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RNG to hit - is cover pointless?


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burbage1 #1 Posted 11 April 2019 - 09:07 AM

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I am observing that I seem to hit an enemy tank just as frequently when I can only see the top of their turret as when I can see their whole tank. Is that my imagination. Surely the amount of the tank you can see should impose stiffer and stiffer negative modifiers on to hit RNG. But I just don't see it. if there is a modifier it seems very small. Is this my imagination? As long as I can red line the tank I get the same chance to hit? It should be practically impossible to hit a tank if you can only see the top of the turret.

HassenderZerhacker #2 Posted 11 April 2019 - 09:27 AM

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View Postburbage1, on 11 April 2019 - 09:07 AM, said:

I am observing that I seem to hit an enemy tank just as frequently when I can only see the top of their turret as when I can see their whole tank. Is that my imagination. Surely the amount of the tank you can see should impose stiffer and stiffer negative modifiers on to hit RNG. But I just don't see it. if there is a modifier it seems very small. Is this my imagination? As long as I can red line the tank I get the same chance to hit? It should be practically impossible to hit a tank if you can only see the top of the turret.

 

it's not your imagination - shells are often "magically guided" to achieve a certain result wanted by the server. The wanted result can be a pen, in which case you will hit even the tiniest weakspots from 400m away, or the wanted result can be "no damage" in which case you will either hit a heavily armored part or some terrain (cover). Usually pens and no damage shots are clustered by game, meaning if at the start of the battle you notice your shots hit and damage enemies more than expected, this is likely to continue until the end of the battle.

burbage1 #3 Posted 11 April 2019 - 09:37 AM

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So cover is only for LOS not for protection. Might as well play on a polo field.
08:39 Added after 2 minutes
I haven't seen a single tutorial cover this. New players should know that if they expose 1% of their tank they are just as likely to be hit as when they expose the whole thing. No wonder everyone charges aggressively about. You are harder to hit if you're moving than if you are hiding behind a rock.

Tom_Deekanarry #4 Posted 11 April 2019 - 09:40 AM

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Everyone knows leaves and twigs can stop armour defeating rounds!

 

 

Oh hang on!



Jigabachi #5 Posted 11 April 2019 - 09:41 AM

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View Postburbage1, on 11 April 2019 - 09:07 AM, said:

I am observing that I seem to hit an enemy tank just as frequently when I can only see the top of their turret as when I can see their whole tank. Is that my imagination. Surely the amount of the tank you can see should impose stiffer and stiffer negative modifiers on to hit RNG. But I just don't see it. if there is a modifier it seems very small. Is this my imagination? As long as I can red line the tank I get the same chance to hit? It should be practically impossible to hit a tank if you can only see the top of the turret.

It's your imagination.



jabster #6 Posted 11 April 2019 - 09:42 AM

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View Postburbage1, on 11 April 2019 - 08:37 AM, said:

So cover is only for LOS not for protection. Might as well play on a polo field.
08:39 Added after 2 minutes
I haven't seen a single tutorial cover this. New players should know that if they expose 1% of their tank they are just as likely to be hit as when they expose the whole thing. No wonder everyone charges aggressively about. You are harder to hit if you're moving than if you are hiding behind a rock.

 

The reason you haven't see that in a single tutorial is because it's not true.

burbage1 #7 Posted 11 April 2019 - 09:42 AM

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View PostJigabachi, on 11 April 2019 - 09:41 AM, said:

It's your imagination.

 

So how come I can even hit a tank I can just see an atom of? It should be impossible.

Laatikkomafia #8 Posted 11 April 2019 - 09:42 AM

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Even if there is heavy RNG where shots go, covering up the weakspots and minimizing exposure does decrease the enemies' chance to hit and pen you.

 

EDIT: Looking at your tank pool, all of them can be penned with autoaim, let alone properly aiming :P


Edited by Laatikkomafia, 11 April 2019 - 09:44 AM.


burbage1 #9 Posted 11 April 2019 - 09:43 AM

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View Postjabster, on 11 April 2019 - 09:42 AM, said:

 

The reason you haven't see that in a single tutorial is because it's not true.

 

So what negative modification is made? It can't be very large?

 

08:44 Added after 0 minutes

View PostLaatikkomafia, on 11 April 2019 - 09:42 AM, said:

Even if there is heavy RNG where shots go, covering up the weakspots and minimizing exposure does decrease the enemies' chance to hit and pen you.

 

Only talking to hit not to pen.

Axelfoley666 #10 Posted 11 April 2019 - 09:50 AM

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Wheeled Vehicle, moving at max speed, 400 metres away, you are moving max speed, you hit, kill crew, damage wheels, HOW??? 

 

Heavy Tank, static, broad side to you, 100 metres away, you fully aimed, 5 skill crew, accurate gun, you static, Hits the moon, HOW???

 

World of Tanks, Welcome to the suck.

 

Return to garage, try again :teethhappy:



Dorander #11 Posted 11 April 2019 - 09:54 AM

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View Postburbage1, on 11 April 2019 - 08:42 AM, said:

 

So how come I can even hit a tank I can just see an atom of? It should be impossible.

 

 

Please learn the difference. Improbable things happen all the time. Hard cover is the best defense you have in this game, you just need to realize which parts of your tank are left explosed and who can hit you from where as a result. People hit your exposed parts, because they are aiming for it and most shots will hit close to the vicinity of where you aim.

 

Here's an explanation: http://wiki.wargamin...echanics#Aiming

 

In terms of an aimcircle your shot disperson looks like this, circles before 9.6 and after patch 9.6 where it was slightly changed:

 

 

So there's no magic going on at all, no stranger things, and definitely not an equal chance to hit any exposed part of your tank. It's simple probabilities that deal with where people aim. You probably never noticed how many shots actually miss you when you're behind a rock 'cause they overshoot or impact your hard cover, I guarantee you you are better off behind a rock than not behind a rock.



jabster #12 Posted 11 April 2019 - 10:00 AM

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View Postburbage1, on 11 April 2019 - 08:42 AM, said:

 

So how come I can even hit a tank I can just see an atom of? It should be impossible.

 

Because the shell has to go somewhere.



burbage1 #13 Posted 11 April 2019 - 10:04 AM

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It may be harder to hit, but not significantly harder. I'm observing this more from the shooter's point of view. So in 9.6 it got easier to hit the target. No wonder I'm noticing it more. 

 

If the amount of tank you're exposing is the size of a rabbit, it should be just as hard to hit as, well, a rabbit.

09:07 Added after 2 minutes
It's not the game mechanics I'm worried about. Now that I know that the game essentially treats cover unrealistically as a very minor modifier, then I'll take it into account. Only took me 10K+ games to realise it. 

jabster #14 Posted 11 April 2019 - 10:08 AM

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View Postburbage1, on 11 April 2019 - 09:04 AM, said:

It may be harder to hit, but not significantly harder. I'm observing this more from the shooter's point of view. So in 9.6 it got easier to hit the target. No wonder I'm noticing it more. 

 

If the amount of tank you're exposing is the size of a rabbit, it should be just as hard to hit as, well, a rabbit.

 

No, as less shots hit the center of the target and 9.6 was released before you even created your account.



burbage1 #15 Posted 11 April 2019 - 10:17 AM

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View Postjabster, on 11 April 2019 - 10:08 AM, said:

 

No, as less shots hit the center of the target and 9.6 was released before you even created your account.

 

My EU account. The other reason I may not have noticed this before is that I used to play from Australia on the Asia server. So I had 180ms ping to deal with, which made gunnery pretty tricky.



jabster #16 Posted 11 April 2019 - 10:20 AM

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View Postburbage1, on 11 April 2019 - 09:17 AM, said:

 

My EU account. The other reason I may not have noticed this before is that I used to play from Australia on the Asia server. So I had 180ms ping to deal with, which made gunnery pretty tricky.

 

Yep hard cover makes no difference what so ever, that is the answer you want right?

Traxx293 #17 Posted 11 April 2019 - 10:25 AM

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View Postburbage1, on 11 April 2019 - 09:07 AM, said:

I am observing that I seem to hit an enemy tank just as frequently when I can only see the top of their turret as when I can see their whole tank. Is that my imagination. Surely the amount of the tank you can see should impose stiffer and stiffer negative modifiers on to hit RNG. But I just don't see it. if there is a modifier it seems very small. Is this my imagination? As long as I can red line the tank I get the same chance to hit? It should be practically impossible to hit a tank if you can only see the top of the turret.

 

Most vehicles have a commander's cupola on top that can range from minuscule to ridiculously huge that is typically a weak point that players aim at for a higher chance of penetrating damage. It doesn't matter if the whole tank is visible or just the cupola itself. If the accuracy of your gun isn't lousy, you still stand a good chance of hitting it with careful aim even if it's sticking up from behind a rock or the tank is in a ditch, trench or depression in the landscape. It doesn't mean the value of cover is negated, just that the player probably doesn't realize they are leaving what is typically one of the weakest parts of their armor exposed to enemy fire. 

Edited by Traxx293, 11 April 2019 - 10:27 AM.


burbage1 #18 Posted 11 April 2019 - 10:27 AM

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View Postjabster, on 11 April 2019 - 10:20 AM, said:

 

Yep hard cover makes no difference what so ever, that is the answer you want right?

 

That's the answer I'm going with. Better to think that way in this game than to expect much protection from it. Answer: It doesn't make you harder to hit, but it means you can only be hit in the exposed parts of your tank. 

jabster #19 Posted 11 April 2019 - 10:29 AM

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View Postburbage1, on 11 April 2019 - 09:27 AM, said:

 

That's the answer I'm going with. Better to think that way in this game than to expect much protection from it. Answer: It doesn't make you harder to hit, but it means you can only be hit in the exposed parts of your tank. 

 

Excellent so now you can play without using had cover at all.

burbage1 #20 Posted 11 April 2019 - 10:30 AM

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View PostTraxx293, on 11 April 2019 - 10:25 AM, said:

 

Most vehicles have a commander's cupola on top that can range from minuscule to ridiculously huge that is typically a weak point that players aim at for a higher chance of penetrating damage. It doesn't matter if the whole tank is visible or just the cupola itself. If the accuracy of your gun isn't lousy, you still stand a good chance of hitting it with careful aim even if it's sticking up from behind a rock or the tank is in a ditch, trench or depression in the landscape. It doesn't mean the value of cover is negated, just that the player probably doesn't realize they are leaving what is typically one of the weakest parts of their armor exposed to enemy fire. 

Yep. The to hit chance is what I'm talking about only. Not the fragility of the exposed part of the tank. If I ask you to throw rocks at a barn door you'll hit it most of the time. If I switch out the barn door for a bottle, you should not hit with the same frequency. It doesn't matter that the bottle will suffer more damage if you do hit it.  That's all I'm saying.

09:31 Added after 1 minute

View Postjabster, on 11 April 2019 - 10:29 AM, said:

 

Excellent so now you can play without using had cover at all.

 

Knowing that you have to be completely hidden by it is the important thing. Or are only exposing Russian made bits of your tank.




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