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burbage1 #1 Posted 09 April 2019 - 09:51 AM

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I put this response into a recently shut down thread on a SBMM. It's more about general tactics. Skill, of course, makes a difference, but this is not about the matchmaker.

 

If both teams attack then the result is usually a whitewash but would be fairly random. Game is short

If both teams defend, the game will usually be close. Game is long, may draw.

If one team attacks and the other defends, the defender will almost always win by significant margin. Game is medium to long. 

 

Defending doesn't mean sitting in the base, it means going to the bottlenecks and letting the other team poke.

 

The way to ensure victory in WOT is not to have a skilled team, it's to understand basic battle tactics: you need a 3:1 advantage in numbers before you attack a defended position. Even a bad player can shoot a tank that comes over a hill. Of course, WG try to make the maps as hard to defend as possible.

 

Edited to add: Getting 15 random players to understand this is the problem. Many players with high WN8 seem to have no idea. In fact they are usually the ones who instigate the everyone attacks strategy, since that can result in lots of damage. The flaw in WN8 is a loss is not penalised enough.

 

BravelyRanAway commented on this post by saying that this is true in the real world, but not in WOT.

 

I agree, as I said, the game tries to mitigate this. But, a tank that is hull down is harder to hit than a tank that is exposing itself by poking, so I still think you need a 2:1 advantage before attacking. It's worth further discussion though. 



The_Naa #2 Posted 09 April 2019 - 10:00 AM

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Its Random battles. They are always random.

You see those guys pinging the map 100 times after they die without typing anything. They clearly are trying to aply tactics but they usually get ignored.

If you dont go where the spam the map the most you are the reason why tactics in RB are dead.

Edit: with "you" I dont mean the OP but generally who reads this post. :)


Edited by The_Naa, 09 April 2019 - 10:02 AM.


Quint_Gen #3 Posted 09 April 2019 - 10:10 AM

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View Postburbage1, on 09 April 2019 - 09:51 AM, said:

 The flaw in WN8 is a loss is not penalised enough.

Very true. Also not all damage is equal. Damage when one team is 3 or 4 tanks up or in a vastly superiour position isn't worth as much as damage when teams are balanced.

 

View PostThe_Naa, on 09 April 2019 - 10:00 AM, said:

Its Random battles. They are always random.

You see those guys pinging the map 100 times after they die without typing anything. They clearly are trying to aply tactics but they usually get ignored.

If you dont go where the spam the map the most you are the reason why tactics in RB are dead.

Edit: with "you" I dont mean the OP but generally who reads this post. :)

"Clearly trying to apply tactics" No. they are just being irritating.

 

One reason I am so bad at this game is I can never judge correctly whether I should be pusing or holding back.



DA_ZOHAN #4 Posted 09 April 2019 - 10:18 AM

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If you want tactics in this game, you need to play team battles, advances, skirmishes, & CW.

Expecting tactics and teamplay in random games is kind of childish.

I sometimes tag along a 2-3 man platoon, hoping that by doing so, there will be some level of team play, quite a few times, the platoon mates get annoyed by it and start pushing and bumping my tank.  As if I am disturbing them or stealing their dmg, or hindering their ability to do some mission and such.



burbage1 #5 Posted 09 April 2019 - 10:59 AM

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View PostDA_ZOHAN, on 09 April 2019 - 10:18 AM, said:

Expecting tactics and teamplay in random games is kind of childish.

Childish, with its negative English connotations is probably not the right word, but I appreciate that not everyone here is a native English speaker. Naive, perhaps.

 

I did point out that this was the problem. I also think that as long as nonsense like WN8 is around people are more focused on damage than winning. I think WN8 has a place. For example, if your team is outskilled by the opponents you are even better off taking a defensive approach. I think that win rate is a better measure though, and if WG put win rate, wot rating and games played into the pre-game battle table I think WN8 might go away. It is useful to know what you're up against. A T34 with a five skill crew is not equal to a T34 with a no skill crew, so it isn't just about the tank.



UserZer00 #6 Posted 09 April 2019 - 11:23 AM

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View PostDA_ZOHAN, on 09 April 2019 - 10:18 AM, said:

If you want tactics in this game, you need to play team battles, advances, skirmishes, & CW.

Expecting tactics and teamplay in random games is kind of childish.

I sometimes tag along a 2-3 man platoon, hoping that by doing so, there will be some level of team play, quite a few times, the platoon mates get annoyed by it and start pushing and bumping my tank.  As if I am disturbing them or stealing their dmg, or hindering their ability to do some mission and such.

If you keep pushing it usually means you have less time to play about 9 months later.

 

If you hold back you may miss out on the end game climax, but you'll be more available for the marathon missions.

 

Your best bet is to ensure that you have proper protection before pushing.  That way you get the best of both worlds.



DA_ZOHAN #7 Posted 09 April 2019 - 12:02 PM

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View PostUserZer00, on 09 April 2019 - 12:23 PM, said:

If you keep pushing it usually means you have less time to play about 9 months later.

 

If you hold back you may miss out on the end game climax, but you'll be more available for the marathon missions.

 

Your best bet is to ensure that you have proper protection before pushing.  That way you get the best of both worlds.

 

Well, considering that I have 4 children, I guess I have done my fair share of pushing without proper protection.

I still stand by my post  .-)



UserZer00 #8 Posted 09 April 2019 - 12:18 PM

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View PostDA_ZOHAN, on 09 April 2019 - 12:02 PM, said:

 

Well, considering that I have 4 children, I guess I have done my fair share of pushing without proper protection.

I still stand by my post  .-)

Stay strong.  I'm sure WG will still have tank marathons on 18 years.

 

(And will still be balancing arty, MM, etc.....)



DA_ZOHAN #9 Posted 09 April 2019 - 12:19 PM

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View PostUserZer00, on 09 April 2019 - 01:18 PM, said:

Stay strong.  I'm sure WG will still have tank marathons on 18 years.

 

(And will still be balancing arty, MM, etc.....)

 

haha.

Homer_J #10 Posted 09 April 2019 - 01:03 PM

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View Postburbage1, on 09 April 2019 - 09:51 AM, said:

 

If one team attacks and the other defends, the defender will almost always win by significant margin.

 

In randoms, nope.  The team which camps gets picked off one by one and over run.  If defending worked at all well then Assault mode would be even more of a failure.

Rati_Festa #11 Posted 09 April 2019 - 01:17 PM

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View PostQuint_Gen, on 09 April 2019 - 10:10 AM, said:

Very true. Also not all damage is equal. Damage when one team is 3 or 4 tanks up or in a vastly superiour position isn't worth as much as damage when teams are balanced.

 

"Clearly trying to apply tactics" No. they are just being irritating.

 

One reason I am so bad at this game is I can never judge correctly whether I should be pusing or holding back.

 

Classic wot reply, ignores instructions of others and dismisses the idea as irritating, then immediately admits doesn't know what to do in game :)

 

Laugh of cry?

 

Perhaps the person is trying to tell you something you should have done??????? 



Quint_Gen #12 Posted 09 April 2019 - 02:16 PM

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View PostRati_Festa, on 09 April 2019 - 01:17 PM, said:

 

Classic wot reply, ignores instructions of others and dismisses the idea as irritating, then immediately admits doesn't know what to do in game :)

 

Laugh of cry?

 

Perhaps the person is trying to tell you something you should have done??????? 

 

You honestly think clickspammers understand the game? Or were you just looking for an excuse to be rude?

burbage1 #13 Posted 09 April 2019 - 02:21 PM

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View PostHomer_J, on 09 April 2019 - 01:03 PM, said:

 

In randoms, nope.  The team which camps gets picked off one by one and over run.  If defending worked at all well then Assault mode would be even more of a failure.

 

Camping and defending are two different things. Assault mode, though, is an interesting point. If the defending team actually tried defending they should win most of the time. Most players still think that getting damage is the point of the game.

 

In a proper defensive strategy, your TDs and Arty will get most of the damage, heavies soak up damage without doing much, light tanks wouldn't even need guns but have to spot flankers and mediums are only needed if the enemy tries to flank.

 

 



TheDrownedApe #14 Posted 09 April 2019 - 02:25 PM

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View Postburbage1, on 09 April 2019 - 08:51 AM, said:

Many players with high WN8 seem to have no idea. In fact they are usually the ones who instigate the everyone attacks strategy, since that can result in lots of damage. The flaw in WN8 is a loss is not penalised enough.

 

 

 

is that why they also happen to have high winrates too?

pecopad #15 Posted 09 April 2019 - 02:25 PM

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Even in CW the most aggressive teams are the ones that win.

 

Tanks were not made to be defensive, mobility = initiative =advantage for the first mover.



TheDrownedApe #16 Posted 09 April 2019 - 02:30 PM

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its completelty pointless to try and pinpoint the best strategy for this game, as there isn't one.



burbage1 #17 Posted 09 April 2019 - 02:31 PM

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View PostTheDrownedApe, on 09 April 2019 - 02:25 PM, said:

 

is that why they also happen to have high winrates too?

 

Not sure that's true for all high WN8 players, is it? They certainly don't need a high win rate to have a high WN8. Some certainly do, I don't deny that.

 

But I should probably modify my original statement. Read "Players who are chasing a high WN8" instead of "players with high WN8". 

13:37 Added after 5 minutes

View Postpecopad, on 09 April 2019 - 02:25 PM, said:

Even in CW the most aggressive teams are the ones that win.

 

Tanks were not made to be defensive, mobility = initiative =advantage for the first mover.

 

Sadly, in WOT, we don't have any infantry to hold the line. But tanks were certainly used as mobile reserves to counteract breakthroughs, so they did have a defensive role.
13:39 Added after 7 minutes

View Postpecopad, on 09 April 2019 - 02:25 PM, said:

Even in CW the most aggressive teams are the ones that win.

 

Tanks were not made to be defensive, mobility = initiative =advantage for the first mover.

 

Not done CW, so I'll take your word for it. There is no question that WG have worked hard to make defending hard. Probably necessary in a 15min game.

 



Rati_Festa #18 Posted 09 April 2019 - 03:02 PM

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View PostQuint_Gen, on 09 April 2019 - 02:16 PM, said:

 

You honestly think clickspammers understand the game? Or were you just looking for an excuse to be rude?

 

I honestly think you don't understand the game, as you admitted it and you have bad stats.

 

Everyone else I judge by their words, actions and results.

 

Think about the scenario you are stating, you declare you don't know when to push or not and you frequently see people click spamming..... ????? I wonder why this keeps occuring in your games?

 

If you consider it rude to explain to you basic logic, perhaps you need to start absorbing feedback a little differently? Do I think all click spammers are bad players, no I don't at all, some of them will be better than you and I no doubt. You have a wn8 of 648 so I would bet that a hell of a lot of the players click spammers do understand the game better than you. 

 

Declaring all map clicking as spam or irratating isn't a good mindset on how to learn how to play better. Perhaps when you see it reflect and consider what you did wrong if anything?



Mosjmosh #19 Posted 09 April 2019 - 03:26 PM

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Block Quote

 Edited to add: Getting 15 random players to understand this is the problem. Many players with high WN8 seem to have no idea. In fact they are usually the ones who instigate the everyone attacks strategy, since that can result in lots of damage. The flaw in WN8 is a loss is not penalised enough.

 I play aggressive in order to get an advantage early on. Which to me is much more enjoyable and sensible than two dug in teams trying to shoot each others cupolas.

 

Apparently this is not a strategy tho...

 

 



Quint_Gen #20 Posted 09 April 2019 - 03:29 PM

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View PostRati_Festa, on 09 April 2019 - 03:02 PM, said:

 

I honestly think you don't understand the game, as you admitted it and you have bad stats.

 

Everyone else I judge by their words, actions and results.

 

Think about the scenario you are stating, you declare you don't know when to push or not and you frequently see people click spamming..... ????? I wonder why this keeps occuring in your games?

 

If you consider it rude to explain to you basic logic, perhaps you need to start absorbing feedback a little differently? Do I think all click spammers are bad players, no I don't at all, some of them will be better than you and I no doubt. You have a wn8 of 648 so I would bet that a hell of a lot of the players click spammers do understand the game better than you. 

 

Declaring all map clicking as spam or irratating isn't a good mindset on how to learn how to play better. Perhaps when you see it reflect and consider what you did wrong if anything?

 

Yes let's think about the scenario, good advice. I was talking about "You see those guys pinging the map 100 times after they die without typing anything. They clearly are trying to aply tactics but they usually get ignored." So someone on the green team is dead and they click the map 10 times in the same place (I reckon 100 was an exageration, don't you so we'll go with 10). This person is certainly clickspamming, or do you disagree? Now how likely do you think it is that a person silly enough to clickspam like that is giving good advice even to a bad player like me? I reckon such a person has a mix of your arrogance and my skill. Don't you think? Or do you think I am the only bad player in the game?

 

"you declare you don't know when to push or not and you frequently see people click spamming" Where did I say I frequently see people clickspamming? "Declaring all map clicking as spam or irratating isn't a good mindset on how to learn how to play better." No it isn't. Which is why I didn't say that. At all.

 

As for *your* "feedback", when it's relevant to what I actually typed, I'll consider it.

 






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