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Maus and Panzer 7 nearly arty immune...

Super heavies arty spall liner

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Rati_Festa #1 Posted 03 May 2019 - 10:00 AM

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I noticed since the update my Maus and Panzer 7 with spall liners installed appear to be nearly immune to arty damage. Which at first appears great for me... but then I realised that once this becomes common knowledge ( ironically me posting about it problem won't help that  :) ) that arty players will stop focusing big lumbering targets and aim at more vulnerable enemies.

 

Isn't arty in the game to assist with dealing with super heavies/high armour TDs? and this poses the question how are the changes making the game better? Changing for changing sake isn't a good development plan for any project.

 

Am I right in thinking that when arty "bounces" off me it doesn't count to my shell bounce?



Japualtah #2 Posted 03 May 2019 - 10:02 AM

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Dp you mean playing a heavy on Prokorovka could provide better than a 'shoot me!' experience?

Going to try it asap :)



The_Naa #3 Posted 03 May 2019 - 10:03 AM

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I really do hope players start using the spalliner instead of asking for more nerfs to Arty and HE. :P

WoT_RU_Doing #4 Posted 03 May 2019 - 10:31 AM

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View PostRati_Festa, on 03 May 2019 - 09:00 AM, said:

I noticed since the update my Maus and Panzer 7 with spall liners installed appear to be nearly immune to arty damage. Which at first appears great for me... but then I realised that once this becomes common knowledge ( ironically me posting about it problem won't help that  :) ) that arty players will stop focusing big lumbering targets and aim at more vulnerable enemies.

 

Isn't arty in the game to assist with dealing with super heavies/high armour TDs? and this poses the question how are the changes making the game better? Changing for changing sake isn't a good development plan for any project.

 

Am I right in thinking that when arty "bounces" off me it doesn't count to my shell bounce?

 

I'm not sure that much has actually changed in that arty often did 0 dmg to a Maus before the update. However, specifically answering your last question, no, ineffective HE's don't get counted in bounce missions.

FrantisekBascovansky #5 Posted 03 May 2019 - 10:35 AM

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High tier arty became even more useless after 1.5 update so it will collect dust in my garage for now. There's no point to play it (other than campaign missions). It was pain to grind/play before 1.5 already, btw.

Other classes will have to deal with heavily armored enemy HTs and TDs in high tiers by themselves.

If I will play or grind SPG lines, I'll stick to mid tiers, where there's still some hint of balance and enjoyment, at the moment.



Rati_Festa #6 Posted 03 May 2019 - 10:38 AM

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View PostWoT_RU_Doing, on 03 May 2019 - 10:31 AM, said:

 

I'm not sure that much has actually changed in that arty often did 0 dmg to a Maus before the update. However, specifically answering your last question, no, ineffective HE's don't get counted in bounce missions.

 

You may well be right and it isn't update relevant. I don't often play SH's due to the type 5 nukes so gave them a run out last night. Had some amusing battles with players still firing thier "puny" :) type 5 cannons at me doing 200 dmg and they receive 600 back in return, karma and great fun :) 

pecopad #7 Posted 03 May 2019 - 10:42 AM

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They always were, Maus weakest armor (50 mm) is higher than the Bat Chat and Obj 261 or GW in a low roll pen. Type 5 weakest part is 75 mm while the highest pen in arty is 60 mm from the T92.

 

That's why arty does not shoot super heavies.


Edited by pecopad, 03 May 2019 - 10:44 AM.


Miepie #8 Posted 03 May 2019 - 11:12 AM

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This is obviously an unintended bug that must be corrected by giving 250 mm of penetration to arty HE shells! :justwait:

Schepel #9 Posted 03 May 2019 - 11:35 AM

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The MAUS is far from invulnerable, but there is a bit of a learn to play issue here. (For arty players, not Rati.) If you go and hit a MAUS head on, it won't do THAT much. It will still stun and thereby hinder and delay. In a direct fight, stuns make the difference. Only a bad arty player would not go for the super heavy if stunning it would mean a lot of assist damage because of it. However, if you get the side, either through a direct hit or through splashing, spall liner or no, you will do significant damage. I have tested this both on the receiving end (MAUS, Type 5) and the arty end (Conq). Incidentally, I am NOT impressed by the spall liner's effect.

 

Ceterum censeo, there is a bit more skill to playing arty than generally stated. Anybody can click at any available target, but target selection (positioning) and the knowledge of how to hit to get the maximum effect requires insight and map awareness. Neither of which the average potato posesses, and forget about the usual red arty occupant. When it comes to carrying in arty, it really takes skill to make that happen. Before you lot go and have a flame party: go and try to get a 60% solo w/r in arty. See if that doesn't take some work. Then come back. :-) 


Edited by Schepel, 03 May 2019 - 11:36 AM.


Cobra6 #10 Posted 03 May 2019 - 11:45 AM

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View PostRati_Festa, on 03 May 2019 - 09:00 AM, said:

I noticed since the update my Maus and Panzer 7 with spall liners installed appear to be nearly immune to arty damage. Which at first appears great for me... but then I realised that once this becomes common knowledge ( ironically me posting about it problem won't help that  :) ) that arty players will stop focusing big lumbering targets and aim at more vulnerable enemies.

 

Isn't arty in the game to assist with dealing with super heavies/high armour TDs? and this poses the question how are the changes making the game better? Changing for changing sake isn't a good development plan for any project.

 

Am I right in thinking that when arty "bounces" off me it doesn't count to my shell bounce?

 

Indeed as you point out this change to (yet again!!) appease heavy tank drivers will negatively impact all other classes in this game.

 

More arty chasing light tanks around the map instead of focussing on heavy armour like they should.

 

Dumb short-sighted balancing by Wargaming yet again. What a surprise....

 

Cobra 6



Dorander #11 Posted 03 May 2019 - 11:55 AM

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View PostSchepel, on 03 May 2019 - 10:35 AM, said:

The MAUS is far from invulnerable, but there is a bit of a learn to play issue here. (For arty players, not Rati.) If you go and hit a MAUS head on, it won't do THAT much. It will still stun and thereby hinder and delay. In a direct fight, stuns make the difference. Only a bad arty player would not go for the super heavy if stunning it would mean a lot of assist damage because of it. However, if you get the side, either through a direct hit or through splashing, spall liner or no, you will do significant damage. I have tested this both on the receiving end (MAUS, Type 5) and the arty end (Conq). Incidentally, I am NOT impressed by the spall liner's effect.

 

Ceterum censeo, there is a bit more skill to playing arty than generally stated. Anybody can click at any available target, but target selection (positioning) and the knowledge of how to hit to get the maximum effect requires insight and map awareness. Neither of which the average potato posesses, and forget about the usual red arty occupant. When it comes to carrying in arty, it really takes skill to make that happen. Before you lot go and have a flame party: go and try to get a 60% solo w/r in arty. See if that doesn't take some work. Then come back. :-) 

 

When did you test this? Last patch Wargaming reduced the splash coefficient on the far end of the blast zone which causes a damage recalculation for the entire impact zone, which is less impactful the closer you get to the center. In short, splash damage is nerfed and hitting closer is better.

 

My most damaging artyhits for the Maus have always been engine deck. Splashes next to it... 100-200 damage maybe.



Balc0ra #12 Posted 03 May 2019 - 12:01 PM

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View PostRati_Festa, on 03 May 2019 - 10:00 AM, said:

Am I right in thinking that when arty "bounces" off me it doesn't count to my shell bounce?

 

Yes, even when HE does zero damage. But thing is that if you are facing the sub 40 pen 155mm guns like on the Stock US tier 9, or the Russian high tiers using the 152mm with 38 pen vs the 203 and it's 52mm HE pen. They lack pen and alpha to punch past your head on more so than not. Even before this update. I remember grinding the tier 9 and doing zero damage to even the pre-buff Maus rather often. If they had spall liners or not, I can't say. And with so many still doing missions for 200 sec stuns using those guns. You get a few zero hits on you.

 

Tho the only change to spall liners this patch was the -10% to stun duration on a 2nd hit.

 

View PostRati_Festa, on 03 May 2019 - 10:00 AM, said:

Isn't arty in the game to assist with dealing with super heavies/high armour TDs? and this poses the question how are the changes making the game better? Changing for changing sake isn't a good development plan for any project.

 

Thus the stun, as that still can be there even when they hardly do damage to super heavies. If their team makes use of it or not is a different matter.

 


Edited by Balc0ra, 03 May 2019 - 12:04 PM.


pecopad #13 Posted 03 May 2019 - 12:29 PM

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View PostSchepel, on 03 May 2019 - 11:35 AM, said:

The MAUS is far from invulnerable, but there is a bit of a learn to play issue here. (For arty players, not Rati.) If you go and hit a MAUS head on, it won't do THAT much. It will still stun and thereby hinder and delay. In a direct fight, stuns make the difference. Only a bad arty player would not go for the super heavy if stunning it would mean a lot of assist damage because of it. However, if you get the side, either through a direct hit or through splashing, spall liner or no, you will do significant damage. I have tested this both on the receiving end (MAUS, Type 5) and the arty end (Conq). Incidentally, I am NOT impressed by the spall liner's effect.

 

Ceterum censeo, there is a bit more skill to playing arty than generally stated. Anybody can click at any available target, but target selection (positioning) and the knowledge of how to hit to get the maximum effect requires insight and map awareness. Neither of which the average potato posesses, and forget about the usual red arty occupant. When it comes to carrying in arty, it really takes skill to make that happen. Before you lot go and have a flame party: go and try to get a 60% solo w/r in arty. See if that doesn't take some work. Then come back. :-) 

 

I'm having problems with this post.

 

The damage formula is the following: Equation_explosion-damage.png

 

Maus sides are 185mm minimum, so max damage on a Maus is achieved when blast reaches the hood, where it has 50 mm effective armour, no way you will get max damage hitting he sides, you need to be very lucky.

 

Also why would you want to stun a superheavy that is brawling... how much assistant damage can we get? Max assistance damage is achieved by tracking the SH in the open, once he is in cover, just forget about it, stun damage potential is minimal.

 

Good arty player will not waste a shot on a SH and a long reload, only when they are in groups of tanks or standing in the open.Once they reach position its worthless.

 

 


Edited by pecopad, 03 May 2019 - 12:30 PM.


Rati_Festa #14 Posted 03 May 2019 - 12:34 PM

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View PostSchepel, on 03 May 2019 - 11:35 AM, said:

The MAUS is far from invulnerable, but there is a bit of a learn to play issue here. (For arty players, not Rati.) If you go and hit a MAUS head on, it won't do THAT much. It will still stun and thereby hinder and delay. In a direct fight, stuns make the difference. Only a bad arty player would not go for the super heavy if stunning it would mean a lot of assist damage because of it. However, if you get the side, either through a direct hit or through splashing, spall liner or no, you will do significant damage. I have tested this both on the receiving end (MAUS, Type 5) and the arty end (Conq). Incidentally, I am NOT impressed by the spall liner's effect.

 

Ceterum censeo, there is a bit more skill to playing arty than generally stated. Anybody can click at any available target, but target selection (positioning) and the knowledge of how to hit to get the maximum effect requires insight and map awareness. Neither of which the average potato posesses, and forget about the usual red arty occupant. When it comes to carrying in arty, it really takes skill to make that happen. Before you lot go and have a flame party: go and try to get a 60% solo w/r in arty. See if that doesn't take some work. Then come back. :-) 

 

I agree they could well have been noobs in arty ( aren't most, sorry couldn't resist ). My style of play in german SH's is to try and bait shots, which appears to have worked for me reasonably well as my WR is similar to my global in the Maus, PZ 7 but my damage isn't stellar. I tend to go pick a fight with a crowd, get in a real rumble, try and tie them up while my smaller team mates pick aways at them or win the other flank. Basically a big steel spoiler, I also try and bait arty shots as if they aren't shooting at me they are probably annihilating a prog 65 or a grille on my team instead.

 

What I was pointing out though ( Cobra noticed ) that if the heavy tanks are nearly immune... stunning a Maus isn't that detrimental to be honest. I go 20 kmh or I go 15 kmh... meh. The spall liner/SH armour seems to reduce it a lot compared to hits received in meds like the t44 etc... stunning a tank for longer that relies on agility is really detrimental.

 

The Maus ( spall liner ) in particular has had a massive boost with this update. It's 2 nemesis have been neutered the Jap heavy and the FV4005, and it's obligatory spall liner has been improved... neutralising the arty even further. The upcoming gold nerf will be a massive cherry on top.



Schepel #15 Posted 03 May 2019 - 12:34 PM

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View PostDorander, on 03 May 2019 - 11:55 AM, said:

 

When did you test this? Last patch Wargaming reduced the splash coefficient on the far end of the blast zone which causes a damage recalculation for the entire impact zone, which is less impactful the closer you get to the center. In short, splash damage is nerfed and hitting closer is better.

 

My most damaging artyhits for the Maus have always been engine deck. Splashes next to it... 100-200 damage maybe.

 

I am not that stupid. Obviously post 1.5.

 

500 hp hits on the MAUS are still a thing.



WindSplitter1 #16 Posted 03 May 2019 - 12:35 PM

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View PostCobra6, on 03 May 2019 - 10:45 AM, said:

 

Indeed as you point out this change to (yet again!!) appease heavy tank drivers will negatively impact all other classes in this game.

 

More arty chasing light tanks around the map instead of focussing on heavy armour like they should.

 

Dumb short-sighted balancing by Wargaming yet again. What a surprise....

 

Cobra 6

 

Not necessarily.

 

See, SPGs are meant to support. If they cannot produce damage to HTs they can stall them.

 

If my team's HTs get the Malinovka hill before the enemy's they will have the advantage there, etc.

 

Besides, an SPG driver who goes for direct hits on HTs is not a good player. Shooting for splash damage-intentional near miss, deals more damage than shooting the gun mantlet and you have a much better chance of throwing off their tracks.

 

On top of that, I'm pretty sure HTs still drive in packs so the logical approach here is to focus on the HTs even more. HT players condition themselves to a very predictable style which results in them becoming easier targets. That makes attacking other classes pointless.



Cobra6 #17 Posted 03 May 2019 - 01:04 PM

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View PostWindSplitter1, on 03 May 2019 - 11:35 AM, said:

 

Not necessarily.

 

See, SPGs are meant to support. If they cannot produce damage to HTs they can stall them.

 

If my team's HTs get the Malinovka hill before the enemy's they will have the advantage there, etc.

 

Besides, an SPG driver who goes for direct hits on HTs is not a good player. Shooting for splash damage-intentional near miss, deals more damage than shooting the gun mantlet and you have a much better chance of throwing off their tracks.

 

On top of that, I'm pretty sure HTs still drive in packs so the logical approach here is to focus on the HTs even more. HT players condition themselves to a very predictable style which results in them becoming easier targets. That makes attacking other classes pointless.

 

Well, I do hope you are right in this one but all I see when playing is that I get chased around the map in my light/medium while my heavies are left alone, which is very annoying to say the least.

 

Cobra 6



Elefantas #18 Posted 03 May 2019 - 01:10 PM

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why lose my time on superheavies when before spg "balance" did 0 - 80 dmg with obj 261 ?

lights and meds have more juice



Dorander #19 Posted 03 May 2019 - 01:14 PM

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View PostSchepel, on 03 May 2019 - 11:34 AM, said:

 

I am not that stupid. Obviously post 1.5.

 

500 hp hits on the MAUS are still a thing.

 

500 hp hits on a splash next to a Maus weren't a thing pre 1.5 unless it hit the engine deck.

Laatikkomafia #20 Posted 03 May 2019 - 01:27 PM

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View PostThe_Naa, on 03 May 2019 - 11:03 AM, said:

I really do hope players start using the spalliner instead of asking for more nerfs to Arty and HE. :P

 

Spall liners won't change the fact that the basic concept of clickers is broken.




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