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Medium tank rebalance

medium rebalance

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XxKuzkina_MatxX #41 Posted 23 April 2019 - 11:30 PM

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View PostDorander, on 24 April 2019 - 12:07 AM, said:

I'd rather have AP than APCR, everything else being even. APCR isn't better than AP, it's worse, because it has 2 degrees shell normalization where AP has 5, so AP pens better. It's just that APCR tends to have higher penetration values and higher shell speed. However the standard shell, which was APCR and now will be AP, gets MORE penetration so the former doesn't hold up. It does get some shell velocity reduction, but in trade we get 3 degrees better impact angle which benefits penetration even more.

 

Some numbers to clear things a bit...

 

Penetration: 278/310mm (AP/APCR)

Shell velocity: 1380/1613 m/s (AP/APCR)

 

View PostDorander, on 24 April 2019 - 12:07 AM, said:

I do agree with the sentiment though, I see the buffs and my first reaction isn't "Well that'll make the tank useful now." More alpha is nice, but the reduced load time is meh, 20 increased DPM is giggleworthy, and a 100 hp reduction on an already really vulnerable tank... it seems they insist on making the Leo a camptank, even though they believe they're making it a mobile and accurate fire platform, they seem to forget that their maps aren't suited to that.

 

Dispersion: 0.278 (best tier 10 medium!)

aim time: 1.63 seconds (best tier 10 medium!)

moving: 0.153 (ST)

traverse: 0.153 (ST)

turret traverse: 0.08

 

How is that not a useful tank combined with the alpha buff? 2825 DPM is bad with that alpha?

 

There are a lot of paper mediums/tanks in the game playing on the same maps and i think it's doable, with great results sometimes!


Edited by XxKuzkina_MatxX, 23 April 2019 - 11:36 PM.


Strizi #42 Posted 23 April 2019 - 11:37 PM

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View PostDorander, on 23 April 2019 - 11:07 PM, said:

 

I'd rather have AP than APCR, everything else being even. APCR isn't better than AP, it's worse, because it has 2 degrees shell normalization where AP has 5, so AP pens better. It's just that APCR tends to have higher penetration values and higher shell speed. However the standard shell, which was APCR and now will be AP, gets MORE penetration so the former doesn't hold up. It does get some shell velocity reduction, but in trade we get 3 degrees better impact angle which benefits penetration even more.

 

edit: I forgot AP also has lower pen loss over distance than APCR.

 

I do agree with the sentiment though, I see the buffs and my first reaction isn't "Well that'll make the tank useful now." More alpha is nice, but the reduced load time is meh, 20 increased DPM is giggleworthy, and a 100 hp reduction on an already really vulnerable tank... it seems they insist on making the Leo a camptank, even though they believe they're making it a mobile and accurate fire platform, they seem to forget that their maps aren't suited to that.

 

1. The apcr pen loss of t10 mediums is minimal, its a non issue really

2. If they go through with that ammo change people will give it the amx 50b treatment = full apcr, nobody cares about a little bit normalization so it should be 278 apcr and 330 heat instead, give the heat a good speed and done

3. Heat helps against swedish tds and the upcoming mediums because for reliably sniping their "weakspot" cupolas leopard would need accuracy of 0.1

22:41 Added after 3 minutes

View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 23 April 2019 - 11:30 PM, said:

 

Some numbers to clear things a bit...

 

Penetration: 278/310mm (AP/APCR)

Shell velocity: 1380/1613 m/s (AP/APCR)

 

 

Dispersion: 0.278 (best tier 10 medium!)

aim time: 1.63 seconds (best tier 10 medium!)

moving: 0.153 (ST)

traverse: 0.153 (ST)

turret traverse: 0.08

 

How is that not a useful tank combined with the alpha buff? 2825 DPM is bad with that alpha?

 

There are a lot of paper mediums/tanks in the game playing on the same maps and i think it's doable, with great results sometimes!

 

Dispersion values are still too high and accuracy needs to be better. 0.3 doesnt feel accurate now and 0.29 wont change anything.

XxKuzkina_MatxX #43 Posted 23 April 2019 - 11:44 PM

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View PostStrizi, on 24 April 2019 - 12:37 AM, said:

Dispersion values are still too high and accuracy needs to be better. 0.3 doesnt feel accurate now and 0.29 wont change anything.

 

It isn't 0.3 now and i didn't write 0.29 for the proposed changes. I saw you do very well in battle with far worse accuracy and soft stats btw (Tiger P!) so i think you're just bellyaching. :)

 

As for the dispersion values, too high compared to what? For a sniper tank with good mobility and 420 alpha, i think they're quite acceptable!


Edited by XxKuzkina_MatxX, 23 April 2019 - 11:48 PM.


Strizi #44 Posted 23 April 2019 - 11:52 PM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 23 April 2019 - 11:44 PM, said:

 

It isn't 0.3 now and i didn't write 0.29 for the proposed changes. I saw you do very well in battle with far worse accuracy and soft stats btw (Tiger P!) so i think you're just bellyaching. :)

 

As for the dispersion values, too high compared to what? For a sniper tank with good mobility and 420 alpha, i think they're quite acceptable!

 

What sniper needs to aim for 3 seconds after stopping to shoot a target that got spotted? Give it dispersion values of cars so it can minimize exposuretime. And accuracy is 0.3 atm and thats not enough if you really want to make it an epic sniper. Russian meds got what? 0.33-0.35 so the difference is too small.



XxKuzkina_MatxX #45 Posted 24 April 2019 - 12:00 AM

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View PostStrizi, on 24 April 2019 - 12:52 AM, said:

What sniper needs to aim for 3 seconds after stopping to shoot a target that got spotted? Give it dispersion values of cars so it can minimize exposuretime. And accuracy is 0.3 atm and thats not enough if you really want to make it an epic sniper. Russian meds got what? 0.33-0.35 so the difference is too small.

 

What 3 seconds?

 

Accuracy at the moment is 0.29 according to tanks.gg

 

Russian meds currently have: 0.32 for the K-91, 0.33 for the T-62, 0.34 for the 140 and 0.38 for the 430U. They don't hit for 420 with 278mm of penetration though. Different roles means different stats, don't see a problem with that!

 

To put things into perspective take a look at the brand new UDES 15/16...

 

https://tanks.gg/v10.../tank/udes-1516


Edited by XxKuzkina_MatxX, 24 April 2019 - 12:03 AM.


Dorander #46 Posted 24 April 2019 - 12:13 AM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 23 April 2019 - 10:30 PM, said:

 

Some numbers to clear things a bit...

 

Penetration: 278/310mm (AP/APCR)

Shell velocity: 1380/1613 m/s (AP/APCR)

 

 

Dispersion: 0.278 (best tier 10 medium!)

aim time: 1.63 seconds (best tier 10 medium!)

moving: 0.153 (ST)

traverse: 0.153 (ST)

turret traverse: 0.08

 

How is that not a useful tank combined with the alpha buff? 2825 DPM is bad with that alpha?

 

There are a lot of paper mediums/tanks in the game playing on the same maps and i think it's doable, with great results sometimes!

 

The gun was hardly the problem. The opportunities you have to use it are. There are indeed other paper tanks that do well. They all have some form of autoloader. The Leo has always been a low-threat hp pinata and with these changes it's a slighty-less-low-threat hp pinata.

 

View PostStrizi, on 23 April 2019 - 10:37 PM, said:

 

1. The apcr pen loss of t10 mediums is minimal, its a non issue really

2. If they go through with that ammo change people will give it the amx 50b treatment = full apcr, nobody cares about a little bit normalization so it should be 278 apcr and 330 heat instead, give the heat a good speed and done

3. Heat helps against swedish tds and the upcoming mediums because for reliably sniping their "weakspot" cupolas leopard would need accuracy of 0.1

22:41 Added after 3 minutes

 

Dispersion values are still too high and accuracy needs to be better. 0.3 doesnt feel accurate now and 0.29 wont change anything.

 

Pretty sure the low velocity is a signature characteristic of HEAT shells. HEAT may help against Swedish TDs but APCR helps against all forms of spaced armour, and I don't recall APCR having any drawbacks that HEAT doesn't have barring the ricochet angle which I guess is why you bring it up for cheesewedges. The meds though?

 

And yes the pen of APCR premshells will outperform the AP pen with normalization... so what? Contrary to popular belief does not the entire population fire gold the entire time. The point was standard AP shells with the same values are better than standard APCR shells, it's unrelated to the prammo type change.



XxKuzkina_MatxX #47 Posted 24 April 2019 - 12:27 AM

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View PostDorander, on 24 April 2019 - 01:13 AM, said:

The gun was hardly the problem. The opportunities you have to use it are. There are indeed other paper tanks that do well. They all have some form of autoloader. The Leo has always been a low-threat hp pinata and with these changes it's a slighty-less-low-threat hp pinata.

 

Nope, what makes other paper mediums in every tier viable isn't an autoloader because a lot of them don't have that. What makes them good is the way they're played and how that fit their intended role. What you describes as the "opportunities" to use the gun. Something those new stats will definitely help with and whether they'll be enough or not is relative to other tier 10 mediums stats and performance in battle. If WG overdid this:

 

  1. It'll be in an unstable state and will eventually be nerfed within a patch or two.
  2. Other fans will ask for the same and they're already doing that for the T-62a, the IS-4 and other tanks (Hell no!).

 

View PostDorander, on 24 April 2019 - 01:13 AM, said:

Pretty sure the low velocity is a signature characteristic of HEAT shells. HEAT may help against Swedish TDs but APCR helps against all forms of spaced armour, and I don't recall APCR having any drawbacks that HEAT doesn't have barring the ricochet angle which I guess is why you bring it up for cheesewedges. The meds though?

 

At least not in this case as the HEAT round got an amazing velocity of 1613 m/s.

Strizi #48 Posted 24 April 2019 - 12:28 AM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 24 April 2019 - 12:00 AM, said:

 

What 3 seconds?

 

Accuracy at the moment is 0.29 according to tanks.gg

 

Russian meds currently have: 0.32 for the K-91, 0.33 for the T-62, 0.34 for the 140 and 0.38 for the 430U. They don't hit for 420 with 278mm of penetration though. Different roles means different stats, don't see a problem with that!

 

To put things into perspective take a look at the brand new UDES 15/16...

 

https://tanks.gg/v10.../tank/udes-1516

 

Leopard cant hit crap from the move, you stop, you aim for AGES and they want to change that value from 0.18 to 0.16 which is by far not enough. Base accuracy is 0.3 before crew skills and so on and of course its the most accurate medium but can you reliably hit weakspots with that? no!

Edited by Strizi, 24 April 2019 - 12:29 AM.


XxKuzkina_MatxX #49 Posted 24 April 2019 - 12:40 AM

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View PostStrizi, on 24 April 2019 - 01:28 AM, said:

Leopard cant hit crap from the move, you stop, you aim for AGES and they want to change that value from 0.18 to 0.16 which is by far not enough. Base accuracy is 0.3 before crew skills and so on and of course its the most accurate medium but can you reliably hit weakspots with that? no!

 

It takes too long to aim? yeah, that's why the aim time and the dispersion values were buffed.

 

You don't think these buffs are enough? compare the overall tank stats to the rest of tier 10 mediums.

 

You still think it isn't buffed enough? fine by me!



Dorander #50 Posted 24 April 2019 - 12:47 AM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 23 April 2019 - 11:27 PM, said:

 

Nope, what makes other paper mediums in every tier viable isn't an autoloader because a lot of them don't have that. What makes them good is the way they're played and how that fit their intended role. What you describes as the "opportunities" to use the gun. Something those new stats will definitely help with and whether they'll be enough or not is relative to other tier 10 mediums stats and performance in battle. If WG overdid this:

 

  1. It'll be in an unstable state and will eventually be nerfed within a patch or two.
  2. Other fans will ask for the same and they're already doing that for the T-62a, the IS-4 and other tanks (Hell no!).

 

 

At least not in this case as the HEAT round got an amazing velocity of 1613 m/s.

 

Which other paper mediums are you talking about exactly?

Strizi #51 Posted 24 April 2019 - 12:51 AM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 24 April 2019 - 12:40 AM, said:

 

It takes too long to aim? yeah, that's why the aim time and the dispersion values were buffed.

 

You don't think these buffs are enough? compare the overall tank stats to the rest of tier 10 mediums.

 

You still think it isn't buffed enough? fine by me!

 

No i dont think these buffs are enough. Leopard got the worst winrate of all t10 mediums for a reason. Do you really think this tank is not crap, do we play the same game atm?

XxKuzkina_MatxX #52 Posted 24 April 2019 - 01:17 AM

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View PostDorander, on 24 April 2019 - 01:47 AM, said:

Which other paper mediums are you talking about exactly?

 

Cromwell, comet, leo, Rev or lansen would all be good examples. Mediums without much armor and can be quite effective when played to their strengths. Basically sniping and having good mobility to relocate around the map.

 

View PostStrizi, on 24 April 2019 - 01:51 AM, said:

No i dont think these buffs are enough. Leopard got the worst winrate of all t10 mediums for a reason. Do you really think this tank is not crap, do we play the same game atm?

 

Bad is a relative term, if you think 420 alpha with those soft stats, good accuracy, good DPM, excellent mobility and good gun depression is bad then yes we're playing different games or at least have different opinions on the matter. Personally i think these are acceptable stats for the intended role of the tank.

Edited by XxKuzkina_MatxX, 24 April 2019 - 01:23 AM.


Dorander #53 Posted 24 April 2019 - 02:03 AM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 24 April 2019 - 12:17 AM, said:

 

Cromwell, comet, leo, Rev or lansen would all be good examples. Mediums without much armor and can be quite effective when played to their strengths. Basically sniping and having good mobility to relocate around the map.

 

 

Bad is a relative term, if you think 420 alpha with those soft stats, good accuracy, good DPM, excellent mobility and good gun depression is bad then yes we're playing different games or at least have different opinions on the matter. Personally i think these are acceptable stats for the intended role of the tank.

 

I agree that in low-mid tiers that can be the case, I don't know the Lansen well enough to say much about it, the Rev can do a decent job if it can hold a good firing position and that can get pretty iffy. I don't recall ever having been impressed with a Comet or Leo, truth be told. Cromwell has the speed but now we're already at tier 6 where some tanks are still relatively blind. Tier 10 where the Leo operates, even tier 9, is filled with tanks with maxed out spot values which make life for a sniper (mobile or otherwise) really hard. A Ravioli performs well at tier 8, can be effective against tier 9s if it doesn't have to take them frontally but is laughably ineffective when it sees tier 10, it'll get spotted by wiggling its tailfeathers and be too slow to retreat before it's blown half to bits.

XxKuzkina_MatxX #54 Posted 24 April 2019 - 02:10 AM

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View PostDorander, on 24 April 2019 - 03:03 AM, said:

I agree that in low-mid tiers that can be the case, I don't know the Lansen well enough to say much about it, the Rev can do a decent job if it can hold a good firing position and that can get pretty iffy. I don't recall ever having been impressed with a Comet or Leo, truth be told. Cromwell has the speed but now we're already at tier 6 where some tanks are still relatively blind. Tier 10 where the Leo operates, even tier 9, is filled with tanks with maxed out spot values which make life for a sniper (mobile or otherwise) really hard. A Ravioli performs well at tier 8, can be effective against tier 9s if it doesn't have to take them frontally but is laughably ineffective when it sees tier 10, it'll get spotted by wiggling its tailfeathers and be too slow to retreat before it's blown half to bits.

 

So if i understand correctly you don't like the highlighting of the sniper role for the leopard 1 or you don't think those changes will make it an effective sniper?

Edited by XxKuzkina_MatxX, 24 April 2019 - 02:26 AM.


Strizi #55 Posted 24 April 2019 - 02:32 AM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 24 April 2019 - 01:17 AM, said:

 

Cromwell, comet, leo, Rev or lansen would all be good examples. Mediums without much armor and can be quite effective when played to their strengths. Basically sniping and having good mobility to relocate around the map.

 

 

Bad is a relative term, if you think 420 alpha with those soft stats, good accuracy, good DPM, excellent mobility and good gun depression is bad then yes we're playing different games or at least have different opinions on the matter. Personally i think these are acceptable stats for the intended role of the tank.

 

To make his "intended role" work the accuracy needs to be much better, look up the winrates of t10 meds - it will not be enough to make him good. Better? yes. Good? no.

XxKuzkina_MatxX #56 Posted 24 April 2019 - 02:38 AM

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View PostStrizi, on 24 April 2019 - 03:32 AM, said:

To make his "intended role" work the accuracy needs to be much better, look up the winrates of t10 meds - it will not be enough to make him good. Better? yes. Good? no.

 

Looking up winrates before the tank is even buffed wouldn't be very useful now would it???

 

By the way, this "intended" role is not exactly my idea. It's what WG developers think the Leopard is and should be. They designed some things called tier 10 mediums and chose the leopard 1 to be the ultimate sniper medium. Not the ultimate brawler, not an okay brawler and not the ultimate TD. Turns out it sucked at that, due to maps, other tanks it meets or any other number of factors. So these proposed changes are supposed to make it better at that.

 

Trying to change the tank role, giving it something extra spicy or reworking the accuracy system in WOT are out of scope i think!


Edited by XxKuzkina_MatxX, 24 April 2019 - 02:49 AM.


Strizi #57 Posted 24 April 2019 - 02:59 AM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 24 April 2019 - 02:38 AM, said:

 

Looking up winrates before the tank is even buffed wouldn't be very useful now would it???

 

By the way, this "intended" role is not exactly my idea. It's what WG developers think the Leopard is and should be. They designed some things called tier 10 mediums and chose the leopard 1 to be the ultimate sniper medium. Not the ultimate brawler, not an okay brawler and not the ultimate TD. Turns out it sucked at that, due to maps, other tanks it meets or any other number of factors. So these proposed changes are supposed to make it better at that.

 

Trying to change the tank role, giving it something extra spicy or reworking the accuracy system in WOT are out of scope i think!

 

And they are probably tweaking the wrong things for that. They could achieve that with just changing 2 parameters: Dispersion values to 0.05 and accuracy to 0.2 base and now you got the most epic sniper in the game.

XxKuzkina_MatxX #58 Posted 24 April 2019 - 03:04 AM

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View PostStrizi, on 24 April 2019 - 03:59 AM, said:

And they are probably tweaking the wrong things for that. They could achieve that with just changing 2 parameters: Dispersion values to 0.05 and accuracy to 0.2 base and now you got the most epic sniper in the game.

 

And we are back at post #52 again, i disagree with your approach and find the proposed stats by WG acceptable. After all it isn't a TD!

Edited by XxKuzkina_MatxX, 24 April 2019 - 03:06 AM.


Strizi #59 Posted 24 April 2019 - 03:30 AM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 24 April 2019 - 03:04 AM, said:

 

And we are back at post #52 again, i disagree with your approach and find the proposed stats by WG acceptable. After all it isn't a TD!

 



XxKuzkina_MatxX #60 Posted 24 April 2019 - 03:38 AM

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View PostStrizi, on 24 April 2019 - 04:30 AM, said:

[selfie]

 

Always a pleasure, come back soon!

Edited by XxKuzkina_MatxX, 24 April 2019 - 03:39 AM.






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