is in a high tier vehicle.) Yep. 4 or 5 kills is easy if you can one shot everybody on the map. Personal best is 7. All one shots. In a game we lost
Stick me in a higher tier match and I can hit lots of tanks, sometimes three or four times, and leave the game with no kills at all.

We probably agree that the current state of play with Arty is not ideal.
We probably disagree on how to fix it.

[Loofah]

CuteGargoyle, on 04 July 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

Please read above, I don't want to swamp the thread with reposts.

Your right the largest med I have is the T44. Smallish, fast, quick acceleration and maneuverable, It very rarely gets slotted by Arty but as you say you can't avoid it completely. I'm will confess to being a rubbish tank driver against other tanks though.   Still a 47% or so win ratio isn't the worst I've seen. I'm still learning. And sometimes S**t just happens.

As you probably saw I have some experience in Arty (More battles in my Hummel than you have in both of your top 2 meds combined). I am not bad and I know the tactics others use that successfully makes me and other Arty miss. (And I use them in my T44) So I do have the knowledge and a right to explain how to drive to avoid Arty. Case not so closed.

12 degrees of firing arc will cover about 13% of a 90 degree field of view. (if you jam yourself in the corner) If all the tanks appear in that 13% for you? That is really lucky. OK you can stare at choke points (and who doesn't) but there are always more than one of them on a map. I can't think of many that are in the same 12 degrees of view. And if you are at the centre on the baseline the field of view could be 180 degrees. (Never is because of terrain although some maps do get close.) Even within the field of view the point and fire time isn't zero. 7 seconds to zero on a stop to stop swing with no track movement less for lower movement angles down to zero for no movement.

3 seconds fire to hit at Stepps. (Not any fancy add in mod just the stopwatch method.) Diagonals will be a longer and I don't think this is the biggest map.

I guess you already know this but trying to hide from Arty once you have been seen is pretty pointless unless you can move right out of line of sight of everything or behind something really solid. Even that is no guarantee if a stationary cammed up scout can see you. (e.g. an AMX12 with binos and fancy optics, sits still, doesn't move, doesn't fire so can't be seen. Arty eyes all the way.)

Your win stats for your Arty are OK (51% ish) If Arty really was all overpowering surely this should be much higher?

As long as I can get through the rest of the opposition team unscathed, my T-50 gets to drive right up to their Arty 95% of the time whether it sees me or not. Trust me, apart from you, nearly all Arty hates T-50s of either type or those AMX-13s charging at them. Are you really saying you can shoot them one shot every time?

Of course Arty can damage you regardless of what you are driving (even Hummels and Grilles) otherwise it would be totally  pointless having Arty in the game. The upper tier Arty does vast amounts of damage because they have vast guns. Even they can be killed by a T-50 and the reload times on them are stupendous. 30-40 seconds.

If Arty was removed from the game how much fun would it be being a Scout? If you knew that in every game you played you could damage nothing on the opposing team other than their scout (Happens now) would you even bother?

Tell you what. You bring your S-51 I'll take my T-44  and we will go head to head. Bet you don't win much.
I wouldn't like a Hummel v E50 match up either thanks.

Arty isn't overpowering in limited numbers and in balanced games. When you start getting 4,5 or 6 on each side or high tier Arty in the upper part of a team. That is when it starts getting stupid. I am all for limiting the numbers to 2 max per team and keeping the Arty in the lower half of a team. (Well at least until everybody is in a high tier vehicle.) Yep. 4 or 5 kills is easy if you can one shot everybody on the map. Personal best is 7. All one shots. In a game we lost
Stick me in a higher tier match and I can hit lots of tanks, sometimes three or four times, and leave the game with no kills at all.

We probably agree that the current state of play with Arty is not ideal.
We probably disagree on how to fix it.

Win stats with arty don't mean shit. I'm killed by scouts from time to time, and even good arty player can't stop his team from playing like idiots, while good heavy can win a CITY battle while a good med can spot enemy arty (and die in 3s). Also artillery is so damn random (one round you 1-shot M103, the other - 600 damage to Lorraine's side) So basically - artillery's only way of winning is dealing damage. As you can see, I have over 2330 damage on obj. 212 which is pretty nice, but bad artillery players score around 1800. 530 damage won't win more than 3% of battles, and I'm exactly there (average is 48-something because of draws). But that doesn't mean that artillery is not the main force on the battlefield. It just can't win by itself, but sure as hell it can enforce certain playstyle upon everyone. That's what makes it OP. And its damage dealing capabilities are on part with T10 heavy (speaking of T8 arty) but with much much more fear factor (you can run away from heavy behind anything that blocks LOF, you can't run away from arty).

12 degrees of firing arc is enough, you position yourself properly during reload and then just catch those flies who get inside of it. That lonely med won't escape if you know your job.


And BTW I'm not a fan of T50-2 and other superscouts. Because they ruin any balance in the gameplay and are even more random than artillery. Also have WAY too much influence on the battlefield. I'm winning 62% of battles in my Vk28 which gets thrown into T10 battles very often. And I'm not even trying hard, I'm just driving it when I'm drunk. But it wins - get into good spotting position and your arty/Tanks slaughter everyone.

Edited by Loofah, 04 July 2012 - 04:04 PM.

[CuteGargoyle]

Can't drink drive. Not old enough.

We can at least agree that Arty is just a damage dealer.
We may also agree that it is an area denial weapon. (I believe as it should be.) Although it shouldn't make the area a complete no go zone if you are willing to take some damage.

All the tanks enforce a different play styles surely. Not many Tier 10s trundle up that hill in Himmelsdorf. So if you want to avoid them, go there.
We probably also agree that even the best Arty shouldn't be able to one shot highest tier tanks. (2 shots at least )
Yes the damage is random, the gun accuracy is also random. One begets the other probably.

I still don't think Arty is OP per say, it is just badly matched and distributed to teams.

[sword_of_Damocles]

Another fun moment

Spoiler

Something must be done.This shot landed at least 5 metres away from me

Edited by sword_of_Damocles, 05 July 2012 - 03:11 PM.

[mihi999]

So then when you gonna remove the dumb arty from the game or atleast nerf the HE shells?

1 shot and 4 crew members down only the driver left.

or they shoot like 2 meters before me and my gun is piece of .... cant repair it cause its allready second time that thi happend?

[Panzerkeks85]

Leave arty but nerf the goddamn HE-shells!

One direct arty hit = 3 crew members dead, tons of module damage etc.
Is that WG's idea of a fun and balanced game??

[CuteGargoyle]

sword_of_Damocles, on 05 July 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

Another fun moment

Spoiler

Something must be done.This shot landed at least 5 metres away from me

.

Pity we can't tell if it was a gold or a standard shell.
The splash range on GwPanther shells is 3.5m for a standard and 5.1m for the gold.
I guess the GwTiger is only slightly bigger.(although that 21cm gun is a monster)

If it had direct hit you I might expect to deal that much damage, but I wouldn't expect anywhere near that much just from splash.
De tracking yes, possibly the gunner if you were really unlucky, but not the near 50% damage.

Was this the first damaging hit you received? or had you taken a hit from something else before this?