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5 changes needed to improve lower/mid tier gameplay (especially for new players)


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tajj7 #1 Posted 05 June 2019 - 10:30 AM

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So recently I have been playing some games on my referral account, its probably the longest time I have spent down at tier 4 and 5 for a while, especially playing free to play, non trained up crews etc. 

 

And I really think WG needs to do more to improve these tiers because I can only imagine what new players are feeling progressing through that environment now and how many players stop around tiers 3-5 due to these issues.

 

Getting people hooked on the game probably depends on their experiences in tiers 4 - 6, this is where the game moves away from the machine gun car madness, at lower tiers, to more defined classes, longer grinds, more amour etc. So WG should be doing more IMO to improve this environment and these are things I think would help that experience - 

 

1. The HP pool buff needs to be more. 

 

Obviously this is being tested by WG and its desperately needed, I was playing in the French M10 tier 5 free TD from the missions, poked to finish of a Cromwell and although I knew I might take a hit for it, I wasn't expecting to die for it, especially from fire from just ONE tank. Although part of this was me forgetting how slow TDs reverse as I had been playing meds up to that point. But I still died before I could get into cover because I got shot just 3 times by a tier 6 medium (top tier Pudel player camping at the back who had not been spotted by this point like 5 mins into the game).

 

I mean I made a mistake yes, a small one as I was not that far from cover but I got wrecked by a medium just one tier above because it was able to do 3 shots of 135 damage in under 7s. Having a tank with the potential to reach over 2.4k DPM that regularly sees tanks with 350 health is just silly.

 

I mean imagine a Waffle IV, being shot at by an Obj. 140, even with HE, its going to take the Obj. 140 at least 4 shots to kill it from full HP, which is around 15 - 16s, with standard rounds its at least 5 shots if the rolls are average, which is more like 20s. And that is one of the highest DPM meds on tier 10 (with vents, rammer, BIA and food), against on the lower HP TDs on tier 9, the Pudel is not even the highest DPM tier 6 med.

 

So on tier 9 a player makes that similar muck up I did, he has like 15s to get into cover before he dies, at least, if not more like 20s, but at tier 5, where new players are, you have like 7s. 

 

But I wonder whether WG's proposed changes are enough, under the current test I would have had 458 health, so under the same situation I might have made it into cover with about 50 health left, but it would only take that Pudel to high roll a couple of shots (it can roll as high as 169) and I'd still be dead in under 7s.  
 

It would still be under 10s even with low rolls, and even with a buffed hit points of 460, a pimped out Easy8 for example would still be able to kill most tier 5 TDs in under 8s from full hit points. 

 

So my suggestion would be the HP buffs need to go a bit further and be more, is 50 - 80 more hit points going to make a massive difference to survability of a Cromwell? I don't think so. 

 

Current ratios are -

 

Posted Image

 

I'd suggest adding about 10% extra to those numbers, so tier 6 would be more like 22%, so a Cromwell would have about 900 hit points from 750, tier 5 TD would have about 490-500 etc.

 

It seems kind of silly to me that the most paper and low health of tier 9 tanks take 15-20s to kill from full HP from the best DPM tier 10s, but even with these HP buffs we'd still have tier 5 tanks being killed in about 10s by tier 6 mediums. 

 

Current TTK (time to kill) on those tiers seems at least twice as fast if not more than higher tiers, which doesn't really make much sense if you want to give players a chance to learn from mistakes. 

 

2. Fix the stats padder/seal clubber problem. 

 
I feel this is a massive one, the amount of clubbing going on at like tiers 3,4,5 is massive. I know there is newbie protection at very low tiers but I think this needs extending, if possible, to at least tier 5, maybe even tier 6.
 
The amount of people I was meeting in battles with 5k, 7k, 10k, in some cases even 15k battles in the same tank or handful of tanks (and we all know what tanks) was disgusting, people who could barely manage 50% win rates at tiers 8-10, were pushing 65-75% WRs in these tanks.
 
I can only imagine how disheartened new players must be to get their behinds handed to them on a plate by these players, only to click on their records to see these guys have 30, 40, 50, 70k plus battles. I reckon these sort of players are responsible for loads of players leaving the game early on. 
 
My suggestion would be basically to draw some sort of line in the sand and say if you have say 10k battles or more and you play tier 5 and under, then you only face other people with that level of experience. 
 
Of course it would depend on queues, available players etc. so the MM might have to make adjustments depending on population and it might not be an option on smaller servers, but I think it could be more than doable on the EU and RU servers, especially at peak time.
 
Let the newbs have a bit of breathing space, not get clubbed to death by experienced players, I don't think protecting them at like tier 2 is good enough. You can't learn the game at tier 2, the game only really starts to develop at tiers 4 and 5, its where you get heavies, armour starts to play more of a role, classes diversify a bit more, the machine guns are pretty much gone.
 
I also realise you wouldn't stop rerolls etc. but I still think it would help, and at least with rerolls (or invite accounts like me etc.) they are not packed full of 6 skill crews, bond equipment etc. that the experience seal clubbers are running.
 
3. Sixth Sense for everyone. 
 
I know WG was planning to do this, but we have not heard anything about it, but I think this is really important. Its the one crew skill that makes a massive difference, all the rest are nice to have but dont make a huge difference to tank performance like sixth does. 
 
I also feel this is a simple change, its almost already coded in as well considering the directive gives you sixth without the skill.
 
4. Nerf the derps and lower tier arty. 
 
Posted Image
 
Put some of the best well known mid tier derp tanks there, there are obviously more, but as you can see several of them are basically OP.
 
You see similar with lots of the tier 5 and 6 arty as well, *cough* LeFH * cough* -
 
Posted Image
 
But also Bishop, M44 etc, a lot of these arties make players over perform, especially average to below average players get their skill essentially boosted by these derp tanks and mid tier arty.
 
They just have too much alpha, sure the HP buff should help a bit, but an M4 Sherman is still able to do 410 damage with its 105mm derp in one shot, which would still leave the tier 5 TDs and lights able to be easily one shot even with their buffed super test HP, and the silly thing is its able to do it like every 7.5s with equipment and crew skills.
 
KV-2 will still be able to one shot most same tier meds, TDs and many heavies, even with the buffed HP they are testing.
 
And with armour levels so low on these tiers, so many tanks are pennable compared to higher tiers where most tanks have amrour to resist these derp guns.
 
As for the arty well that is just ridiculous, when you start comparing the alpha, reload and penetration of these tier 5 and 6 arties, with the high tier ones, it becomes obvious why they are so strong.
 
I mean for example the T92 has the highest arty alpha on tier 10 at 1300, and it has 60mm of pen. Average HP on tier 10 is about 2k probably, so it can do about 60% of most tier 10s HP in damage IF it pens, which is unlikely with 60mm pen, as even many meds have more than 60mm side armour etc.
 
Plus it has over a 40s reload. 
 
The M41, on tier 5, does 550 damage with 38mm of pen, every 21s. The average HP on tier 5 is more like 450 - 500, and there is far less armour about on the tier so it can pen way more tanks than tier 9 and 10 arties can.
 
So we have a tier 10 arty that is barely able to pen anything and even it does it can do about 60% of the HP of most tier 10 tanks every 40s or so.
 
And then the tier 5 is able to one shot a whole host of tier 5 tanks, almost all of them, pen loads of tanks and do this every 21s.
 
Its just silly. Clearly the tier 5 and 6 arty need bringing in line with their pen, DPM and alpha compared to their tier 9 and 10 counterparts. 
 
All of this just makes an unforgiving environment for new players, they peek or make a mistake and blam back to garage in one shot, thanks for playing. (no mistake needed for arty either, just get spotted).
 
Hardly a good teaching or learning experience, make a tiny mistake, have your game ended. All that does is encourage you to camp IMO.  
 
At higher tiers we've seen consistently that one shots and high alpha is not liked or is nerfed or removed by WG. So massive arty alpha at higher tiers was reduced, the 183 was removed, the FV4005 was nerfed into the ground, the JpE100 remains a poor platform etc. And yet all these tanks are generally not able to one shot same tier tanks as easily as the lower tier derps can.
 
But lower tiers ones are able to one shot same tier tanks, and generally are much better platforms, I mean the M4 or PzIV H are mobile, have gun depression, view range and their gun handling is way better than like an FV 183 for example. 
 
My idea would be, in conjunction with the HP buffs, nerf the alpha of these derp guns by about 10-15%, like say 350 for the M4 derp, 780 for the KV-2 etc.  If these vehicles start to underperform then they can have some of their other characteristics buffed up a little (but looking at WR curves they won't need it).
 
For the arties they need to be in line with the tier 10s relative to their tiers, so need reductions in penetration and alpha. 
 
5. Nerf the Camo values. 
 
Much like the HP to DPM on lower tiers is out of whack, so is the camo to view range, massively.
 
  • On tier 10, there is just one tank (Strv 103B) with over 20% stationary camo, in the top 10 tanks by camo you are already dropping down to about 16%.
  • On tier 9, similar picture, just one tank over 20%, again at 10th place it has already dropped to 16%.

 

Average view range at tier 9 ad 10 is pretty much 390 to 400m, some tanks have 420m. 

 

But then what about tier 4 and 5?

 

  • On tier 4, there are EIGHT TDs alone, that have more than 20% base camo, some get as high as 26% stationary camo. There are 24 tanks (not SPGs) in total that have more than 16% base camo, compared to just 10 on tier 9 and 10.
  • On tier 5, similar picture, 8 TDs with more than 20% base, 14 tanks in total with more than 16%.

 

Yet average view ranges on tier 4 and 5?

 

  • Best on tier 4, is 370m, average is more like 320m.
  • Best on tier 5 (ignoring OP LeFH), is 370m, average is more like 340m.

 

So why are there way more high level camo tanks on tiers 4 and 5, than there are on tier 10, despite view range being way better (and lets not even talk about more people having better crews, sixth sense, more likely to have equipment etc. on tier 10)?

 

It makes no sense.

 

We all know how hard it is, even in fully pimped tier 10 meds with like 500m view range to spot Strvs, but that is nothing compared to some tier 4 or 5 med with a 100% crew, barely scraping 400m, trying to spot TDs that have 25% base camo. 

 

What this does is again make the game very punishing, especially for heavy tank, light tank and medium tank players trying to do something at these tiers, trying to outspot TDs, that often have binos and camo net, that are probably pushing 40% base camo before they even use a bush, with tanks that have 380-390m view range.

 

This makes the game very campy and very skewed to passive play, people who want to be active and attack just get punished for it. 

 

IMO camo at these tiers needs bringing down a lot, to be more in line with the average view range. 

 

I would reckon tier 4 and 5 camo probably needs bringing down by a good 30%.

 

This would for example take a T67 down from over 20%, to about 14.5% base camo.  I'd also make it a global nerf so you can include premiums. 

 
Edit: I was going to also mention OP tanks, but sadly a lot of these are premiums and not much can be done, but I think others are kind of covered by the derp, arty and camo changes, as a lot of the OP tanks, like T67 for example, would be less effective with less camo etc. So do the global changes and then balance what tanks still need changing.
 
I also feel if WG had the guts they could easily afford to nerf the lower tier premiums and off refunds, but they wouldn't. 

Edited by tajj7, 05 June 2019 - 10:55 AM.


Steve8066 #2 Posted 05 June 2019 - 10:41 AM

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biggest problem i had when starting and going thru the low tiers was none of what you listed, it was the machine-gun tanks. they completely ruined low tiers for me.

 

With regards to your final point about nerfing camo across all tiers inc. premiums, you cant nerf premiums without WG getting dragged into legal problems.



Miepie #3 Posted 05 June 2019 - 11:11 AM

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Yeah, the machine gun tanks were an annoyance; buzz-sawing you in half in 3 seconds [1].

A second big issue for me was the need to look all over the web to find the info I was actually looking for. There's not even a link to the WoT-wiki in the dropdown-menu of the WoT-website; tanks.gg is a lot more useful than the tankopedia, etcetera…

 

 

[1] experienced players can gun down a moving Pz IC while it's still at distance (or at least convince them to seek fruitful venture elsewhere); genuine noobs lack the gunhandling skill that requires.



Aimless #4 Posted 05 June 2019 - 11:21 AM

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View PostSteve8066, on 05 June 2019 - 10:41 AM, said:

biggest problem i had when starting and going thru the low tiers was none of what you listed, it was the machine-gun tanks. they completely ruined low tiers for me.

 

With regards to your final point about nerfing camo across all tiers inc. premiums, you cant nerf premiums without WG getting dragged into legal problems.

 

The first is actually an issue would be solved by buffing the HP pool, while a solution to the premium tanks was also mentioned by him in the last line of his post.

 

GJ tajj. But please delete everything about nerfing the derps! I don't want to hear about that :angry:



Balc0ra #5 Posted 05 June 2019 - 12:12 PM

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1: You don't want it to be too big. As then you just end up like low tiers on Blitz after they did it. It will punish people less for mistakes, as they live longer. So when you get to tier 6 and the HP vs alpha is balanced differently. They suffer more for it, as their old way of yoloing for suddenly did not work anymore. And they die faster.

 

2: Simple fix for that is just to get the protective MM back. As there also are people that only play tier 1 to 3, just as there are people that only play tier 8 to X. So just get the old protective MM back. Set it for tier 1 to 3, and for anyone with less then say 2 to 3K games. As before when we had this, the MM took 2-4 players with less then 2500 battles into normal MM. But never took players with more then 2500 into the "protected games". Thus new players faced new players more then they a guy with 10K games in this Pz II. And ofc some days there won't be enough players to get games going. So having a few bot players on low tier protected games only is not the worst idea either.

 

3: Look to console. They have 6th sense split into two. One for everyone by default. But it's more delayed, and not at the center of the screen. It's just a "spotted warning" at the side. The skill lets you know faster. A better option atm would be ofc to reward more 100% crew with 1 skill at lower tiers for new players only via the new player missions sets they currently have, or just the commander with a zero skill 6th sense for any tank they want a few times. Vs just the 100% base crew on tier 1 tanks.

 

4: Tbh any SPG with a 150mm gun on higher on tier 6 and down needs a slap. Russia has way to many on low tiers. And even the German Bison that's the only tier 3 with stun. And ofc the US tier 6. The lower calibers are fine, or underpowered like the 304. As having 304's vs M44 on the teams is a bit nasty when you see your SPG hit for 50 damage, and theirs for 400. 

 

But as for derps? Again look to Blitz. They removed derps on tier 4 and down. Even on the Hetzer. Tho the biggest issue is again balance vs caliber. German and US 105 derps had 150mm HEAT pen before. But was nerfed as it was "too strong" down to 101mm. Now Russians don't have 105mm derps. They have 122mm derps. And on tier 5 they have slower reload. But way more alpha an HE pen, and 140 HEAT pen with 370 alpha. That needs a slap tbh. And IMO the 105 derps has a way to fast ROF vs a full pen, vs the 76mm. As an 8 sec reload with 410 alpha is a bit short vs 115 alpha on 4 seconds.

 

5: For most TD's a camo nerf won't change much. The max value even with vegetation is still 80%. And even if you nerf the likes of the T67 down to 14%. It will just punish new players with bad crews and no camo knowledge vs padders. As that forest still gives 50% pr bush. And 14% base stacked with camo net, crew skills and directives will kick that high enough to make him annoying still. 



eldrak #6 Posted 05 June 2019 - 01:16 PM

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Can't say I disagree with any of your points. Good post!

 

Would like some extra hp on tier 7 too though, especially on some of the TDs.



onderschepper #7 Posted 05 June 2019 - 01:28 PM

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The upcoming Crew Books could remedy some of these problems for newer players, allowing them to fast track through the initial training and some Perks/ Skills at no expense. Thereafter the random drops in Rewards for Merit and purchase ability in the store can be used at their discretion to progress the Crews further.

 

https://worldoftanks...5-1-crew-books/

 

Due to spending four years grinding Crew Skills on my PS4 Account, I do not welcome this change as I feel it benefits new players whilst alienating older players who poured time and effort into developing their Crews, but one must roll with the times.



Robbie_T #8 Posted 05 June 2019 - 01:39 PM

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Seal clubbing need to stop.

Send the new people to a special server...where they all can play and discover the game without some low life wannna bee unicum seal clubbing there.

 

And there a lot of seal clubbers 2 weeks ago i met one

Talking to me after battle that he so good with his 49.3%winrate....and i only have 48.8.....

Check his profile most battles tier 2 and 3 with all seal clubbing tanks all played close to a 1000 battles....and he had 1 tier 8...

So i told him that he was a filthy seal clubber....he was silent

 

Everything with crew skills i am against.just grind it out and witth the crew boosters active its go's super fast.

 



vasilinhorulezz #9 Posted 05 June 2019 - 02:12 PM

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Or, you know, don't do it and actually put some thought in it. Like, make every shell unique and fulfill a different role in the battlefield. Finally implement overpenetration with at least 80% damage reduction, make rounds strong in different circumstances, like APCR actually lose a significant amount of penetration at distance, because right now even at 500 meters they still have more than AP, make HEAT lose a lot more penetration when they hit spaced armor and reduce auto bounce angle from 85o to 80o, standardize penetration for every tier, to a maximum of 320mm for tier 10 TDs, make weakspots actually weak, and give flanking opportunities to all maps to counter the super heavy meta, you know a decent effort to balance the game properly.

TungstenHitman #10 Posted 05 June 2019 - 02:43 PM

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I think mid tier heavy tanks get a real bad deal and should be limited to +- 1 tier along with some needing a little view range buff. Problem with heavy tanks is, anything under tier9 is typically going to be vs higher tier tanks and sadly that removes any armor/hp advantage and point for playing them in the first place. Vs same tier tanks, heavy tanks generally have armor that can be worked and more hp so if nothing else, can simply out last a non heavy tank in a fire fight by tanking shots and having more hp to play around with. This all goes out the window even vs +1 tier and certainly vs +2 tier opposition in which medium tanks start to get the same level of armor and firepower only the guns handle and reload much better and they have camo and mobility and view range too making your bottom tier heavy tank a complete steaming pile of cow dung and little more than a hp pinata. So while giving T1-T8 heavy tanks +-1 tier pref MM and a little view range buff would still be a bit challenging, at least it would be a viable class most the time. As it stands now, they're nothing more than a grind to go suffer through to get to tier9, with the exception of a small few. 

Edited by TungstenHitman, 05 June 2019 - 02:44 PM.


tajj7 #11 Posted 05 June 2019 - 03:13 PM

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View PostSteve8066, on 05 June 2019 - 09:41 AM, said:

biggest problem i had when starting and going thru the low tiers was none of what you listed, it was the machine-gun tanks. they completely ruined low tiers for me.

 

With regards to your final point about nerfing camo across all tiers inc. premiums, you cant nerf premiums without WG getting dragged into legal problems.

 

Lower tier machine guns are probably dealt with by the HP change and more generally tanks need balancing better which is just a given.

 

But I'd say these days players will progress through tier 1-3 a lot quicker, you even get given a tier 5 if you do some missions. 

 

So I'd say 4-6 is probably where most new players progress to when they start to be lost, as its where the grind starts to slow down. 

 

View PostBalc0ra, on 05 June 2019 - 11:12 AM, said:

1: You don't want it to be too big. As then you just end up like low tiers on Blitz after they did it. It will punish people less for mistakes, as they live longer. So when you get to tier 6 and the HP vs alpha is balanced differently. They suffer more for it, as their old way of yoloing for suddenly did not work anymore. And they die faster.

 

Yeh agree but I don't think that is too big and I was including to tier 6 as well, tier 7 might need some adjustments as well so the step up in HP is still there. 

 

2: Simple fix for that is just to get the protective MM back. As there also are people that only play tier 1 to 3, just as there are people that only play tier 8 to X. So just get the old protective MM back. Set it for tier 1 to 3, and for anyone with less then say 2 to 3K games. As before when we had this, the MM took 2-4 players with less then 2500 battles into normal MM. But never took players with more then 2500 into the "protected games". Thus new players faced new players more then they a guy with 10K games in this Pz II. And ofc some days there won't be enough players to get games going. So having a few bot players on low tier protected games only is not the worst idea either.

 

I don't think tier 2-3 is the problem, players will get through that quick anyway and won't notice the sealclubbers, the hard core stats padders are at tier s 4 and 5 IMO, in like Hetzers, T67s, Pz B2s etc. 

 

3: Look to console. They have 6th sense split into two. One for everyone by default. But it's more delayed, and not at the center of the screen. It's just a "spotted warning" at the side. The skill lets you know faster. A better option atm would be ofc to reward more 100% crew with 1 skill at lower tiers for new players only via the new player missions sets they currently have, or just the commander with a zero skill 6th sense for any tank they want a few times. Vs just the 100% base crew on tier 1 tanks.

 

Could work, you could also just give everyone an endless supply of sixth sense directives, so those who trained the skill would have a quicker version but everyone basically has it. 

 

More missions for trained up crews I think would be good anyway, even without the sixth sense issue. 

 

4: Tbh any SPG with a 150mm gun on higher on tier 6 and down needs a slap. Russia has way to many on low tiers. And even the German Bison that's the only tier 3 with stun. And ofc the US tier 6. The lower calibers are fine, or underpowered like the 304. As having 304's vs M44 on the teams is a bit nasty when you see your SPG hit for 50 damage, and theirs for 400. 

 

Bishop is low calibre though, still has an OP WR curve. 

 

But as for derps? Again look to Blitz. They removed derps on tier 4 and down. Even on the Hetzer. Tho the biggest issue is again balance vs caliber. German and US 105 derps had 150mm HEAT pen before. But was nerfed as it was "too strong" down to 101mm. Now Russians don't have 105mm derps. They have 122mm derps. And on tier 5 they have slower reload. But way more alpha an HE pen, and 140 HEAT pen with 370 alpha. That needs a slap tbh. And IMO the 105 derps has a way to fast ROF vs a full pen, vs the 76mm. As an 8 sec reload with 410 alpha is a bit short vs 115 alpha on 4 seconds.

 

Still think nerfing alpha is a better solution than nerfing DPM, because you need to remove the one shot ability.

 

Its like the FV4005 changes, yeh it nerfed the tank and less will be seen but really the problem is the alpha and that is still there. 

 

5: For most TD's a camo nerf won't change much. The max value even with vegetation is still 80%. And even if you nerf the likes of the T67 down to 14%. It will just punish new players with bad crews and no camo knowledge vs padders. As that forest still gives 50% pr bush. And 14% base stacked with camo net, crew skills and directives will kick that high enough to make him annoying still. 

 

I think it would help.

 

I'd say more generally the 1.0 HD bushes need toning down in camo value across all maps, but many lower tier TDs have such good camo that they can sit in the open and shoot people still unseen. 

 

View Posteldrak, on 05 June 2019 - 12:16 PM, said:

Can't say I disagree with any of your points. Good post!

 

Would like some extra hp on tier 7 too though, especially on some of the TDs.

 

Yeh probably tier 7 might need some slight adjustment as well. 



The_Naa #12 Posted 05 June 2019 - 04:00 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 05 June 2019 - 10:30 AM, said:

 

2. Fix the stats padder/seal clubber problem. 

 
I feel this is a massive one, the amount of clubbing going on at like tiers 3,4,5 is massive. I know there is newbie protection at very low tiers but I think this needs extending, if possible, to at least tier 5, maybe even tier 6.
 
The amount of people I was meeting in battles with 5k, 7k, 10k, in some cases even 15k battles in the same tank or handful of tanks (and we all know what tanks) was disgusting, people who could barely manage 50% win rates at tiers 8-10, were pushing 65-75% WRs in these tanks.
 
I can only imagine how disheartened new players must be to get their behinds handed to them on a plate by these players, only to click on their records to see these guys have 30, 40, 50, 70k plus battles. I reckon these sort of players are responsible for loads of players leaving the game early on. 
 
My suggestion would be basically to draw some sort of line in the sand and say if you have say 10k battles or more and you play tier 5 and under, then you only face other people with that level of experience. 
 
Of course it would depend on queues, available players etc. so the MM might have to make adjustments depending on population and it might not be an option on smaller servers, but I think it could be more than doable on the EU and RU servers, especially at peak time.
 
Let the newbs have a bit of breathing space, not get clubbed to death by experienced players, I don't think protecting them at like tier 2 is good enough. You can't learn the game at tier 2, the game only really starts to develop at tiers 4 and 5, its where you get heavies, armour starts to play more of a role, classes diversify a bit more, the machine guns are pretty much gone.
 
I also realise you wouldn't stop rerolls etc. but I still think it would help, and at least with rerolls (or invite accounts like me etc.) they are not packed full of 6 skill crews, bond equipment etc. that the experience seal clubbers are running.

 

No to this one.

 

if you deny tier 1-5 after 10K games it forces F2P players to either grind free XP slowly or force them to buy Gold and convert free XP if a new line is introduced or they player already have to 10k games and they would like to start playing Swedish tanks as they got a new mediums.

 

denying historical tanks that are in tier 1-5 because reasons would kill the fun and enjoyment for those play them purely because of historical elements or looks.

there used to be a way to get a round this ^ tho    it was called a fail platoon.

if tanks like PZ.2, PZ.3, PZ.4, Marder 2, Stug 3, Wespe, T-26, BT-2 BT-7, T-34, KV-1, M5 Stuart, M4 Sherman, M8A1 Scott, Wolverine M3 Lee/Grant, FT-1, B1, Matilda, Valentine, Churchill, Ha-Go, Chi-Ha. to name a few.  would be denied from me simply because i know how to play the game i would start a smurf account every time i cant play low tier tanks just because im too good.

 

There are few solutions to this problem that:

 

1. Skill based MM ( somebody suggested this already. )

2. Buffing tier 1-5 tanks to higher tiers ( Marder 2 tier 6, Stug 3 Tier 7 and so on to avoid hurting seals. )

3. Actually trying to balance low tier tanks. ( im not hurt by this as i would still play them regardless )

4. Giving new players to access to all tiers immediately ( not such a good idea IK, but im ready to agree to this if it means i can keep playing low tier tanks that i love. )

5. Teaching new players everything in Bootcamp ( they could be given a choice to skip them if you are worried about a boring tutorials )

 

some of the new players will learn from seal clubbers by watching them play, i have learned many things by spectating good players studying how they play. i still learn new stuff from time to time. 

i was at 4000 games in that you should wiggle your tank to avoid enemy to hit your weak spots.

at 5000 games in i learned that you should back away 15m from a bush before firing, ( i asked the player who was doing this the first time i saw this why he kept going backwards before firing and he was kind enough to tell/teach me :) )

and 2 days ago i learned that spall liners don't really work or make a noticeable difference against HE shells and oh boy do i have spall liners installed in my heavy tanks, i have had 22 heavy tanks so far and 19 of them have/had spall liners on them. and i still have 15 spall liners installed in heavy tanks atm. i need to buy more gold to dismount and sell them.

so good players being in low tier games can be a good thing. i myself have to thank a lot of clubbers because they did stuff that i did not know.


Edited by The_Naa, 09 June 2019 - 10:59 AM.


Balc0ra #13 Posted 05 June 2019 - 04:50 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 05 June 2019 - 03:13 PM, said:

 

Bishop is low calibre though, still has an OP WR curve. 

 

But he lacks the mobility to use it effectively most maps due to the short range. So more situational OP vs constantly broken. Then again the 304 with the same gun one tier up has mobility. But most matches he is 100% useless due to the low HE pen and doing sub 50 damage all the time vs the M44 pr shot, even in a +2 game. 

 

View Posttajj7, on 05 June 2019 - 03:13 PM, said:

I don't think tier 2-3 is the problem, players will get through that quick anyway and won't notice the sealclubbers, the hard core stats padders are at tier s 4 and 5 IMO, in like Hetzers, T67s, Pz B2s etc.

 

Depends. As most play low tiers vs tier rushing too. So with a bad crew etc. They will struggle more if they stick around to grind or learn the game. Tier 5 don't need protection as such. As then it would be "skilled" based MM would it not?



iuytr #14 Posted 08 June 2019 - 11:38 PM

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Adding a few more maps to the lower tier rotation would certainly make the game more interesting. Province would be awesome in Tier 2/3 tanks! Though I can see the WoT business model wanting people to go up the tiers asap and start spending money.

LordMuffin #15 Posted 08 June 2019 - 11:46 PM

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View Postonderschepper, on 05 June 2019 - 01:28 PM, said:

The upcoming Crew Books could remedy some of these problems for newer players, allowing them to fast track through the initial training and some Perks/ Skills at no expense. Thereafter the random drops in Rewards for Merit and purchase ability in the store can be used at their discretion to progress the Crews further.

 

https://worldoftanks...5-1-crew-books/

 

Due to spending four years grinding Crew Skills on my PS4 Account, I do not welcome this change as I feel it benefits new players whilst alienating older players who poured time and effort into developing their Crews, but one must roll with the times.

As a player with 50k players on PC WoT, I wouldn't have any issues with 6th sense being implemented as  skill all commanders with 100% primary skill learns.

Nor would I care much about crew training books anyway. 

22:47 Added after 1 minute
And yes, arty and derp guns are way to good at T5 and low tier arty.

Fighto #16 Posted 09 June 2019 - 01:25 AM

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It's far to easy for a player to play randoms in a  higher tier tank when he can't play at tier 1. A co-op system like WOWS needs to be introduced.  I'm just out of a game with a player in a tier 10 LT, he drove 7.9km in the battle, no spots, no damage nothing.

ExclamationMark #17 Posted 09 June 2019 - 01:46 AM

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Exactly what is the point of these posts? Too much free time on your hands?



Tom_Deekanarry #18 Posted 09 June 2019 - 10:01 AM

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Get rid of derp guns under tier VI

Tigerfish_Torpedo #19 Posted 09 June 2019 - 10:52 AM

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View Posttajj7, on 05 June 2019 - 10:30 AM, said:

2. Fix the stats padder/seal clubber problem. 

 
I feel this is a massive one, the amount of clubbing going on at like tiers 3,4,5 is massive. I know there is newbie protection at very low tiers but I think this needs extending, if possible, to at least tier 5, maybe even tier 6.

 

See, I disagree with this one.

 

From my personal perspective (and you know the 'haters [are] gonna hate' what I'm about to type); I often (all too often) find lower skilled players throwing games away at higher tiers (where I'd personally prefer to play). They say that they 'play for fun', and that 'stats don't matter to them' (as some form of disclaimer for playing like morons, and despite it mattering to those of us that need to suffer the indignity of their inability to carry a game). I, therefore, often drop to tiers 2, 3 and 4 to pad my stats back up to where they were beforehand, on whatever given day. If you truly consider it seal-clubbing at low tiers, then I offer the following defence... 'I'm playing for fun.'

 

If these players can mess up my game at higher tiers, I can mess up theirs at lower tiers. Simples (flame away, boys!) :P 



nakkipeppu #20 Posted 09 June 2019 - 11:36 AM

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View Posttajj7, on 05 June 2019 - 11:30 AM, said:

*snip*

 

I'm not going to quote or reply to any of the points, since there's no arguing them.

 

You are pretty much spot on regarding pretty much everything here, if the goal is to make low tiers like tier 10. Whether that is a good thing or not, is a matter of opinion however. I think the game's original design is smart in a sense (and part of why it's popular), that you can offer wildly different gameplay experiences and cater to a lot of types of players, when you have a bunch of different tiers and tank classes. Don't enjoy a class, tank or a tier ? "Don't play X" is the solution devs have been offering since the beginning and it more or less works. 

 

<personal opinion>

 

I find high tiers incredibly boring exactly because of a lot of things you mentioned - time to kill is much longer, and there's just a lot less room in a map, due to higher view ranges and worse camo values. The gameplay style is different, and I just like the chaotic demolition derby - I've grown on faster paced first person shooters - getting killed fast doesn't really bother me a lot, and neither does getting randomly bombed to pieces. Also, I think the higher the tiers you go, the tanks become kind of similar, they have less critical flaws, and their performance is sort of similar. At 4-7, there are bunch of tanks that are absolutely unlike anything else, and they feel more unique and have more character to them, but this is purely subjective matter.

 

You're absolutely correct that it's a really rough ride to start playing and it hurts the game, and I think a lot of it comes down to the whole "Fix stat padder / seal clubber problem" ...

 

... but you probably should frame this differently. There's bunch of perfectly legit reasons to play lower tiers - crew training, making credits, doing missions, or just wanting to play with some particular tank that makes you feel fuzzy for whatever reason that could be down to reading too many Commando comics as a kid, or playing too much Steel Panthers or whatever. Object 123 necessarily doesn't just have the same appeal as T-34 - for example, I love the look and feel of WW2 tanks, and that's what drew me in to the game and the feeling never subsided.

 

</opinion>

 

But all this is incredibly unfair for new players, and a lot of it boils down to crew skills. First obvious thing is lack of sixth sense, which you covered - that skill makes such a huge difference in game, that the ones that have it and ones that don't might as well be playing different game altogether. Giving this to all crews (I liked the earlier "if radioman is alive, you have it" suggestion) would just do away with bunch of "I'm getting randomly shot up by invisible tanks and I don't know what to do" problems new players face. Without 6th sense there's no feedback on what and when you did wrong, and it's really hard to learn anything.

 

Second is the incredible difference in crew performance between 50% crew, 75% crew, 100% crew and 100% crew with one full skill.

 

I don't think it's a problem if somebody rolls a 5 skill crew in low tiers per se, but it's a problem when they roll it against players with no skills. New player doesn't really understand the importance of crew skills / training, somebody with 500 games and multiple tank lines could very well be rocking crews with 80-90% primary skill in every one of them and nothing else, providing that they bothered to retrain / buy crews with credits in the first place. There's really nothing in game that screams "this is important, pay attention to this and plan ahead" regarding crew skills - and when you look at the price - 20k per crew member for 90% retraining or 75% fresh crewmember, it might be really hard to even explain why you shouldn't be taking the free option, and instead pay 100k credits (which I think is a price of entire tier4 tank), or blow cash on it, instead of say, premium account or a premium tank. You can absolutely mangle your chances of getting good crews buy making questionable choices in beginning, and crew is just about the only thing in the game where you can destroy your own progress through clicking on the buttons (apart from careless selling of tanks or destroying mounted equipment).

 

How to fix this ? Give everybody sixth sense free, and redesign the impact of primary skills effect on tank. Nobody needs to have enemies that have -25% hit on *everything* their tank does - this is like having new players start the game permanently stunned. Or maybe adjust the xp requirements of gaining skills in the beginning, so that 100% primary skill (and why not first skill) can be reached much faster. If this needs to come with compensation on existing crews - sure, just slap 100k xp on each crew member, it makes absolutely no difference for crews at 2-3 skills, but is fair.

 

Once the crew skills start to pile up, there's really no difference, difference between one full skill and two isn't really meaningful when compared to zero to 1 skills.

 

Equipment is kinda problematic - it would require a lot of redesign, either by making it cheaper (again, the prices are ridiculous compared to a price of say, tier 4 or 5 tank. Good luck getting a new player to spend 500k on optics), or being able to research/buy equipment on that tank at discounted rate, at a price of that equipment being tied to that tank only. Researched the top gun for a, say, tier 4 tank ? Now you unlocked the option to research, say, for 2k xp, and buy for 20k credits a rammer *for that gun* that gives -10% reload time and takes your equipment slot. This would drive the point of the importance of eq for new players, and be still available at manageable price.

 

But I don't think the eq is the first thing to fix, you lose 10% of reload time without a rammer, you lose 25% of reload time if you bought the free crew training option.

 

There's very likely stuff to fix and tweak regarding derp guns, hp pools and whatnot, but the crew skill disparity and lack of 6th sense is probably the #1 thing that's wrong with lower tiers. Everything starts to look different when suddenly the enemies start spotting you when you fire at them, will fire (and actually) hit back, or don't just wander in to the open to get shot up because a beep and light bulb told them "this is a bad idea".


Edited by nakkipeppu, 09 June 2019 - 11:39 AM.





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