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Medium tank rebalance

medium rebalance

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Strizi #61 Posted 24 April 2019 - 04:18 AM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 24 April 2019 - 03:38 AM, said:

 

Always a pleasure, come back soon!

 

Bildergebnis für i see what you did there

Baldrickk #62 Posted 24 April 2019 - 05:03 AM

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View PostDorander, on 23 April 2019 - 11:07 PM, said:

 

I'd rather have AP than APCR, everything else being even. APCR isn't better than AP, it's worse, because it has 2 degrees shell normalization where AP has 5, so AP pens better. It's just that APCR tends to have higher penetration values and higher shell speed. However the standard shell, which was APCR and now will be AP, gets MORE penetration so the former doesn't hold up. It does get some shell velocity reduction, but in trade we get 3 degrees better impact angle which benefits penetration even more.

 

edit: I forgot AP also has lower pen loss over distance than APCR.

 

I do agree with the sentiment though, I see the buffs and my first reaction isn't "Well that'll make the tank useful now." More alpha is nice, but the reduced load time is meh, 20 increased DPM is giggleworthy, and a 100 hp reduction on an already really vulnerable tank... it seems they insist on making the Leo a camptank, even though they believe they're making it a mobile and accurate fire platform, they seem to forget that their maps aren't suited to that.

APCR-as-standard doesn't suffer from the increased pen loss, just reduced normalisation, as per Q&A around about the time Pearl River was released. 

I haven't heard more on the subject since. 



Strizi #63 Posted 24 April 2019 - 05:52 AM

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As i said earlier in this thread i do not think the buffs for Leopard 1 are enough and they do not adress the biggest problem enough which is dispersion so what do you guys think about this:

 


Edited by Strizi, 24 April 2019 - 05:53 AM.


Mimos_A #64 Posted 24 April 2019 - 06:17 AM

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Those Stb-1 "buffs"...

 

360 alpha, 232 pen, 3.7 accuracy... On a tier 10...

 

Glad the 430 and 430u get a nerf, though I think especially the 430u needs is armour looked at as well.



Thornvalley #65 Posted 24 April 2019 - 07:38 AM

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There are not enough maps for sniping, where Leo can be useful. Todays TX meta is dominated by armour and high alpha guns. Go figure why the best performing meds are the 907 and 430U.

 

STB changes look like nerfs to me.



Saif #66 Posted 24 April 2019 - 07:42 AM

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121 buff nothing? come on its the worst T10 medium tank...

DutchBaron_ #67 Posted 24 April 2019 - 09:24 AM

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View PostStrizi, on 24 April 2019 - 05:52 AM, said:

As i said earlier in this thread i do not think the buffs for Leopard 1 are enough and they do not adress the biggest problem enough which is dispersion

Or the fact that you are driving a box of modules surrounded in ammo racks with not impressive cammo and a big profile...



tajj7 #68 Posted 24 April 2019 - 09:32 AM

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View PostStrizi, on 24 April 2019 - 04:52 AM, said:

As i said earlier in this thread i do not think the buffs for Leopard 1 are enough and they do not adress the biggest problem enough which is dispersion so what do you guys think about this:

 

 

A sniper role tank with the best dispersion in the game doesn't really make sense. You want good dispersions for tanks that are supposed to shoot on the move a lot, so wheeled vehicles, lights, brawlers basically.  Snipers need (IMO) accuracy, fast aim times, high pen, high shell velocity and alpha/burst damage.  So you are getting that with these changes, in terms of moving to a spot, stopping, seeing a target at long range, hitting it, and penning it, with a decent alpha punch, this Leo 1 is going to be the best out of the mediums for it by a clear margin, which it isn't now. 

 

I think the slightly reduced dispersion is probably enough when coupled with the increased aim time. Not to mention as well the whole gun package has basically improved. 

 

The loss of the shell velocity for an APCR round is minimal, no one will notice that and considering you gain penetration and normalisation, that new AP round, would be like effectively giving the tank 290 APCR. It's a very strong round when you account for all the characteristics. Highest penetration of any med or heavy, almost as high or higher than several tier 9 and 10 TDs, whilst having much better dispersions. 

 

Plus you have the added alpha as well, which means it can trade better in unfavourable brawling situations. So whilst the changes are more designed for a sniper role, it does actually make the tank better in unfavoured roles, if you know how to brawl in paper tanks, if you get Paris or Ruinberg or whatever and you have to get your flank moving, having 420 alpha, not 390 and 278 AP pen not 268 APCR is quite a big advantage, as is the faster aim time and dispersions. 

 

So overall the tank is definitely going to be better, its going to be the best sniper medium at tier 10 by a clear margin (whereas now its just the best sniper by a little bit which doesn't compensate for its badness in other areas). Plus in unfavourable situations, it's going to be a little more effective as well. 

 

I'd agree though as well that the tank doesn't need those other nerfs, the HP, reverse speed, the hp/ton and traverse changes are just not needed IMO.

 

Plus I'd agree you could also push the accuracy more to like 0.24/0.25. 

 

You have to remember as well that your suggested changes would make tanks like the K-91, Cent AX etc. pretty much useless in comparison. 

 

View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 23 April 2019 - 05:02 PM, said:

View Posttajj7, on 23 April 2019 - 06:52 PM, said:

They have changed that 500m thing because that wasn't there initially and its still an unnecessary nerf.

 

Plus the article mentions nothing about a turret armour buff. 

 

So even with those things, its still overall a nerf IMO. 

 

The RU article is badly written too so i guess the translation didn't help. All i am saying is to be patient as those half*** changes mentioned are still missing a lot. When the tank is closer to its final form with any armor buffs or the 'magical' suspension, you can rate it better. Right now it's a piece of a puzzle meant to condition feedback!
 

 

Yeh fair enough, we'll have to see how good the turret armour is and how effective the suspension is.  Those will make or break the tank, but again I feel like the tank didn't need so much of its other stats nerfed down when its currently not a very good tank. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



hoveruss #69 Posted 24 April 2019 - 09:33 AM

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Went straight to the video thinking "CDC! CDC!"

 

Guess what.



hasnainrakha57 #70 Posted 24 April 2019 - 09:36 AM

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Well stb-1 changed to old amx30b and amx30b changed to better stb1.

Edited by hasnainrakha57, 24 April 2019 - 09:36 AM.


Slyspy #71 Posted 24 April 2019 - 09:44 AM

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View Posthoveruss, on 24 April 2019 - 09:33 AM, said:

Went straight to the video thinking "CDC! CDC!"

 

Guess what.

 

Yeah. They seem to want to buff the Japanese and German "feeder" premiums but not the French one for some reason.

AXIS_OF_RESISTANCE #72 Posted 24 April 2019 - 09:49 AM

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The rebalances  are utterly moronic , i played 430 and 430u 

--430 armor is ridicules for it's tier hull and lower plate  is basically impenetrably for sub 210 pen ,turret has huge overmatch with copula but good luck hitting them ,side armor is also stupidly strong instead of nerfing the hull armor which is the problematic issue ,instead they go for the gun which is already horrible ,yeah i know it has amazing soft stats but when it comes to leading shots or hitting complicated shot it fails miserably

--430u is  so op even another 430u can't handle it ,why? 

because the armor is insane ,the gun is the same as t9 430 struggles when is come to hitting those important complicated shots or straight up derp the easiest shots .

what they do ? they nerf the gun !!!!! like what is this logic ,my god it is impressive how stupid these people are .


Edited by AXIS_OF_RESISTANCE, 24 April 2019 - 09:53 AM.


ValkyrionX #73 Posted 24 April 2019 - 09:56 AM

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I don't understand in any way because they basically want to make STB1 useless


the changes to the other tanks seem to me adequate, but those of the STB1 are really senseless

 

 



Zoltan1251 #74 Posted 24 April 2019 - 09:57 AM

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View PostAXIS_OF_RESISTANCE, on 24 April 2019 - 09:49 AM, said:

The rebalances  are utterly dumb , i played 430 and 430u 

--430 armor is ridicules for it's tier hull and lower plate  is basically impenetrably for sub 210 pen ,turret has huge overmatch with copula but good luck hitting them ,side armor is also stupidly strong instead of nerfing the hull armor which is the problematic issue ,instead they go for the gun which is already horrible ,yeah i know it has amazing soft stats but when it comes to leading shots or hitting complicated shot it fails miserably

--430u is  so op even another 430u can't handle it ,why? 

because the armor is insane ,the gun is the same as t9 430 struggles when is come to hitting those important complicated shots or straight up derp the easiest shots .

what they do ? they nerf the gun !!!!! like what is this logic ,my god it is impressive how stupid these people are .

 

ever occured to you that they actually want it to have special role on the battlefield?... heavy medium with good armor, bad gun and big alpha, while chinese have heavy medium with bad armor, good gun and big alpha.... now there is reason to play chinese...

View PostStrizi, on 24 April 2019 - 05:52 AM, said:

As i said earlier in this thread i do not think the buffs for Leopard 1 are enough and they do not adress the biggest problem enough which is dispersion so what do you guys think about this:

 

 

yeah, your "balancing" make absolutely no sense in regard of its role on battlefield, just straight up buff of your imagination.... low dispersion on the move is for lights....
08:59 Added after 1 minute

View PostValkyrionX, on 24 April 2019 - 09:56 AM, said:

I don't understand in any way because they basically want to make STB1 useless


the changes to the other tanks seem to me adequate, but those of the STB1 are really senseless

 

 

 

it will get a buff after supertest... dont jump into conclusion yet...

pecopad #75 Posted 24 April 2019 - 10:25 AM

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View PostDutchBaron_, on 24 April 2019 - 09:24 AM, said:

Or the fact that you are driving a box of modules surrounded in ammo racks with not impressive cammo and a big profile...

 

Nobody makes you guys play or grind a tank.You have plenty of tanks to choose from.

 

Don't like the changes,specially because it makes no sense to buff the Leo gun and leave all other L7's the same. 



Dorander #76 Posted 24 April 2019 - 10:42 AM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 24 April 2019 - 01:10 AM, said:

 

So if i understand correctly you don't like the highlighting of the sniper role for the leopard 1 or you don't think those changes will make it an effective sniper?

 

I think it'll make it an effective sniper, more effective than what it is now. I simply don't think a sniper tank in this game is ever going to be good because at tier 10 you need a map where you can fire from beyond 445m or you get spotted, and a spotted leopard is a good looking dead leopard.

 

This is highlighted by the nerfs they make which they claim don't affect its combat role but they reduce its reverse speed and its power to weight ratio which affects its acceleration. This means it takes it longer to pull back, longer to relocate to safe positions which affects its ability to withdraw, and that boost to top speed takes longer to achieve. I will admit my frame of reference here might be off a little 'cause I don't recall accurately how good the mobility of the Leopard is now and I've been driving the E50 which accelerates like a brick, but I don't understand the nerf in stats a Leopard depends on to survive for the sake of a gun which was hardly the problem.

 

View PostBaldrickk, on 24 April 2019 - 04:03 AM, said:

APCR-as-standard doesn't suffer from the increased pen loss, just reduced normalisation, as per Q&A around about the time Pearl River was released. 

I haven't heard more on the subject since. 

 

Thanks, learn something new (or old) every day.



Dr_Oolen #77 Posted 24 April 2019 - 10:47 AM

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Regarding the leopard changes... while im satisfied that more or less wg went down the path that i wanted for years,i think overall the buffs are too small (or lets say - the buffs get too counterbalanced by the nerfs) and i think wg should have gone much farther with the changes...

 

Either they shouldnt have nerfed anything and kept all the buffs. In which case sure the tank would be better at its supposed role (0.29 base acc is good enough for shooting weakspots reliably at maybe 300 meters... if they want this tank to snipe from 400+ meters it would neeb at worst like 0.24), but still not really that much better at it than other tanks. Or they should have gone way more full retard with some of the buffs if they were to go with the nerfs... like giving it 0.24 accuracy, 1.5 aimtime and even faster shells...

 

EDIT: its simply just a disappointment... that some tanks are crapfor ages and then WG buffs them in a way that would make the tanks "ok/good" at the time they were last changed/added into game, but still too crapand uncompetitive in the current game. So at best WG are basically removing the 3 years of powercreep with these buffs, but all these tanks were crapeven before the powercreep...


Edited by Dr_Oolen, 24 April 2019 - 10:50 AM.


facmanpob #78 Posted 24 April 2019 - 10:47 AM

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View PostMimos_A, on 24 April 2019 - 05:17 AM, said:

Those Stb-1 "buffs"...

 

360 alpha, 232 pen, 3.7 accuracy... On a tier 10...

 

Glad the 430 and 430u get a nerf, though I think especially the 430u needs is armour looked at as well.

 

The 232 pen is at 500m, not the usually stated distance of 100m.

XxKuzkina_MatxX #79 Posted 24 April 2019 - 11:06 AM

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View PostDorander, on 24 April 2019 - 11:42 AM, said:

I think it'll make it an effective sniper, more effective than what it is now. I simply don't think a sniper tank in this game is ever going to be good because at tier 10 you need a map where you can fire from beyond 445m or you get spotted, and a spotted leopard is a good looking dead leopard.

 

Yet we have the Skorpion G, a tier 8 tank with similar afflictions. In the entire 2 years of crap MM with 90% of the battles being in tier 10, it was the most played tank in the EU cluster. Yes there are other factors to this like credits income but it was not just the most played premium, it was the most played tank.

 

Sniper mediums work, not as good on every map but they definitely can be useful if you control the urge to get closer! :)

 

View PostDorander, on 24 April 2019 - 11:42 AM, said:

This is highlighted by the nerfs they make which they claim don't affect its combat role but they reduce its reverse speed and its power to weight ratio which affects its acceleration. This means it takes it longer to pull back, longer to relocate to safe positions which affects its ability to withdraw, and that boost to top speed takes longer to achieve. I will admit my frame of reference here might be off a little 'cause I don't recall accurately how good the mobility of the Leopard is now and I've been driving the E50 which accelerates like a brick, but I don't understand the nerf in stats a Leopard depends on to survive for the sake of a gun which was hardly the problem.

 

The mobility nerfs are the traverse speed (by 6° ) and the reverse speed (by 3 km/h). Not really that significant and there is no nerf to the specific power or the engine power. Turret traverse is also buffed to 41.7°/s from 37.5°/s, some gimmicky crap that means next to nothing in battle! :)


Edited by XxKuzkina_MatxX, 24 April 2019 - 11:09 AM.


tajj7 #80 Posted 24 April 2019 - 11:14 AM

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Engine power nerf is mentioned in the article.

 

I think you could just ditch the reverse speed, hit points, traverse speed nerfs, they are unnecessary. Hopefully they will go through the super test process or they stretch the buffs a little further (like more accuracy buffs, aim time buffs etc.) 

 

Like I said though, whilst the changes are designed to make it a better mobile sniper, it will actually be better (if you know what you are doing) in roles it is unsuited for.

 

  • 420 alpha means you can trade a bit better.
  • The pen buff means you have to aim less carefully/will be less trolled by RNG.
  • The aim time and movement/hull dispersion buffs means you can snap more often.

 

The 3 in combo means in city trade or peeking fights the tank is going to be a little better, even if not great. So clearly a better mobile sniper and a little better in most other roles as well. 

 

Just remove those nerfs, make the accuracy and aim time a little better and for me it would probably be perfect. 







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