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A rant - The current ranked system is *edited* and needs to be reworked - and why that wont happen (...


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Rorsch4ch #1 Posted 01 June 2019 - 03:54 AM

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I get it.... you want to reward players for doing well even if their team isnt. This shows that at least SOME kind of thinking went into this and it might even work in a perfect world filled with perfect people but does anyone at WG even realize what the results of the current system are in a reality that is full of actual shity human beings?

 

The result of the current chevron system is that its no longer the "best" outcome to play for your team to win. Read that sentence and let it sink in a bit, that is an absolutely attrocious statement for a team based multiplayer game.

 

Right now you dont care if your team wins or looses, the only thing you care about is getting top 5 so you dont loose your precious chevrons. Defeat or sucess doesnt matter as long as you yourself get top 5. This promotes the absolute worst kind of gameplay for WoT, every other game people just camp behind the arti in heavys, scouts drive about 100 meters from spawn into the next best bush and then sit there doing nothing all game, people flat out refusing to do anything except follow the lemming train because god forbid you and 2 other guys try to hold the other flank and die BEFORE you got enough damage/kills to get into the top 5.

 

I mean I get it, its a multiplayer game with 14 randoms on your team you can have zero trust in and who will probably die faster than medieval peasants during the black plague but come the [edited]on... to actualy set incentives to reward playing like a total [edited]and sacrifice your teammates for your own gains... thats some next level bad game design. Its also contrary to the intent of a ranked game mode, cause right now it wont be only the best players who make it to the top and give everyone else a ranking of where they stand. As long as you manage to somewhat consistenly get top 5 SOMEHOW you can just grind your way to the top as long as you got no life and can play like 15 hours a day....

 

So how do you fix this? Well as i said in the title already, they wont. Why? Well because it would require WG to finaly get of their bums and implement an elo based system for rankeds where everyone gets assigned a matchmaking rating and gains or losses to your personal rating are based on the strength of the opponents you played (If you defeat an opponent with a higher rating than yours you gain more rating points than if you defeat an opponent with a lower rating) Now I might be leaning out of a window here and opperate on guess basis alone but judging by how long it took WG to do something about 3-5-7 MM the chances of an elo system seem rather slim before the year 2034. As for other fixes to somehow get ppl to play to win instead of going full egomode... any tiered system relying on +/- ammounts of points with somewhat random mm inherently incentivices sacrficing your team for your personal gain. The only way to somewhat prevent this would be a flat +1 for wins, -1 for losses which brings us back to the problem of having to rely on strangers on your team (which would be a smaller and smaller factor with increasing sample size) and not rewarding ppl on the loosing team for good play. Oh and while flat +/- 1 would eventualy sort pll according to skill it would take roughly forever to do so or at least way longer than a couple of weeks of ranked. The only thing I can think of right now to reduce this ego mentality would be to only allow players to "chevron-up" on wins only but that would only increase the duration of the grind and do nothing to fix the actual problem. As for the matchmaking itself are queue times that much of a problem that we constantly have to play with such a large range of chevron ranks? I would at least limit mm to be within the diffrent divisions, ie if your in qualification you only play vs other players also in qualifications, same for bronze/sillver/gold.

 

So yeah.... rant end I guess.... if anyone got any genius ideas to fix this systems inherent flaws the comments are all yours. If you dont have any ideas and just want to *edited*, be my guest, I cant keep you from doing so anyways :P

 

tldr: ranked bad, dont do it

 


Edited by G_Bg_82, 01 June 2019 - 11:30 AM.
edited due to not constructive content


XxKuzkina_MatxX #2 Posted 01 June 2019 - 04:35 AM

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It's a team based game in format only not in game play. Not in ranked, not in any other mode and i believe never was except for those very rare moments.

 

Ranked was just like you described since the first beta season, every man for himself. The front disintegrates faster than you can pay attention to your allies running away even with full HP.

 

That's supposed to be WG's fault? I don't think so, people play like this in randoms, in FL, in TBs sometimes and even in CWs you can sense the "take this shot, i am better alive than you are" vibe.

 

They tried the ±1 chevron at first, i think, and it was a dummy loop until some random guy in one of the teams managed to carry and break the cycle. That was a waste of time and credits if i remember correctly.

 

No offense but sometimes it's impossible to deal with this player base through numbers and equations!



the_nebuchadnezzar #3 Posted 01 June 2019 - 06:25 AM

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Hmm... No! You want team play, go join a clan. Ranked is something else. Stop ranting and start play what you must in order to get that chevron. 

wsatnutter #4 Posted 01 June 2019 - 06:56 AM

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reported

Yaccay #5 Posted 01 June 2019 - 07:00 AM

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Ranked is optional.

You do not like it, then do not play it.

 

I think ranked is nothing else but random on stereoids.

Players - who play it  - are generallybetter, they also try harder to win a chevron, they also invest more into it, hence the gold spam. And yes, everyone for himself... just like in random.

 

 



Stevies_Team #6 Posted 01 June 2019 - 07:11 AM

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Advance the self to the detriment of others...

 

...sounds familiar

 

If the planet, society, the team or the environment go down the crapper then so be it

 

Forwards to Victory!

 

If they made football a game where you did better if your team lost do you think this would make it more popular?
 



NUKLEAR_SLUG #7 Posted 01 June 2019 - 08:11 AM

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View PostRorsch4ch, on 01 June 2019 - 03:54 AM, said:

Right now you dont care if your team wins or looses, the only thing you care about is getting top 5 so you dont loose your precious chevrons. Defeat or sucess doesnt matter as long as you yourself get top 5. 

 

... 

 

So how do you fix this? 

 

 

Chevrons for everyone on the winning team, extras for the top players. Everyone on the losing team loses one.

 

Fixed. 



Japualtah #8 Posted 01 June 2019 - 08:36 AM

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ELO is a big word and will get you banned faster than 'Ni!'

 

You're right OP, this game mode, unless you are incredibly skilled, encourages not to play.

The kind of situation where some famous streamers says 'Now I think I got to support my XXXX' which translates into: oh! juicy meatshield there, I better get behind fast to rake in some shots!

 

But what can you do?

Development has ended for WoT, don't expect the marketing team or the variable managers to come up with anything original and game-changing.



Dava_117 #9 Posted 01 June 2019 - 08:55 AM

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IMO, what Ranked really miss is the chance to toon. One of our kind advantage is that humans are social, so why can't we bring this advantage in Ranked? Every person would still have it's own score, but at least you have people you trust and on wich you can rely.

ExclamationMark #10 Posted 01 June 2019 - 08:58 AM

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression ranked is a gamemode? Not a disease.

Enherjaren #11 Posted 01 June 2019 - 09:32 AM

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Yeah this Ranked is a mess. I honestly liked the ranking system personally. However the queue time is insane and clearly the average and below average are not playing the game mode at all. I think ranked need a even more chevron positive system then the current version, not because I don't like challenge personally, but without a high number of players the game mode will die.  

 

I can't even get a game started, because the timer for MM hits maximum. Granted I'm trying to play early on a saturday at 10:30 CET, but still. 

"Maximum time in queue for battle has expired. Select another vehicle or try again later."


Edited by Enherjaren, 01 June 2019 - 09:34 AM.


Ggorc #12 Posted 01 June 2019 - 09:34 AM

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Ranked name is misleading, players expect to receive a rank and play with people at the same rank, that's how every game in history implemented ranked. This is a lie.

Bordhaw #13 Posted 01 June 2019 - 09:44 AM

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View PostRorsch4ch, on 01 June 2019 - 02:54 AM, said:

I get it.... you want to reward players for doing well even if their team isnt. This shows that at least SOME kind of thinking went into this and it might even work in a perfect world filled with perfect people but does anyone at WG even realize what the results of the current system are in a reality that is full of actual shity human beings?

 

The result of the current chevron system is that its no longer the "best" outcome to play for your team to win. Read that sentence and let it sink in a bit, that is an absolutely attrocious statement for a team based multiplayer game.

 

Right now you dont care if your team wins or looses, the only thing you care about is getting top 5 so you dont loose your precious chevrons. Defeat or sucess doesnt matter as long as you yourself get top 5. This promotes the absolute worst kind of gameplay for WoT, every other game people just camp behind the arti in heavys, scouts drive about 100 meters from spawn into the next best bush and then sit there doing nothing all game, people flat out refusing to do anything except follow the lemming train because god forbid you and 2 other guys try to hold the other flank and die BEFORE you got enough damage/kills to get into the top 5.

 

I mean I get it, its a multiplayer game with 14 randoms on your team you can have zero trust in and who will probably die faster than medieval peasants during the black plague but come the [edited]on... to actualy set incentives to reward playing like a total [edited]and sacrifice your teammates for your own gains... thats some next level bad game design. Its also contrary to the intent of a ranked game mode, cause right now it wont be only the best players who make it to the top and give everyone else a ranking of where they stand. As long as you manage to somewhat consistenly get top 5 SOMEHOW you can just grind your way to the top as long as you got no life and can play like 15 hours a day....

 

So how do you fix this? Well as i said in the title already, they wont. Why? Well because it would require WG to finaly get of their bums and implement an elo based system for rankeds where everyone gets assigned a matchmaking rating and gains or losses to your personal rating are based on the strength of the opponents you played (If you defeat an opponent with a higher rating than yours you gain more rating points than if you defeat an opponent with a lower rating) Now I might be leaning out of a window here and opperate on guess basis alone but judging by how long it took WG to do something about 3-5-7 MM the chances of an elo system seem rather slim before the year 2034. As for other fixes to somehow get ppl to play to win instead of going full egomode... any tiered system relying on +/- ammounts of points with somewhat random mm inherently incentivices sacrficing your team for your personal gain. The only way to somewhat prevent this would be a flat +1 for wins, -1 for losses which brings us back to the problem of having to rely on strangers on your team (which would be a smaller and smaller factor with increasing sample size) and not rewarding ppl on the loosing team for good play. Oh and while flat +/- 1 would eventualy sort pll according to skill it would take roughly forever to do so or at least way longer than a couple of weeks of ranked. The only thing I can think of right now to reduce this ego mentality would be to only allow players to "chevron-up" on wins only but that would only increase the duration of the grind and do nothing to fix the actual problem. As for the matchmaking itself are queue times that much of a problem that we constantly have to play with such a large range of chevron ranks? I would at least limit mm to be within the diffrent divisions, ie if your in qualification you only play vs other players also in qualifications, same for bronze/sillver/gold.

 

So yeah.... rant end I guess.... if anyone got any genius ideas to fix this systems inherent flaws the comments are all yours. If you dont have any ideas and just want to *edited*, be my guest, I cant keep you from doing so anyways :P

 

tldr: ranked bad, dont do it

 

 

*edited*

Edited by G_Bg_82, 01 June 2019 - 11:39 AM.
edited due to not constructive content


Stevies_Team #14 Posted 01 June 2019 - 09:58 AM

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They should spawn you all round the map so you can shoot everybody

Last man standing wins

No "team" nonsense to deal with



Rorsch4ch #15 Posted 01 June 2019 - 12:23 PM

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View PostIf_I_Die_You_Die_Too, on 01 June 2019 - 09:58 AM, said:

They should spawn you all round the map so you can shoot everybody

Last man standing wins

No "team" nonsense to deal with

A Battle Royale modus for WoT. You need to shut up before you give WG any ideas to jump on the BR hypetrain :rolleyes: Although that could potentialy be fun as a temp game mode where everyone plays the same tank for equality so it doesnt get overrun by 279e's or something.

View PostDava_117, on 01 June 2019 - 08:55 AM, said:

IMO, what Ranked really miss is the chance to toon. One of our kind advantage is that humans are social, so why can't we bring this advantage in Ranked? Every person would still have it's own score, but at least you have people you trust and on wich you can rely.

That would be a disaster imho, not only do plats signigicantly increase your win % and thus would have to be accounted for in MM, they would also open the door for buying/selling boosting services

View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 01 June 2019 - 08:11 AM, said:

 

Chevrons for everyone on the winning team, extras for the top players. Everyone on the losing team loses one.

 

Fixed. 

That brings us back to the problem of not rewarding players on the loosing team for good play at all. Then again that point is kinda moot as I already pointed out in my original post that any kind of reward for the loosing team automaticaly will lead back to the behaviour we have right now, ie not playing to win as a team in favor of personal gain. So maybe it would be the better solution to just say the loosers get all -1 and the winners all +1 with the best 3/5/whatever getting +2. But I guess that method doesnt hide the fact that ranked is just a nolife grind well enough for WGs tastes...

View PostJapualtah, on 01 June 2019 - 08:36 AM, said:

ELO is a big word and will get you banned faster than 'Ni!'

 

You're right OP, this game mode, unless you are incredibly skilled, encourages not to play.

The kind of situation where some famous streamers says 'Now I think I got to support my XXXX' which translates into: oh! juicy meatshield there, I better get behind fast to rake in some shots!

 

But what can you do?

Development has ended for WoT, don't expect the marketing team or the variable managers to come up with anything original and game-changing.

Im new to the forums so idk about that:teethhappy: Is Elo such a bad word around here? I guess it has been thrown around alot in context of skillbased mm for normals a lot? Also WHY is it such a bad word? If games like league of legends and dota2 can make it work where your playing with randoms on a team too why should it be impossile to implement for WoT? I mean the ranked mode would be the perfect test ballon for it, its limited to a single tier already and temporary too so you can make adjustments if things dont go as planed.

View PostYaccay, on 01 June 2019 - 07:00 AM, said:

Ranked is optional.

You do not like it, then do not play it.

 

I think ranked is nothing else but random on stereoids.

Players - who play it  - are generallybetter, they also try harder to win a chevron, they also invest more into it, hence the gold spam. And yes, everyone for himself... just like in random.

 

 

Well thats not realy my point tho. Personaly ive tried it and wont play it any further but thats up to everyone to decide for themselves. My problem is that they implemented a game mode where the best strategy is no longer to play to win as a team in favor of just "minimizing looses" for yourself. As i already wrote in the opener, wining or loosing is completly besides the point now, as long as you make top5 on the loosing team your good to go since you will win games again eventualy .



r00barb #16 Posted 01 June 2019 - 12:29 PM

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View PostEnherjaren, on 01 June 2019 - 08:32 AM, said:

... and clearly the average and below average are not playing the game mode at all.

 

As an average player I can confirm that I couldn't care less about ranked. I get enough abuse for not playing the way some people want me to in lower tiers, why would I subject myself to further abuse in a more stressful environment with so much willy-waving about numbers flying around?

 

Of course, the ranked environment might not be anything like that, I wouldn't know, but my point is that it's the impression I've gleaned from watching a stream or two and reading a few of the threads on here. I appreciate that the forum is merely a microcosm of the player base but it's enough to inform me that ranked is not a mode for me.

 

That might all change should I find a tier 10 tank that I enjoy playing and can do well in but I wouldn't advise anyone to hold their breath for that eventuality. :harp:



PayMore #17 Posted 01 June 2019 - 12:46 PM

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I think ranked is very unfair agianst arty with the stun nerf.

NUKLEAR_SLUG #18 Posted 01 June 2019 - 12:57 PM

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View PostRorsch4ch, on 01 June 2019 - 12:23 PM, said:

That brings us back to the problem of not rewarding players on the loosing team for good play at all. Then again that point is kinda moot as I already pointed out in my original post that any kind of reward for the loosing team automaticaly will lead back to the behaviour we have right now, ie not playing to win as a team in favor of personal gain. So maybe it would be the better solution to just say the loosers get all -1 and the winners all +1 with the best 3/5/whatever getting +2. But I guess that method doesnt hide the fact that ranked is just a nolife grind well enough for WGs tastes...

 

There is no problem, you just don't reward players for losing. If you want the rewards you play to win. If you play well you get extras and progress faster.

 

Why should you be rewarded for being 'best loser'?



shikaka9 #19 Posted 01 June 2019 - 02:05 PM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 01 June 2019 - 03:35 AM, said:

It's a team based game in format only not in game play. 

:bajan:



Indy_Bones #20 Posted 01 June 2019 - 03:38 PM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 01 June 2019 - 11:57 AM, said:

 

There is no problem, you just don't reward players for losing. If you want the rewards you play to win. If you play well you get extras and progress faster.

 

Why should you be rewarded for being 'best loser'?

 

That's the point though Slug, they're not rewarding 'winning', they're rewarding killstealing, damage priorisation and basically turning the whole thing into a sprint for who can do the most damage/kills before dying.

 

You're not going to see cap wins in ranked very often (if ever), you don't see any sort of team play or tactical approach that is beneficial to a win status but potentially detrimental to an individual player, and it's ridiculous that people on the losing side can lose chevrons despite having done twice or 3x the damage of a much worse player in the 'winning' side.

 

The whole game mode is a joke, and is also yet another gamemode that interferes with many clan based modes, because half the clan's players are too busy chasing chevrons in ranked and credits in FL, to want to give up an hour or two in an evening to play CW or Skirms/Advances...






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