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Corridor and cross-fire maps


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Japualtah #1 Posted 07 May 2019 - 01:27 PM

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On the one hand people don't like corridor maps.

The reason is obvious: you end up trapped very soon, nobody wants to push in randoms because who pushes loses his tank and there's no way to relocate on most maps if not in a light/med.

There seems to be a consensus on this, corridor maps suck because they are boring.

 

On the other hand, some people like crossfire maps, like Prokorovka.

I hate them personally, for the same reason people hate corridor maps: who plays loses, as soon as you show a bit too much of your tank above the central ridge you may as well lose it within a second to people shooting from the camping areas in the bushes and on the hill.

 

This thread is a genuine question: what would happen on a map without corridors and with limited cross-fire?

Think about Leningrad without the rubles.

Or Prokorovka with the village extending all over the crest.

Or El Halluf, flatter with a much bigger village, or rocks, whatever.

 

World of Tanks is a cross-breed between a shooter and a fishing game, which is nice, we wouldn't be here, but why don't we have even a single map where you can take a risk without being immediately crippled if things go wrong?

Why is there so much empty useless space on already ridiculously small maps?

 

Alternatively, why have WG made the damage so high and/or guns so precise?

With less damage, groups could try and make a move from a cover to another, but I can't think of a single map where that is possible.

 

Is the reason because games would end up too fast with less fear of irremediable punishment?

Or because the general population of the game is made of cowards and the key design is about keeping as many customers playing and not providing any kind of heroic experience?

 

What gives?



Miepie #2 Posted 07 May 2019 - 01:55 PM

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Would you consider Fisherman's Bay and Serene Coast as examples of "a map without corridors and with limited cross-fire"? Redshire, or is that too open? From your opinion about Prokhorovka, I'll assume you consider Malinovka to have too much crossfire as well, but how do you rate Murovanka on that scale? Is Overlord a corridormap if you don't count the beach? Questions, questions…[1] :mellow:

 

[1] well, actually I was merely adding a list of maps to my Big Excel File to mark them as "like for all", "dislike for HT", "dislike for LT" etc. to ponder about map exclusion for a bit. :hiding:



ThinGun #3 Posted 07 May 2019 - 01:57 PM

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Oh noes, sum maps I carn't alwaayz win upon.  Ban them, kill dem wiv fyre.

Suurpolskija #4 Posted 07 May 2019 - 02:19 PM

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On topic: I don't mind new maps with different styles of gameplay. Not that I mind most of the current maps. 

 

Off topic: You must be the first person to call guns in this game too accurate. 



Japualtah #5 Posted 07 May 2019 - 02:26 PM

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View PostMiepie, on 07 May 2019 - 01:55 PM, said:

Would you consider Fisherman's Bay and Serene Coast as examples of "a map without corridors and with limited cross-fire"? Redshire, or is that too open? From your opinion about Prokhorovka, I'll assume you consider Malinovka to have too much crossfire as well, but how do you rate Murovanka on that scale? Is Overlord a corridormap if you don't count the beach? Questions, questions…[1] :mellow:

 

Fisherman's Bay, it's fairly easy to fight for the west of the map and, let's say you attack from the north, get up to the windmill.

Once there, you're stuck, because of the TDs having the best protection you can dream of behind the bunker in J1.

With only one big rock between the windmill and the redline, attacking would be possible again.

It's a bit easier when attacking from the south though, and it's quite an enjoyable map if not in a heavy (in which case it's boring as hell).

 

Serene coast.

Corridor map and the best spot for ridge-fighting is completely wasted when there is arty.

 

Redshire is cross-fire heaven.

 

Campinovka is the perfect example of horrible map for heavies: even if you win the windmill, there's nothing to do there with 200m of bare open space and 5 guns pointed at you from the forest.

Center is also dead.



Rati_Festa #6 Posted 07 May 2019 - 02:30 PM

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View PostJapualtah, on 07 May 2019 - 01:27 PM, said:

 

There seems to be a consensus on this, corridor maps suck because they are boring.

 

 

You probably need to delve into that statement a little more.

 

They are seen as negative by a lot of players not just because of the environment but also because of the heavy tank meta changes some years ago. Once you are in a corridor map light scouts aren't as much use, paper tanks are very difficult to play as well... this leads to "pointless" battles in some players minds as they can't influence the results as much.

 

A lot of players ( myself included ) like the opportunity to flank opponents, corridors remove this option. Personally, I think its either lazy game design or worse still game design to promote gold spamming..



1ncompetenc3 #7 Posted 07 May 2019 - 02:38 PM

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Since your post reminded me of the western part of the original Tundra I guess the answer to "what would happen on a map without corridors and with limited cross-fire?" is "people would whine enough for it to be reworked into corridor central".

Japualtah #8 Posted 07 May 2019 - 02:53 PM

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View Post1ncompetenc3, on 07 May 2019 - 02:38 PM, said:

Since your post reminded me of the western part of the original Tundra I guess the answer to "what would happen on a map without corridors and with limited cross-fire?" is "people would whine enough for it to be reworked into corridor central".

 

Ok, so you think the map design we have now is the result of the majority of players not feeling comfortable with flanking opportunities, or, in other words, preferring not to play than being constantly at risk of seeing tanks appearing when they don't expect to?

bbmoose #9 Posted 07 May 2019 - 02:55 PM

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Redshire, Steppes, Sand River, Murovanka are maps with corridors made by passable terrain and crossfire/sniping opportunities. I've been spamming this forum with my statement about these maps being the best maps we have. These maps are also great because of 90% of the terrain is useable. The bad maps have a lot of terrain covered by mountains and cityblocks.

 

Off course they are unplayable with arty, but that doesn't mean that the maps aren't good. Arty is just a very bad implemented gamemechanic.


Edited by bbmoose, 07 May 2019 - 02:58 PM.


1ncompetenc3 #10 Posted 07 May 2019 - 03:03 PM

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View PostJapualtah, on 07 May 2019 - 02:53 PM, said:

 

Ok, so you think the map design we have now is the result of the majority of players not feeling comfortable with flanking opportunities, or, in other words, preferring not to play than being constantly at risk of seeing tanks appearing when they don't expect to?

 

Yep. The average Russian tomato (which is the only type of player WG listens to) cannot handle the information overload of having multiple approaches and lanes of fire, so WG is doing their best to make them feel more at ease in their heavies.

Dorander #11 Posted 07 May 2019 - 03:18 PM

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Redshire and Murovanka I believe are the best examples of these maps, not because they don't have any crossfire, but for how their crossfire works (with one glaring exception on Redshire where the north team has advantage). Most of the crossfire on these maps involves situations where in order to take the crossfire shots, people have to expose themselves in some manner and NOT to the typical corridor line, but to other potentially tactically placed people. The amount of hard cover in the form of houses and ridges means that crossfire opportunities are limited so you need to make your choices about how much risk you'll accept in order to take what shots.

 

A similar situation would be reached if the Prok village extended more, but not to the hill or the crest. There was a huge problem with the Assault version on that map where the hill was an unassailable campfest while the other team could just sit behind the tracks. Hard lines across the middle of the map are virtually always disastrous, but even moreso when they're sided by large open fields where flankers can hide with impunity. This is one of the huge problems of Fisherman's bay... you need somebody in the center to make sure people can't fire from there with impunity, now you got people in the center and they're basically sitting there waiting for the other side to peek out because otherwise nobody can fire on each other. El Halluf has a similar problem with the lower ground ridges. Widepark is this problem boiled down to its pure form.

 

We had a map which had the warren without corridors a little, or at least not as badly as some other maps. Stalingrad. They'd just blocked various alleys to create a corridor effect, it could've been really interesting had those been open to driving (and not merely sometimes fire). Such a map with a lot of buildings to use for cover could really work. Even more fun if some of those buildings were destructable so you can drive through a house to flank somebody or erase somebody's cover with a few shots, encouraging both agressors and defenders to frequently displace.

 

 



crnakoza #12 Posted 07 May 2019 - 03:18 PM

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I really like Prokhorovka, it's one of my favourite maps, seriously. My heart always sinks when I watch heavy tanks go hide in that forest with TDs, it is too much for a lot of people they cannot handle multiple lanes of fire. And oh god, not to mention arty can get them everywhere... they must be getting panic attacks. Played right it's delight to be played, played wrong it's a torture watching your team cluster up in that corner and waiting to be slaughtered.

Japualtah #13 Posted 07 May 2019 - 03:24 PM

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View Postcrnakoza, on 07 May 2019 - 03:18 PM, said:

I really like Prokhorovka, it's one of my favourite maps, seriously. My heart always sinks when I watch heavy tanks go hide in that forest with TDs, it is too much for a lot of people they cannot handle multiple lanes of fire. And oh god, not to mention arty can get them everywhere... they must be getting panic attacks. Played right it's delight to be played, played wrong it's a torture watching your team cluster up in that corner and waiting to be slaughtered.

 

Got a draw in a full tier X game last week there with 8 tanks remaining in each team: you can't make a move, like, at all, once spotted you're dead because there is no cover so it's only natural if heavies go to the forests, it's not by choice or fear.

Upon release, that map was my favorite, I was mostly playing the Chaffee though and scouts were real scouts before the Great Deforestation.

But now?

Unplayable in a slow tank, especially slow reverse speed.



If_I_Die_You_Die_Too #14 Posted 07 May 2019 - 03:25 PM

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Once there, you're stuck, because of the TDs having the best protection you can dream of behind the bunker in J1.

With only one big rock between the windmill and the redline, attacking would be possible again

 

Good arty will stun them and their aiming goes to pot

 

A well co-ordinated team can do things most teams cannot dream of



Japualtah #15 Posted 07 May 2019 - 03:27 PM

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View Post1ncompetenc3, on 07 May 2019 - 03:03 PM, said:

 

Yep. The average Russian tomato (which is the only type of player WG listens to) cannot handle the information overload of having multiple approaches and lanes of fire, so WG is doing their best to make them feel more at ease in their heavies.

 

Well, I'm in the same boat.

I wonder what is the general consensus about that idea.

14:29 Added after 1 minute

View PostIf_I_Die_You_Die_Too, on 07 May 2019 - 03:25 PM, said:

 

A well co-ordinated team can do things most teams cannot dream of

 

True enough, bad maps can be good for clan wars, I'm talking randoms here.

crnakoza #16 Posted 07 May 2019 - 03:29 PM

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View PostJapualtah, on 07 May 2019 - 03:24 PM, said:

you can't make a move, like, at all

 

Oh you can move, you just don't see the opportunities.

 

View PostJapualtah, on 07 May 2019 - 03:24 PM, said:

once spotted you're dead because there is no cover

 

And there's that mentality. Must. Have. Cover. You have cover, dips and bushes are you cover. You don't need walls and windows.


Some of my best games on that map were being in the middle like a boss in a heavy tank, getting all the arty attention. You just need to know how, and have a bit of resolve to actually notice and seize the opportunity when it presents itself. But also, this requires full team commitment. Not just single guy being a committed dumbass in the middle while 14 others are in the corner hiding. Basically this map requires teamplay, you can't just "OMGROFL my heavy tank is gonna drive over you, I don't care where my teammates are, you can't deal with my tank from this angle".


Edited by crnakoza, 07 May 2019 - 03:35 PM.


Japualtah #17 Posted 07 May 2019 - 03:31 PM

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View PostDorander, on 07 May 2019 - 03:18 PM, said:

This is one of the huge problems of Fisherman's bay... you need somebody in the center to make sure people can't fire from there with impunity, now you got people in the center and they're basically sitting there waiting for the other side to peek out because otherwise nobody can fire on each other

 

True enough.

The problem would go with just a few rocks in those barren areas at either end of the map.

14:34 Added after 3 minutes

View Postcrnakoza, on 07 May 2019 - 03:29 PM, said:

 

And there's that mentality. Must. Have. Cover. You have cover, dips and bushes are you cover. You don't need walls and windows.

 

Erm... well, yes... if you don't have cover, you die, did I miss something here? Or do bushes block shells just for you because you know how to talk to trees? :great:

Now the dips, sure, you may eventually get to one in a light or med, I was talking about heavies, you're dead in less than 50 meters, dips don't make it.



crnakoza #18 Posted 07 May 2019 - 03:50 PM

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View PostJapualtah, on 07 May 2019 - 03:31 PM, said:

I was talking about heavies, you're dead in less than 50 meters, dips don't make it.

 

The map is full of various dips of varying sizes, hell you spawn on one.

 

That statement about bushes... that's funny because bushes are the only thing hiding the campers in the corner. So, if the bushes don't protect you why go to the corner in the first place?



WindSplitter1 #19 Posted 07 May 2019 - 05:59 PM

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View Post1ncompetenc3, on 07 May 2019 - 02:03 PM, said:

 

Yep. The average Russian tomato (which is the only type of player WG listens to) cannot handle the information overload of having multiple approaches and lanes of fire, so WG is doing their best to make them feel more at ease in their heavies.

 

So true...

Dorander #20 Posted 07 May 2019 - 06:27 PM

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View PostJapualtah, on 07 May 2019 - 02:24 PM, said:

 

Got a draw in a full tier X game last week there with 8 tanks remaining in each team: you can't make a move, like, at all, once spotted you're dead because there is no cover so it's only natural if heavies go to the forests, it's not by choice or fear.

Upon release, that map was my favorite, I was mostly playing the Chaffee though and scouts were real scouts before the Great Deforestation.

But now?

Unplayable in a slow tank, especially slow reverse speed.

 

I disagree. It is by choice and fear. The key to controlling Prok is controlling the middle, from where you crossfire at the hill if you got spots. In high enough tiers, you can actually spot the north slope of the hill from the middle, my E50 can, so the hill doesn't even need to spot for you. Any heavy sitting behind that out of spotrange from anyone with such viewranges on the hill can crossfire the north slope with impunity.

 

If you're on the other side, a heavy can peek over the hill to spot those people and drop back down, allowing the north slope to fire (back) at these enemies. You can't push the hill if you don't control the center. North slope might spot the campers on the other end, depending on viewrange/camo/position, but it's also very likely going to get you spotted and fired upon. South slope that spots the north side is also guaranteed to get spotted in turn and take fire from the middle against whom they have zero cover.

 

The problem is that people think heavies shouldn't be doing that, except on Prok you really should. You use your armour to reveal enemies and drop down without getting hurt, you nom the assist, once the numbers are whittled down you start risking a bit more to get in damage/kills, of course you also take any shot of opportunity you have. Once you clear the center, the hill can start pushing and you can shoot at anyone your allies spot. If you drive forward along the west side, then no, your armour will almost never protect you, but then you shouldn't be there to begin with; people are just disproportionally obsessed with the northwest and southwest map corners. You partake in the crossfiring and when a side is weakened enough, then you use your armour to be the first to bludgeon down the rest of the line.






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