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Teamkill sanctions.


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friedeggnchips #1 Posted 28 May 2019 - 09:39 PM

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Right, before I start; Yes, a few years ago I was banned for teamkilling, it was almost an identicle circumstance.

 

Now, I've been playing this game for a couple of months since I came back, and It's been pretty fun. The only major problem is team rammers and killers. I'm not talking about people who join games just to plant a HE shell in your backside at the beginning of the game, I'm talking about players that shoot you once, then push you and ram you in hopes of receiving a retaliation.

 

So, this is where my story comes in. I already know that most people will criticise me for not dealing with this another way, but hey ho, I'm going to complain anyway.

 

Obviously, I can't show the replay, so this is the story of events told in full;

 

>The game starts with me in my FV4202 on Cliff.

>Im fighting in the middle of the map against a T34B, Conqueror and Caernarvon AX.

>Im trying to lure the CAX into shooting me so I can trade a shot back.

>As I am moving into another position, I get shot in the back of my turret by a friendly 50TP pr. for 458 damage.

>I ask in chat why he did it, and he didn't reply, just stared at me from the bush, behind the rock in D5.

>I shoot him back as retaliation. This may seem stupid, but as far as I see it, if you shoot me for 458 I have every right to get my own back, seeing as how he won't be punished by the teamkilling system otherwise.

>He then proceeds to come after me and ram me into the enemy fire, so I turn my turret and attempt to track him, two shots miss because he pushed me up, so my gun depression couldnt match his track and then the final shot goes into his track, as I avoid doing damage to him.

>He aims his gun at me, but I assume he knew he would get banned for teamkilling me at this point, so he instead decides to ram me again, into view of the Conqueror, where I get shot once again. 

>At this point I was fed up of getting sidetracked and shot him in his side, rolling a high shot and destroying his tank.

 

So, Judge me all you want, you have to admit this system for team damage is awful.

 

This is the response from support: 

Only in very particular cases, we can review this sanction. If you are, and only if you are, in one of the following scenarios, please re-open the ticket and attach a replay, providing the exact minute so we can see what happened:

  • Helping a team mate that was flipped over
  • Player managed to get under your vehicle by pushing
  • Player put their cannon inside your cannon or any other mechanic exploit
  • Player pushing or blocking (this will not change your sanction, but the other player will be sanctioned for Unsportsmanlike Conduct)

So for all intents and purposes, they refuse to recognise that players subject to trolls will get fed up and retaliate. 

Ask yourself this, why is it that this would count as 'team damage' if said player has no wish to play as a team, just to ruin the game for other people.


Edit: Just wanted to add that this is a classic case of how bad people get away with bad deeds, whilst good people suffer under them.

 

Edit 2: So many edits already, lol. I looked up the player on tanks.gg, this is what came up from the player, who has 3 tier 10 tanks and 5 tier 9s.

 
WN8   554.6
Win Rate   46.68%

 

 


Edited by friedeggnchips, 28 May 2019 - 09:47 PM.


malachi6 #2 Posted 28 May 2019 - 09:49 PM

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When you took your revenge shot.  Did you consider that the guy that shot you may have done so by accident and does not speak English?  Or, if he is like me, has chat disabled to filter the toxicity.

 

Sure it's frustrating to get shot by a teammate.  Stopping for a moment to consider, before doing anything to escalate an already bad situation, is probably the best measure.  

 

You have no idea if you were being trolled you reacted in a knee-jerk manner.



NekoPuffer_PPP #3 Posted 28 May 2019 - 09:52 PM

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The moment you shot him back is the moment you stooped to his level.

 

You're both to blame.



friedeggnchips #4 Posted 28 May 2019 - 10:02 PM

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View Postmalachi6, on 28 May 2019 - 08:49 PM, said:

When you took your revenge shot.  Did you consider that the guy that shot you may have done so by accident and does not speak English?  Or, if he is like me, has chat disabled to filter the toxicity.

 

Sure it's frustrating to get shot by a teammate.  Stopping for a moment to consider, before doing anything to escalate an already bad situation, is probably the best measure.  

 

You have no idea if you were being trolled you reacted in a knee-jerk manner.

 

Sure, it could have been an accident the first time, maybe he didn't speak English.

But pushing me, twice, into fire? Doesn't sound like an accident to me.

 

View PostNekoPuffer_PPP, on 28 May 2019 - 08:52 PM, said:

The moment you shot him back is the moment you stooped to his level.

 

You're both to blame.

 

Why is it that standing up for myself is now considered being as bad as the offender? Would you say that the victim of robbing is just as bad as the robber, if say, the victim fights back?

BravelyRanAway #5 Posted 28 May 2019 - 10:05 PM

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View Postmalachi6, on 28 May 2019 - 08:49 PM, said:

Did you consider that the guy that shot you may have done so by accident and does not speak English? 

 

View Postfriedeggnchips, on 28 May 2019 - 08:39 PM, said:

 

>As I am moving into another position, I get shot in the back of my turret by a friendly 50TP pr. for 458 damage.

Chances are that you moved into his shot as he was firing....it happens. I've done it accidentally a few times and did apologise, but then I do not have chat disabled. That's why you should not have shot back.



friedeggnchips #6 Posted 28 May 2019 - 10:08 PM

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View PostBravelyRanAway, on 28 May 2019 - 09:05 PM, said:

 

Chances are that you moved into his shot as he was firing....it happens. I've done it accidentally a few times and did apologise, but then I do not have chat disabled. That's why you should not have shot back.

 

You could be correct, I don't doubt that as a possibility. But when I get rammed and pushed into fire, twice? Seems like a very broken and exploitable system.

arthurwellsley #7 Posted 28 May 2019 - 10:13 PM

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I have played roughly twice as many battles as you. I have never, ever, never shot another player on my team on purpose. I have missed out on more battle buddy medals only due to players ocassionally driving in front of my gun while I was aiming at an enemy.

 

Never let yourself be lowered to the level of idiots. Ignore them.

 

Also set replays up.



BravelyRanAway #8 Posted 28 May 2019 - 10:14 PM

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View Postfriedeggnchips, on 28 May 2019 - 09:08 PM, said:

 

You could be correct, I don't doubt that as a possibility. But when I get rammed and pushed into fire, twice? Seems like a very broken and exploitable system.

The problem with some guys is temper........he thinks accident for his action but he can't understand why you don't understand and takes your action as aggression. 

The system is automatic, it can't understand the context of team damage. It's a simple shot counter.



KanonenVogel19 #9 Posted 28 May 2019 - 10:14 PM

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In my opinion, you should not have shot back if he just shot you once. The only time team damage is justified is if there's an obvious greifer on your team. In that case it's better if your team takes that tank out as soon as possible because not only will that player not help your team, he will most likely also prevent one or multiple other players on your team to win. That way, you only lose 1 tank instead of potentially multiple tanks. And also, in my opinion, never shoot someone that's blue by accident, because that player might actually want to win, just that he has been extra unlucky that round or has a short temper.

friedeggnchips #10 Posted 28 May 2019 - 10:14 PM

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View Postarthurwellsley, on 28 May 2019 - 09:13 PM, said:

I have played roughly twice as many battles as you. I have never, ever, never shot another player on my team on purpose. I have missed out on more battle buddy medals only due to players ocassionally driving in front of my gun while I was aiming at an enemy.

 

Never let yourself be lowered to the level of idiots. Ignore them.

 

Also set replays up.

 

Then clearly you are more tempered than me. 

Like I said, I could definitely have dealt with the situation better, but nevertheless, the system is broken.

21:24 Added after 9 minutes

View PostBravelyRanAway, on 28 May 2019 - 09:14 PM, said:

The problem with some guys is temper........he thinks accident for his action but he can't understand why you don't understand and takes your action as aggression. 

The system is automatic, it can't understand the context of team damage. It's a simple shot counter.

 

Which is exactly why it needs to be changed. Take Rainbow Six Siege, for example, it used to have a similar system to this game, but they changed it to a more reliable one.

If you deal damage to a friend once, it does not punish you, but once you deal damage a second time, it inflicts the damage back at you.

I can't believe this game has been around for so long without changing the system.



BravelyRanAway #11 Posted 28 May 2019 - 10:32 PM

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View Postfriedeggnchips, on 28 May 2019 - 09:14 PM, said:

 the system is broken.

Over the course of of the last week about 720,000 players played WoT on the EU server(not games, just players), but let's say it's game played.

What used to happen before the auto-system is reporting to support manually or using the ingame report system. Each report had to be looked at individually. Let's say only 1% report incidents....that's 7,200 games. How many support staff would you need to watch each replay over the course of a week to decide if a sanction is required?

That's the way it used to be and support was swamped under and couldn't cope.

Someone reckoned years back, that it would take about 120 support staff just for the EU server to review such games..........that's a serious lot of money and wasted time over trivial matters. A money pit.

So, it was decided to employ an automatic damage system to cope with the deluge of complaints by using an automatic system in game......it makes sense. It's simple because there is no other way to see damage in context.

If you can come up with a system that can understand the motive behind team-damage.........you are going to be a multi-millionaire, as no one has worked out how to do it.


Edited by BravelyRanAway, 28 May 2019 - 10:35 PM.


MeetriX #12 Posted 28 May 2019 - 10:33 PM

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Shot once: Forget about it.

Shot twice: Make them to shot you 3rd time or forget about it.

 

If he did get banned: Enjoy and forget about it.



vixu #13 Posted 28 May 2019 - 10:52 PM

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it is not broken. It worked fine.

 

- He shot you by accident. 

- You shot him cause you wanted to.

- He knew the rules and was careful not to shot back.

- You ignored the rules and shot back few times killing him...

 

System punished you cause you broke the rules.

 

How is it broken?



XxKuzkina_MatxX #14 Posted 28 May 2019 - 10:55 PM

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The system is badly implemented and you had trouble keeping your cool this battle. To be practical i suggest you use a mod that prevent you from shooting allies till they remove team damage completely. Hopefully later this year!



Bracciano_gatto #15 Posted 28 May 2019 - 11:19 PM

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Reds: you shoot the red ones, sounds simple ....

Jigabachi #16 Posted 28 May 2019 - 11:39 PM

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As soon as you shoot back, you stop being a victim. No sympathy. That "eye for an eye"-attitude is something we left back in the middle ages...
And the system isn't broken, it just isn't very good. But it still punished two teamkillers in that match.

There is a simple rule: Shoot the red ones, not the green ones. You broke it, too.

Edited by Jigabachi, 28 May 2019 - 11:41 PM.


NUKLEAR_SLUG #17 Posted 29 May 2019 - 02:25 AM

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You lost any moral highroad you had when you shot back. You got what you deserved. Don't shoot the green tanks. 

lewisdawson1 #18 Posted 29 May 2019 - 03:17 AM

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The system is terrible in the way that it allows grief'ers to get away with it whenever they like. Not to mention the system is easily exploitable, which is why people do it.

 

Systems could have been implemented years ago to solve it but haven't. For example, deduct all damage on friendly's back to you. For the sake of ramming, you simply apply the force in reverse when in contact with a friendly. Could create this in 5 mins in Unity :).



Jack_of_Words #19 Posted 29 May 2019 - 05:23 AM

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View PostBracciano_gatto, on 28 May 2019 - 11:19 PM, said:

Reds: you shoot the red ones, sounds simple ....

 

And the blue ones, of course.  I have some slight sympathy for the urge to retaliate.  I quash mine by saving it up and going all out on any blue players who show up.  (I ought to admit that I have been blue once - there's a thread somewhere, I'd got distracted by a surprise doorbell and accidentally mouse clicked, one-shotting a friendly TD.  An accident, but I'd rather my team dropped everything and 'explained' to my sorry blue **** that shooting your own side was a bad idea.  'Explained', I mean, by raining destruction on me.)

Jauhesammutin #20 Posted 29 May 2019 - 08:23 AM

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View Postfriedeggnchips, on 28 May 2019 - 09:02 PM, said:

 

Why is it that standing up for myself is now considered being as bad as the offender? Would you say that the victim of robbing is just as bad as the robber, if say, the victim fights back?

As nobody (except the 50TP) knows what caused the first shot. Was it intentional? What if he was trying to shoot the CAX but you wiggled in front of the shot? Or what if he accidentally bumped his mouse to the side of the keyboard and shot (I've done that couple of times)? What if he had horrible lag and couldn't predict your movement? 

 

If somebody takes your luggage at the airport by accident can you go and mug them? You fell on his level when you shot back. You don't have to "fight" back, you can just ignore him and drive away.






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