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The Bushes That Offer No Cover - Why?


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TungstenHitman #1 Posted 01 May 2019 - 03:22 PM

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Is this a mistake by WG devs or are there purposefully supposed to be some bushes that just fail at offering any amount of cover? I find it hard to believe that it's on purpose and WG have a video about spotting mechanics, detection zones on our tanks and how to use a bush for cover and how to double bush to shoot and stay undetected etc and yet... you play some locations with apparently good bush covering, double bush and you get spotted. Now, no doubt some of these instances can be put down to some unseen enemy tank spotting a few pixels of one of your tanks detection zones and not just the only visible enemy tank you are double bushing from but there seems to be a lot of fail bushes about these maps that just straight up don't work or only partially work, with maybe some gaps or holes between hit boxes or God knows where. Personally, I think they all should work. I'm not going to split hairs(no bush joke intended) about there being too much bush cover on certain maps or certain areas or any of that, I would just love for them to either reliably work as intended or lose them completely if they're not suppose to offer any cover, because it's hard to know without having all the facts at hand as to why you got spotted. That way, at least I/all players can know for certain that they are being spotted by someone and not just a case of some bush that doesn't work or has some mistake gaps in it that it wasn't ever suppose to have.

 

What do you guys think? Am I being a bit dramatic and this isn't that common or it isn't that bad an issue? For me I think it's a bit annoying and often dismissed because we can tend to forget as we are fighting for our lives WHY we are fighting for our lives which is the bush failed us. 


Edited by TungstenHitman, 01 May 2019 - 03:32 PM.


Homer_J #2 Posted 01 May 2019 - 04:08 PM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 01 May 2019 - 03:22 PM, said:

 

What do you guys think?

 

I think it needs some proper testing in controlled conditions in a training room to tell if it's a genuine problem or something else (spotted from elsewhere, bush not as big as you thought it was, Maus bigger than you thought it was....)

breeeze #3 Posted 01 May 2019 - 04:18 PM

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bushes have always been inconsistent, but each one has to be tested individually to confirm. could also be strange hitboxes.

Dorander #4 Posted 01 May 2019 - 04:22 PM

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I only ever have this problem in one location, the north-mid hill on Malinovka, where I suddenly find myself spotted and shot. This nearly always turns out to be a light tank that managed to get up the ramp from the water and spotting me from the east, and remaining undetected because there's a bush at the top that they manage to wriggle towards, rather than the double-bushing failing.

NekoPuffer_PPP #5 Posted 01 May 2019 - 04:30 PM

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The biggest issue I have with bushes is the difference in camo value they provide, because I can almost never tell the difference between light, medium or dense bushes (10, 25, 50% camo respectively).

 

I mean, the difference between light and medium bushes is clear most of the time, but the difference between medium and dense bushes is much harder to notice, and can be the deciding factor towards a grand victory or a grand fireball.

 

Also, how do trees fit into this template? Does the same apply? Are pine trees the densest?



7thSyndicate #6 Posted 02 May 2019 - 02:48 AM

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because its wargaming, fake bushes make the game more realistic and fun to play

HanZi #7 Posted 02 May 2019 - 05:56 AM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 01 May 2019 - 03:22 PM, said:

Is this a mistake by WG devs or are there purposefully supposed to be some bushes that just fail at offering any amount of cover? I find it hard to believe that it's on purpose and WG have a video about spotting mechanics, detection zones on our tanks and how to use a bush for cover and how to double bush to shoot and stay undetected etc and yet... you play some locations with apparently good bush covering, double bush and you get spotted. Now, no doubt some of these instances can be put down to some unseen enemy tank spotting a few pixels of one of your tanks detection zones and not just the only visible enemy tank you are double bushing from but there seems to be a lot of fail bushes about these maps that just straight up don't work or only partially work, with maybe some gaps or holes between hit boxes or God knows where. Personally, I think they all should work. I'm not going to split hairs(no bush joke intended) about there being too much bush cover on certain maps or certain areas or any of that, I would just love for them to either reliably work as intended or lose them completely if they're not suppose to offer any cover, because it's hard to know without having all the facts at hand as to why you got spotted. That way, at least I/all players can know for certain that they are being spotted by someone and not just a case of some bush that doesn't work or has some mistake gaps in it that it wasn't ever suppose to have.

 

What do you guys think? Am I being a bit dramatic and this isn't that common or it isn't that bad an issue? For me I think it's a bit annoying and often dismissed because we can tend to forget as we are fighting for our lives WHY we are fighting for our lives which is the bush failed us. 

 

I totally agree to, that going into cover i alway turn the view to see if me tank is covered by bush or tree. But as you discribe, i had many times found myself detected and shot at without warning. Even when multible bushes are between me and the opponent and i fire, he sees me. here i also suspect MODs in play, but difficult to prove with a game from WG, coz its NOT where they put much of their time to make it better, just new tanks and other money earning stuff.

That is why its a bad www game with poor and slow servers, with many "what happend"??? ingame.



HassenderZerhacker #8 Posted 02 May 2019 - 07:12 AM

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View PostHanZi, on 02 May 2019 - 05:56 AM, said:

 

I totally agree to, that going into cover i alway turn the view to see if me tank is covered by bush or tree. But as you discribe, i had many times found myself detected and shot at without warning. Even when multible bushes are between me and the opponent and i fire, he sees me. here i also suspect MODs in play, but difficult to prove with a game from WG, coz its NOT where they put much of their time to make it better, just new tanks and other money earning stuff.

That is why its a bad www game with poor and slow servers, with many "what happend"??? ingame.

 

mods won't spot you.



8126Jakobsson #9 Posted 02 May 2019 - 07:28 AM

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Some bushes don't work at all and some twigs can offer the best of camo. I can somewhat appreciate that experienced players with extra knowledge of all this due to extensive trial and error are "rewarded" for their efforts, but it's pretty damn dumb.

SuperOlsson #10 Posted 02 May 2019 - 07:31 AM

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View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 02 May 2019 - 07:12 AM, said:

 

mods won't spot you.

 

My aimbot will spot you! Even outside spotting range, my aimbot also removes all server-side dispersion giving me laser aim precision. Oh, almost forgot, it also guarantees module damage, such as ammoracking and setting on fire!

 

You should try it!



Cobra6 #11 Posted 02 May 2019 - 09:30 AM

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There are many bushes since update 1.0 that don't provide proper cover anymore or no cover at all. And since it's still not fixed we can safely assume most of these are deliberate.

 

Coincidentally most of these bushes are in critical map locations as well.

 

Cobra 6



TungstenHitman #12 Posted 02 May 2019 - 11:28 AM

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View PostCobra6, on 02 May 2019 - 08:30 AM, said:

There are many bushes since update 1.0 that don't provide proper cover anymore or no cover at all. And since it's still not fixed we can safely assume most of these are deliberate.

 

Coincidentally most of these bushes are in critical map locations as well.

 

Cobra 6

 

But is there any hint at them being intentional inclusions and what purpose do they serve other than to troll? I mean, if they added these "bushes that aren't bushes" to he game on purpose, was there ever any actual hint from WG in a post or vid of theirs that this was a thing and why? I didn't see any but I don't follow every little tweak and change closely so maybe there is a post from WG about some new bush alteration, if not, why do they keep the spotting mechanics vid featured as though that's some sort of WoT strategy bible that every bush adheres to and should. I don't know, that whole "it was intentional" sort of smacks of a classic lazy directors answer for when questioned about clear movie plot holes or "wt*" moments when something impossible happens during their sword and sorcery movie and they just answer "They used magic" to gloss over it even though you know that's total bull lol.  

8126Jakobsson #13 Posted 02 May 2019 - 11:36 AM

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Take Fishermans Bay.

That bush in the middle of 1 line seems like a good place to spot. You know the one by the tower thingy. Nope. Fake. You just got deleted by a bunch of TD's that you had hopes of lighting up.

But hey maybe one of them did as you died. You may even have gotten a shot or two worth of assist out of it. Worth.

Now let's work the middle of the map instead and see if we can find some town shots.

lol you just got spotted through two lines of bushes. Get rekt, son. 

 



Cobra6 #14 Posted 02 May 2019 - 11:40 AM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 02 May 2019 - 10:28 AM, said:

 

But is there any hint at them being intentional inclusions and what purpose do they serve other than to troll? I mean, if they added these "bushes that aren't bushes" to he game on purpose, was there ever any actual hint from WG in a post or vid of theirs that this was a thing and why? I didn't see any but I don't follow every little tweak and change closely so maybe there is a post from WG about some new bush alteration, if not, why do they keep the spotting mechanics vid featured as though that's some sort of WoT strategy bible that every bush adheres to and should. I don't know, that whole "it was intentional" sort of smacks of a classic lazy directors answer for when questioned about clear movie plot holes or "wt*" moments when something impossible happens during their sword and sorcery movie and they just answer "They used magic" to gloss over it even though you know that's total bull lol.  

 

Because especially those bushes in key map locations could be exploited by knowledgeable players to great effect, hence why they nowadays get a lower camo value.

 

Basically different types of bushes have different camo values even if they look the same. You'll really start noticing this when you play light tanks very frequently and bushes that had great camo pre-1.0 now are very hit and miss or don't work at all.

Some bushes provide full camo when you shoot through them from 15-20m away, some provide no camo even when you do. Some bushes used to provide full camo when shooting through and now don't anymore.

 

Cobra 6


Edited by Cobra6, 02 May 2019 - 11:43 AM.


TungstenHitman #15 Posted 02 May 2019 - 11:48 AM

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View Post8126Jakobsson, on 02 May 2019 - 10:36 AM, said:

Take Fishermans Bay.

That bush in the middle of 1 line seems like a good place to spot. You know the one by the tower thingy. Nope. Fake. You just got deleted by a bunch of TD's that you had hopes of lighting up.

But hey maybe one of them did as you died. You may even have gotten a shot or two worth of assist out of it. Worth.

Now let's work the middle of the map instead and see if we can find some town shots.

lol you just got spotted through two lines of bushes. Get rekt, son. 

 

 

Actually that whole maps a hotbed for fake bushes. Even further back, northside, the bush next to the house, during an enemy push, you'll peak that bush, 6th sense goes off and you eat a shot, could ONLY have been seen by a tank directly ahead in that channel, usually the tank that made it's way up to the bolder with the bushes either side of it, how? There is no gap? Yet the bush doesn't work.

 

Same in the middle of the map where tanks on both side make there way up the hill to that former classic "farm the heavies" location where you would drive up, lots of bushes between the gaps of those last 2 sets of buildings yet either I keep spotting enemy tanks I really shouldn't since there's not 1 but 2 sets of bushes between me and them or else I am getting spotted and they are not... and again it can only be use spotting each other every other angle has solid cover... why??? lol 



TungstenHitman #16 Posted 02 May 2019 - 12:01 PM

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View PostCobra6, on 02 May 2019 - 10:40 AM, said:

 

Because especially those bushes in key map locations could be exploited by knowledgeable players to great effect, hence why they nowadays get a lower camo value.

 

Basically different types of bushes have different camo values even if they look the same. You'll really start noticing this when you play light tanks very frequently and bushes that had great camo pre-1.0 now are very hit and miss or don't work at all.

Some bushes provide full camo when you shoot through them from 15-20m away, some provide no camo even when you do. Some bushes used to provide full camo when shooting through and now don't anymore.

 

Cobra 6

 

I'm back playing light tanks a lot lately so I'm totally encountering these "what??" bushes a lot lol. Is there some color chart or type or something? I'm not really noticing any difference. Some are so lush and thick a 1970 P star would be proud and yet I get spotted, like that hill on prok where you want to look down the other side and see all the noob heavies coming, some work, some don't, but which ones? there's no difference and the consequences are devastating in such an exposed position. Then I was on Malinovka and I drove up behind a twig with a big fat Pantera with it's detection zones surely on view yet I wasn't spotted and I was like how the HELL am I not spotted yet?

 

Spoiler

 

Other occasions I would be in a spotting location, and in the clear open with no cover at all, a big giant heavy tank like a Maus suddenly appears, how the hell was he not spotted before that?? lol.... I to mention those moments too. There has been plenty of occasions where I would have spotted a zero camo heavy tank with my 500+ view range light tank as he approaches a fair distance away, in the open, I'd pull back to cover as the team would farm him so I don't get blind shot by sitting in that pretty obvious bush, then when I peak again, nothing... so I move forwards thinking he has gone somewhere obvious like behind the only house or down the only ridge etc and then suddenly he is right in front of me... and that's not something I would really have wanted to happen tbh lol. and I'd question how his detection zones could possibly have been undetected by spotting zones on my light tank... baffling at times but I'll keep to the topic right now.  



Dorander #17 Posted 02 May 2019 - 06:11 PM

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View PostHanZi, on 02 May 2019 - 04:56 AM, said:

 

I totally agree to, that going into cover i alway turn the view to see if me tank is covered by bush or tree. But as you discribe, i had many times found myself detected and shot at without warning. Even when multible bushes are between me and the opponent and i fire, he sees me. here i also suspect MODs in play, but difficult to prove with a game from WG, coz its NOT where they put much of their time to make it better, just new tanks and other money earning stuff.

That is why its a bad www game with poor and slow servers, with many "what happend"??? ingame.

 

 

Spotting is done entirely server-side, there are illegal mods that mark a position of knocked over or broken objects, but if all you did is sit there and fire that wasn't it. When you fire, the game negates all bush bonuses with in 15m of your tank, so depending on where those multiple bushes are, that may very well be why you are spotted. Keep in mind that if you are behind a bush and your opponent is behind a bush and you fire, your bush is negated, he sees through his bush because he's behind it, so those 2 bushes are now 0 bushes.

 

Beyond that bushes provide a camouflage bonus, they don't hide you like hard cover, so if your base camouflage is low when firing and people have sufficient spot range, they will see you when you fire even if there's still a decent bush in between.






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