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What's Wrong With The Current Premium Ammo?


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TungstenHitman #1 Posted 05 June 2019 - 12:41 PM

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Hi all, 

 

just looking for an insight into what brought this revision into play? What's wrong with the current system, I just don't see the problem? APCR bounces like a mother focher off anything even slightly angled, HEAT gets eaten by tracks, spaced armor and hits off guns along with generally being a much slower shell so... and they all cost a lot of credits which if someone was to really spam, would almost certainly need to run a premium account and play some down time battles to build up stacks, so I don't really get the problem. You also have ammo such as HE which unlike premium, almost always does damage or something nasty to a tank and its crew or if vs something it can pen, up to 40% more damage than standard or premium ammo and HE is just as cheap or cheaper than regular ammo so... explain?  



Aimless #2 Posted 05 June 2019 - 12:47 PM

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The problem? It is too cheap, and not restricted to be used by members of teh Dinger clans. Must be addressed already!

Cobra6 #3 Posted 05 June 2019 - 12:50 PM

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It wasn't making WG enough money (indirectly) so it needs changing, regardless of if it's detrimental to game balancing in the long term.

 

Cobra 6



Zylon0 #4 Posted 05 June 2019 - 01:15 PM

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Because it is limited by spending and being labeled pay 2 win finally caught up with WOT,

as because of this stigma they have a hard time gaining and retaining new players.

It is a relic from a time long past, where such practices where deemed acceptable by the player base.

 

If you pay enough you can fire gold rounds / premium ammo exclusively and have an edge over your opponent at all times.

Thus pay to win.

 

Customers are not stupid nowadays. (well less stupid) 

Other similar games like advanced warfare and war thunder (tanks) showed that having different kind of shells works fine without the pay to win aspect.

Where every player has access to the same shells and shells have advantages and disadvantages.

 

Where WOT current pre reworked premium ammo, has no downsides. (besides heat getting stuck on objects on the way to the target)

In tanks dot gg you can see heat and apcr premium shells have a clear advantage over normal shells despite normalization due to much higher pen.

 

The backlash to the pay to win stigma is why they are changing the mechanics of the "other" shells.

WG already experimented in WOT blitz where premium shells do 30% less pen and in World of warships, where premium rounds are no where to be found entirely.

 

A nice bonus from this premium rounds re balance is that armor will actually mean something again. (as it should)

Adjustments will be made over time as feedback comes in.. hopefully in the form of map reworks.

 

Its not just shells that will change, damage on normal shells will increase and hit points on tanks will increase.

Making the 25-30% less damage on premium rounds feel even more significant.

 

With the rework you now have 3 choices.

 

1: Aim for weak spots with normal shells or flip a coin and test your luck on a not sure to pen armor location (orange marker)

2: Fire HE that will do less, but guaranteed damage.

3: Fire a less damaging premium round that has a higher chance to pen, but can still bounce and do less damage.

 

Before the rework we had 1 choice.

Be a peasant without paying, firing normal shells and always be at a disadvantage

or you pay for premium rounds and have an advantage over everyone that does not pay.

 

For me personally this whole change to premium rounds mechanics will be one big buff to my game play.

Reason being that ever since Beta I refused to be part of the pay to win problem and only fired normal shells in all my WOT battles.

As a result this at times made me lose, but this handicap also made me a much better player.

 

As soon as this patch hits the live servers you will all be brought down to my level.

Welcome...

 

 


Edited by Zylon0, 05 June 2019 - 01:20 PM.


Dava_117 #5 Posted 05 June 2019 - 01:19 PM

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The problem is that shooting premium ammo only has few to none drawbacks compared by firing standard shells. It just cost more. And cost is not a balancing factor is you can buy ingame money for real one.

15JG52Brauer #6 Posted 05 June 2019 - 01:29 PM

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As I posted in the other thread about this: I think a lot of the problem people have still derives from the fact that prem or special ammo is balanced by it's cost - therefore to a free to play player it is too expensive to use frequentley and they see it as a pay to win bonus for those with prem accounts or deep pockets/fort knox packages. Unfortunateley  it looks like WG have this idea of it being more expensive set in stone - so it will still be seen as pay to win :-(  As a long term premium account user who also plays frontlines and gets clan boosters I can afford to fire it in the right circumstances when a f2p player might not - and by definition that gives me an advantage because I have paid for a prem account- but I would be happy if the playing field was levelled and WG found some other way to give a drawback to firing prem ammo such as this lower damage potential compared to normal rounds - we already get lots of nice bonuses from a prem account - why should we get an advantage in what ammo we can afford to fire? 

Geno1isme #7 Posted 05 June 2019 - 01:39 PM

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View PostDava_117, on 05 June 2019 - 02:19 PM, said:

The problem is that shooting premium ammo only has few to none drawbacks compared by firing standard shells. It just cost more. And cost is not a balancing factor is you can buy ingame money for real one.

 

This. On tanks like the S-Conq or AMX 50b the regular AP ammunition is completely obsolete unless you want to save some credits (or are an idealist), as the APCR has practically zero disadvantages compared with AP. Yes, it has less normalization and more penetration loss over distance, but those differences are so minimal compared to the penetration gain that they are completely irrelevant. And on tanks that have AP/AP or APCR/APCR even those minimal differences are missing.

 

Or the most obvious example, the old Type 5 derp gun: Spend more credits to literally and automatically get more damage. Same thing with arties to a lesser degree.

 

With HEAT at least there are some significant differences in mechanics to consider, but even there it's not all negative and the massive penetration increase makes it a no-brainer in many cases.

 

And HE is a completely different beast.

 

View Post15JG52Brauer, on 05 June 2019 - 02:29 PM, said:

Unfortunateley  it looks like WG have this idea of it being more expensive set in stone

 

Well, they can't just remove that aspect as this would cause havoc to their monetization. They'd have to first come up with a new continuous credit sink, or people will reduce their investments in premium content.


Edited by Geno1isme, 05 June 2019 - 01:42 PM.


Yaccay #8 Posted 05 June 2019 - 01:56 PM

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The current premium ammo is better than the normal one.

WG balanced premium ammo by its (much) higher price.

 

Now WG tries to make the premium ammo not simple the same or better at every aspect, but different.

Some aspects of the premium ammo will better some will be worse.

For example: better penetration but worse damage.

 



vasilinhorulezz #9 Posted 05 June 2019 - 02:02 PM

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The problem is that Maus and Type 5 are not strong enough, apparently.

onderschepper #10 Posted 05 June 2019 - 02:09 PM

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The paradigm shift - In days gone by the majority of such users spent a modest amount of money to have a small reserve of highly effective ammo onboard (for example 10 rounds), which they would only deploy against foes who seemed to be impenetrable and after taking substantial blows themselves.

There were users who exclusively used such ammo but they were in the minority, and were usually flagged by a friendly and eliminated posthaste.

 

Nowadays they appear to be the primary ammo type for a vast proportion of users.



Propjesschieter #11 Posted 05 June 2019 - 02:15 PM

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View PostZylon0, on 05 June 2019 - 01:15 PM, said:

As a result this at times made me lose, but this handicap also made me a much better player.

 

Self-mockery! A good quality.

pecopad #12 Posted 05 June 2019 - 02:24 PM

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View Post15JG52Brauer, on 05 June 2019 - 01:29 PM, said:

As I posted in the other thread about this: I think a lot of the problem people have still derives from the fact that prem or special ammo is balanced by it's cost - therefore to a free to play player it is too expensive to use frequentley and they see it as a pay to win bonus for those with prem accounts or deep pockets/fort knox packages. Unfortunateley  it looks like WG have this idea of it being more expensive set in stone - so it will still be seen as pay to win :-(  As a long term premium account user who also plays frontlines and gets clan boosters I can afford to fire it in the right circumstances when a f2p player might not - and by definition that gives me an advantage because I have paid for a prem account- but I would be happy if the playing field was levelled and WG found some other way to give a drawback to firing prem ammo such as this lower damage potential compared to normal rounds - we already get lots of nice bonuses from a prem account - why should we get an advantage in what ammo we can afford to fire? 

 

This way of thinking, that the ones paying to play are firing premium rounds, makes absolutely no sense. You don't play premium tanks and fire premium rounds, what would be the point in grinding credits if you do that?

 

I think premium spam comes from the fact that many tanks just don't have the pen to do anything without premium ammo. How are you going to play without the top gun without the pen boost from prem ammo?

 

If they rebalance it, the gap between players is going to be bigger, also just on a final not to say that most of the good players in this game spam golden ammo and have full premium layouts, specially if they are playing for the 3rd mark.

 

The exponential gains we have on credits, also makes that good players can spam golden ammo and make credits, while an average player can't.

 

Just check who is spamming gold in tier V games.... most of the are the statpadders

 


Edited by pecopad, 05 June 2019 - 02:26 PM.


SuperOlsson #13 Posted 05 June 2019 - 02:28 PM

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I don't get it either, why complain about gold ammo when it's only like 25% of the problem? Nerfing it would only be a buff to tanks like super conqueror and 430u, which hardly is in need of buffs. And while you're getting angry by reading my post, please think a minute about why it would be a buff to the most OP tanks in todays meta.

breeeze #14 Posted 05 June 2019 - 02:34 PM

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No, HEAT isn't much slower, it's generally about as fast as AP and at close ranges the velocity doesn't matter anyways, doesn't get eaten by spaced armor to the degree that you suggest and usually has much much higher pen than AP/APCR to compensate.

No, APCR doesn't bounce off "anything even slightly angled", you'll have a hard time finding armor that you can hit at a very specific angle with a tank that doesn't have much of a gap between AP and APCR pen where AP will pen and APCR won't.

No, HE doesn't "always do damage", it is completely useless to fire from low caliber guns at anything with armor and even if a big HE shell hits armor it won't do very much unless you aim just right to splash into weak armor. The pre-nerf Type 5 needed 1400 alpha damage to make that HE work, and you'd need to splash below tanks or engine decks to get those 600+ rolls.

And the last point you made yourself, to spam all that premium ammo you need a premium account and premium tanks, or in other words you need to pay to win.

 

The sandbox idea is good and badly needed, it certainly needs additional tweaks and possibly some tanks need individual balance changes but the concept itself imo the best solution to the gold spam epidemic.



8126Jakobsson #15 Posted 05 June 2019 - 02:38 PM

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The problem is that we are still not firing enough of them. So now they think maybe we should give all tanks more hp so that it takes more special shots to kill them. Not bad idea, kamrat. 

FTR #16 Posted 05 June 2019 - 02:42 PM

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I don't get this change. The only thing they needed to do is to like limit prem ammo to 10%/15% of your total ammo count and we would see it way less than right now. You would actually have to plan usage of your prem ammo and not waste it.

 

What they did is stupid.


Edited by FTR, 05 June 2019 - 02:42 PM.


Pagon1s #17 Posted 05 June 2019 - 02:43 PM

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I dont see any problem as well. All these changes are requested by snowflake crybabies, who will cry even more when better players destroy them with regular higher alpha shells...

Edited by Pagon1s, 05 June 2019 - 02:45 PM.


Geno1isme #18 Posted 05 June 2019 - 02:49 PM

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View PostSuperOlsson, on 05 June 2019 - 03:28 PM, said:

I don't get it either, why complain about gold ammo when it's only like 25% of the problem? Nerfing it would only be a buff to tanks like super conqueror and 430u, which hardly is in need of buffs.

 

Of course it is only one aspect of the general imbalance issue. But it is one that could be easily mitigated (not solved!) by a simple database change that requires almost no effort on WGs side, and is very predictable (so IMO doesn't need any special testing at all). The aspects armor or maps are certainly just as significant, but addressing them does require a lot more effort.

 

And yes, obviously a global PM nerf will be a signifcant temporary buff for armored tanks. But (in theory at least) that would show the balance issues in a way that just can't be ignored by WG anymore. Hopefully even WG won't claim that a tank is balanced if it scores double the damage/winrate than its direct counterparts.



__Eric__ #19 Posted 05 June 2019 - 02:49 PM

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View Post8126Jakobsson, on 05 June 2019 - 01:38 PM, said:

The problem is that we are still not firing enough of them.

 

You sound like pretty good Dinger material ;)

Stevies_Team #20 Posted 05 June 2019 - 02:56 PM

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In my case premium misses as much as standard and I'm not too keen on digging potato patches at 5000 credits a pop all over a map

 

If WG introduces a shell that actually goes straight then give me a shout

 

Otherwise not really interested in gold ammo






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