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Change to premium ammo use


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R3dBaron #1 Posted 31 May 2019 - 01:39 AM

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Hello all,

 

I strongly believe this game would improve a lot if the use of premium ammo is somewhat restricted. The power creep over the years is real and armor is less important than ever.

 

So, I propose a simple change:

 

1. Start each game with only normal shels immediately available, existing premium shells stay darkened until usable;

2. For every 2 hits on enemy targets with normal shells, 1 premium shell (of the total number available on the tank) becomes usable. Premium shells available can stack, 1 for every 2 hits with normal shells;

4. Autoloaders that are reloaded with premium shells selected and available will fill with premium shells until they reach 0 available and complete the reload with normal shells.

 

Best regards.

 



ExclamationMark #2 Posted 31 May 2019 - 01:42 AM

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WG already has a rework in the pipeline.

KanonenVogel19 #3 Posted 31 May 2019 - 02:54 AM

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Personally I vote no for this suggestion. Sorry, but it's just too unrealistic.

 

What's the logical explanation behind this? Why can't the loader put in a HEAT shell directly, but suddenly he can after 2 AP shells? It's these kind of "gamey" solutions that appear to solve the issue, but in fact they create new problems. That's why we have some of the problems we have ingame today, because someone thought it was a good idea to come up with completely fictional solutions rather than thinking how it works in real life.

 

There's 2 major issue with premium ammo today:

 

1) It causes penetration inflation. The premium rounds simply have too much penetration, which makes armor next to useless on many tanks. This problem also stems from an unrealistic solution. In real life, HEAT shells do not have that much penetration. In fact, on short ranges, they even have less penetration that AP rounds. Their strength lays in not losing penetration over distance. APCR shells does have high penetration on short distance, but it drops quickly over distance, and on top of that, in real life we have overpenetration aswell. As you see, real life, or rather physics, has already taken care of the balance for us, all we need to do is to copy these mechanics into the game.

 

2) It requires a high income in credits. The standard excuse here is either that premium accounts are required to actually play the game, or that players can go back to lower tiers and grind credits, or that new players can stop purchasing new tanks and shoot premium ammo instead. But that's exactly the problem. None of these things should be required in order to play the game on an equally competetive level as everyone else. Premium account should not be required, grinding credits on lower tiers should not be required either and in fact is doesn't even work because premium ammo is required in lower tiers aswell, and new players shouldn't need to halt their progress just because they want to play on the same standards as fully researched players.

 

Unfortunately, you suggestion doesn't fix any of these 2 issues, and on top of that, it's unrealistic.

 

The right approach here is to mimic how shell mechanics work in real life. Most importantly, each shell should have it's own specific situation of use. Basically, it should be a constant decision making during a battle. A player should constantly need to analyze the situation and judge which ammo type will work the best. AP shells are the default shell type, neither good or bad at anything. APCR shells are fast shells with high inital velocity, but if they have too much penetration when entering the target, they will simply go through the tank and do close to no damage. HEAT shells should not have such high amounts of penetration, but at the same time, they do not lose penetration over distance. And so on. The important part is to make them suited for different situations.

 

On top of that, WG should remove the individual shell costs and consumable costs and instead add an total service cost for each tank. The service cost should be a static cost for each tank, that represents the costs for ammo and consumables, but it doesn't take into consideration the ammo and consumables configuration of the tank. After a battle, the entire service cost is always payed, regardless if the tank was destroyed and how many shells that was shot.

 

Then it's also important to realise that this is just one part of the problem. Another very important part of the problem is the maps. We can't have maps where tanks are forced to fight each other for the front. Tank combat is about tactics, manouvering, and flanking, not going into a frontal sledgehammer party to see who can make the biggest booom.



7thSyndicate #4 Posted 31 May 2019 - 03:27 AM

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here we go again

Dis4ster #5 Posted 31 May 2019 - 04:06 AM

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I had a ranked battle today with my obj 268 which has 303mm standard AP penetration and i bounced almost all of my shots, 2 times on the flat side of an obj277, 2 times on IS7 front hull which i shot from slightly above the target and one time on the hull of a super conqueror every shot was from 350-400m away.

I can say i was lucky to even hit those shots but none of them went where i aimed them and 2 of them were clearly low pen rolls(like -25%) why because the RNG in this stupid game fochs you constantly, you miss completely or just a little and fail to pen, you roll low an pen and fail to penetrate, you need just one average damage shot to kill the enemy and you roll -1% or even -25% and leave the enemy on 1hp because why the foch not.

 

I can't believe WG tried to make this pile of crap an E-Spots Title, its a slot machine, a game based to 90% on luck, who in his right mind would think that this could work, how blinded by money could one be to not see it failing.

 

So those suggestions over all those years of powercreep and stupid balancing decisions of some crayon eating kids are all crap.

There is only one solution remove RNG to make sniping weakspots from range possible or alternatively buff standard penetration, iam sure if standard penetration is the same as premium penetration, nobody will shot gold anymore.



Indy_Bones #6 Posted 31 May 2019 - 05:26 AM

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View PostDis4ster, on 31 May 2019 - 03:06 AM, said:

There is only one solution remove RNG to make sniping weak spots from range possible or alternatively buff standard penetration

 

RNG isn't the problem, the problem was a combination of removal of existing weak points (e.g. Machine Gun Ports), the introduction of tanks that were basically impenetrable frontally UNLESS you fired premium or got lucky, and map changes which turned everything into corridors and removed flanking opportunities.

 

I remember back when I started playing, having to take the time to learn and analyse the weak spots of each tank, so that I could penetrate them if they positioned badly whilst also knowing how to position myself to mitigate damage, instead people now just tap the '2' key, the weak spots aren't even there anymore and even if they were it wouldn't matter, as who needs to learn where to aim if your ammo will just pen anyway...

 

The game was dumbed down to cater to the 47% crew who feel they should be able to put ZERO effort into learning anything about the game and yet still finish top of their teams regardless of how terrible they are at the game.

 

All the very best games are balanced around the abilities of the strongest players - the ones who can eke out every little drop of ability out of what is available, but instead WG went the other way and balanced it around people who either don't know or don't care about any of this, thus many better players left and we're now inundated with newer, lower skilled players competing on badly reworked corridor maps in overpowered or broken tanks, and where credit availability is more relevant than any sort of skill or learning process...



vasilinhorulezz #7 Posted 31 May 2019 - 08:47 AM

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View PostKanonenVogel19, on 31 May 2019 - 02:54 AM, said:

each shell should have it's own specific situation of use.

 

This.

 

Make every shell have different characteristics and have different purposes, so now players need to think "What do i want to load?", instead of "He's hull down, load the gold.". Make all shells have strengths and weaknesses, and maybe also lower the penetration values of all premium shells to a standard, probably no more that 300mm-320mm at tier X.

Right now every tank with premium APCR does not need to load any standard ammo, because there isn't a situation that it gets an advantage over APCR (apart normalization).



chainreact0r #8 Posted 31 May 2019 - 11:35 AM

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*insert CJ meme*

Only APCR is straight up better than AP. HEAT is situational and you need to be smart how to use it. That is why when you see streamers tryhard they go full APCR in SConq and 50/50 in 260/5a/430u etc.

And to everyone saying that armor is useless, i am begging you to load full gold in any tank that you want and play 10-20 battles where you only autoaim and post the replays. I guarantee you will only pen 10% of your shots, because armor actually does matter. It's just that people think this is still 2013 where e-100 actually works hull down. It just doesn't anymore and you need to adapt.

Gold ammo became the norm and you have to accept it and treat your tank's armor accordingly. It's the same as people complaining about wheelies, crying they get spotted when going for the base camp bush or the heavy corner, instead of accepting that fact and adapting their playstyle to the new meta. 

 



tajj7 #9 Posted 31 May 2019 - 11:45 AM

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Increased premium ammo use is a symptom of the meta, a meta largely designed to make the game very forgiving of bad players.

 

Namely massively over buffed armoured tanks brought into the game (Japanese heavies, Defenders, Bobjects, 430Us, turret buffs to tanks, etc.) 

 

Many maps being made into restricted corridor maps that force frontal engagements and limit player options and decision making.

 

And power creep between the tiers and bad MM so that Steve in his IS7 can bully more tier 8 tanks that can't pen him and can't flank him.

 

Of course all that is going to cause premium ammo spam, what else is expected of players.

 

I blame Murazor and his terrible reign in charge of balancing, this whole direction was basically starting by him and his biased belief that heavies should be frontally immune and we have now an armour dominated meta thanks to that guys influence.

 

Remove those problems, and the premium ammo problem large goes away, and dealing with its becomes a lot easier.

 

Armour power creep needs toning down, maps need to be bigger and give players more options and decisions to make, and MM needs to be more like -/+1

 

Just look at Frontline and how much less premium ammo is spammed, especially in the early versions before this massive grind was put in (which then panics people into thinking they have to spam premium to speed up progress). Same tier matches on big open maps that allowed flanking and tactical play, even OP heavies like the Defender were not a massive problem and people shot far far less premium ammo. 



onderschepper #10 Posted 31 May 2019 - 12:30 PM

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The obvious mistake was changing from Gold to Silver for purchase, but it is what it is.

 

HEAT rounds may seem godly with the ability to one hit kill some vehicles, but one actually has to aim for a weak spot and hit it exactly, otherwise the shell either dings off or causes Critical Damage without affecting their HP.

 

I was unaware that they had removed the MG Port as a weak point, which explains many null effects, but at least the top of the Turret Hatch is still a vulnerability otherwise those Tier 8 HTs would be near impregnable for Tier 6 HTs in a face to face encounter.

 

This also explains the lack of Visual Armour Specifications which I spent copious amounts of time studying after getting owned by an unknown vehicle so as to find the smallest of vulnerabilities - though I had assumed the feature was simply not included on PC. :B



KillingJoker #11 Posted 31 May 2019 - 12:35 PM

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The fix is already announced, they will nerf premium rounds alpha damage by between 20-25% 

 

that way players with full gold load out will be penalized in their dpm.. its a fair penalty

 

 

 



onderschepper #12 Posted 31 May 2019 - 12:47 PM

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View PostKillingJoker, on 31 May 2019 - 12:35 PM, said:

The fix is already announced, they will nerf premium rounds alpha damage by between 20-25% 

 

that way players with full gold load out will be penalized in their dpm.. its a fair penalty

 

 

 

 

Why does the solution to everything in virtually every online game involve nerfing something?

 

Note: I am aware that pandering to the Lowest Common Denominator is a general theme across society nowadays, but still.

 

(It also appears to be a common theme of many threads herein.)



Aimless #13 Posted 31 May 2019 - 12:55 PM

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View PostExclamationMark, on 31 May 2019 - 01:42 AM, said:

WG already has a rework in the pipeline.

 

I hope they don't try to make things complicated again and just quadruple the price. So only we the rich ones can afford to spam it all over :coin:

r00barb #14 Posted 31 May 2019 - 01:02 PM

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View Postonderschepper, on 31 May 2019 - 11:47 AM, said:

Why does the solution to everything in virtually every online game involve nerfing something?

 

Because as a free-to-play game progresses, long-term players require new toys to play with. Those new toys need to be better than the old toys because otherwise what's the point of getting them? The older players get the new toys and enjoy them, then new players start playing with the new toys because they're clearly better than the old toys, the old players brand the new toys as "dumbing down" because they struggle against the new toys when they're not playing with their new toys and so the call goes out to nerf the new toys. In the meantime, the game company introduces further new toys because they need to keep as many players in the game as possible in order to continue supporting the game.

 

After a few years of this the game company announces a global rebalance and all the players say, "yay, finally!" without considering that a larger cycle is about to start again.

 

Then there's my personal theory that in WoT, WG have a vested interest in buffing and nerfing tanks on a regular basis in order to keep longer term players in the grind. For example, the T110E5 was the must-have heavy tank for about a year, then the WZ-111 5A had a shout and the Squonk is the go-to right now. This means that someone who did the full US heavy grind had to do the Chinese grind then the British grind, they couldn't sit back and play their one good top tier heavy.

 

That drives player involvement and sure, you might lose a few players who say enough is enough and give up the grinding but the ones you keep are likely to be the ones who buy premium tanks and time in order to shorten those grinds.

 

But it's just a theory. :)



KanonenVogel19 #15 Posted 31 May 2019 - 02:39 PM

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View Postvasilinhorulezz, on 31 May 2019 - 08:47 AM, said:

lower the penetration values of all premium shells to a standard, probably no more that 300mm-320mm at tier X.

 

In my opinion, they shouldn't even have the concept of premium and standard ammo anymore. All ammo types should be standard, and their cost should be represented by a static service cost that a player pays after each battle. That way, players don't need to worry about the cost of ammo and consumables, but rather to pick the setup that suits them and their playstyle.

 

Also, I think it would be better if they balanced the different shells realistically. In other words, in real life, there're no shells that magically have 300-320 mm penetration without any drawbacks. HEAT shells does not have that high amount of penetration, at short distances they actually have lower penetration than AP rounds. APCR shells do have high penetration at short distane, but thanks to the balance of physics, this comes with a drawback, since the shell will overpenetrate if it's shot at something with too little armor in comparison to the shells penetration.

 

View Postchainreact0r, on 31 May 2019 - 11:35 AM, said:

where you only autoaim

 

What does autoaim have to do with anything? Do you autoaim? Do you think any other decent player autoaim?

 

The point is that a player that loads premium ammo and aims manually, can penetrate a tank much, much easier than a player that's shooting standard ammo. These high penetration shells in combination with manual aiming is what's making armor useless, since the armor scheme basically becomes inverted. Instead of having a few weakspots, the tank gets a few strongpoints. As a simple example, shooting standard ammo against a hulldown Obj.140 you need to be lucky to hit its cupolas. A better strategy is to shoot it from another angle. But with premium ammo, you can just go through the lower part of his turret.

 

View PostKillingJoker, on 31 May 2019 - 12:35 PM, said:

The fix is already announced, they will nerf premium rounds alpha damage by between 20-25%

 

Yes, but that's a lazy fix that will not really solve the core of the problem. WG should do a total redesign of both the shell mechanics and shell economics, unfortunately they picked the easy path instead of the correct path. We will still have the same problems as before, because if someone can't penetrate your armor, it's still better to do 20-25% less damage than doing no damage at all. So the people that can afford it will still spam it. And that also brings us to the next problem, the cost. If premium ammo is actually required to play the game, then it should not be a premium item, and on the other hand, if premium ammo is not required to play the game, then there's no reason for it to exist in the first place.



Maauru #16 Posted 31 May 2019 - 02:41 PM

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https://worldoftanks.ru/ru/news/updates/sandbox-announcement/

 

Use Google Translate.

From 4th June there will be Sandbox open where new Premium ammo mechanic will be tested.

They didn't announce what change it will be.

 

Probably will be soon announced on EU portal also.


Edited by Maauru, 31 May 2019 - 02:42 PM.


KanonenVogel19 #17 Posted 31 May 2019 - 02:48 PM

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View PostMaauru, on 31 May 2019 - 02:41 PM, said:

https://worldoftanks.ru/ru/news/updates/sandbox-announcement/

 

Use Google Translate.

From 4th June there will be Sandbox open where new Premium ammo mechanic will be tested.

They didn't announce what change it will be.

 

Probably will be soon announced on EU portal also.

 

Nice, thank you for the link :great:

Unfortunately they did not explain their new concept in the article :unsure:



KanonenVogel19 #18 Posted 31 May 2019 - 03:07 PM

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It's posted on the EU portal now aswell, unfortunately no detail there either :unsure:

tajj7 #19 Posted 31 May 2019 - 03:17 PM

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View PostKanonenVogel19, on 31 May 2019 - 01:39 PM, said:

 We will still have the same problems as before, because if someone can't penetrate your armor, it's still better to do 20-25% less damage than doing no damage at all. 

 

Which is a trade off, penetration for damage and is thus naturally more balanced. 

 

Armour is a tool not some sort of universal right that should work whatever you do, you have to expect to take some damage, armour is just there to extend your life and allow you to do more with your HP.

 

In your Obj. 140 example, yes the player firing HEAT opens up slightly more turret armour to pen, but still has to carefully aim and the Obj. 140 player can still make it harder for you by moving, changing positioning etc. If the  140 player is positioning properly, hitting their shots and making it difficult to hit those weaker spots, they will bounce plenty of that HEAT and will be making good trades.

 

Even more so if the premium ammo is doing 25% less damage as it basically hampers their DPM.

 

The issue with this change is that it just harms paper tanks as they don't care what ammo is shot at them and they are already struggling, this change is just going to make them weaker, whilst its essentially buffing armoured tanks that already dominate the game.

 

Which is why this change can't happen in isolation, buffs and nerfs to tanks have to be done in line with it to compensate for its impact.

 

Its a solid enough balance idea for the round itself, but the potential impact it has could cause massive problems. 

 

If WG wants us to be using more standard ammo then they need to make tanks more able to be penned by it frontally (i.e Type 5), they need to give us bigger and more open maps to allow us to flank,  they need to give us more favourable MM for lower tiers tanks so they are not faced with +2 tanks they can;t pen with standard ammo and are doing pathetic damage to with the 'nerfed' prem ammo. Plus they seriously need to look at a lot of standard ammo values for a lot of tanks like the Comet, T-54, E50, Patton, T32, tier 10 lights etc. as there too many tanks with penetration that just does not cut it at the tier they are on. 


Edited by tajj7, 31 May 2019 - 03:20 PM.


KillingJoker #20 Posted 31 May 2019 - 03:38 PM

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View PostKanonenVogel19, on 31 May 2019 - 02:39 PM, said:

 

Yes, but that's a lazy fix that will not really solve the core of the problem. WG should do a total redesign of both the shell mechanics and shell economics, unfortunately they picked the easy path instead of the correct path. We will still have the same problems as before, because if someone can't penetrate your armor, it's still better to do 20-25% less damage than doing no damage at all. So the people that can afford it will still spam it. And that also brings us to the next problem, the cost. If premium ammo is actually required to play the game, then it should not be a premium item, and on the other hand, if premium ammo is not required to play the game, then there's no reason for it to exist in the first place.

 

No, its a measure that will penalize lazyness, because that's what spamming gold is... being lazy

People spamm gold because they don't want to think to much...  tier X mediums a see's a heavy, imediately spams gold in the heavies strongest part of its armor and penetrates...

this game already gives medium tanks much better dpm, much better gun handling and much mobility compared to heavy tanks but in the current meta

you just have to load gold and instantly a heavy tank becomes a very slow medium, with poor depm and poor gun handling, because its armor is gone...


Do you even understand my point? 


gold spamming will allways exist, but at least, people who don't spamm gold will be rewarded by having more damage either in trading, either in going for gunmarks etc etc

 

Want to spamm gold? good do it...but you will do less 25% per hit... dont like it? don't spamm gold then learn to play without gold, be a more effective player






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