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Special Ammo "rebalance" [ a simple proposal ]


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ValkyrionX #1 Posted 05 June 2019 - 04:57 PM

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Since it is the topic of the moment, after the Black Market event , I also wanted to give my contribution [as little as useful] on the question.

 

It will be short since I do not want to dwell on a situation that can be easily solved with some changes, and not as the WG is proposing out of any logic , on the sandbox server test.

 

 

 

 

directly from the sandbox forum , I copy / paste my thoughts :

 

 

 

"This test is absolutely out of logic.

Changing so much these parameters is pure madness, a buff beyond any measure of the heavy tanks and all the vehicles with high alpha dmg and a substantial nerf to all medium tanks, light tanks and moreover the arty are made even more useless given the radical changes to the vehicles HP

 

You have left the gold ammunition intact, you have increased the HP of all the tankss [the heavy ones benefit the most it seems obvious to me] and you have increased the damage of the standard ammunition

 

But what's the point?

Have you ever thought that it makes more sense to increase the penetration of standard ammunition without having to propose so many and important changes?

The difference in penetration in many tanks between standard and special ammunition is really high.

 

This test is absolutely useless from my point of view and does not solve anything, it increases problems and creates new ones, destroying the game because someone has to whine about the fact that he receives special ammunition on his tank seems to me ridiculous.

 

 

The solution is easier than you think:

 

 

  • increase the cost of special ammunition in terms of credits from +20/+25% 

[increasing the cost of special ammunition affects the economy of the game and over time leads the players to think about it more than once to shoot extremely expensive ammunition]

 

 

  • increase the penetration of standard ammunition of all vehicles from tier 1 to tier X and on all guns from +15% to +25%

[increasing the penetration of standard ammunition definitely increases their attractiveness compared to other types , tending to lead to playing less other types of more expensive ammunition, maximizing profit without sacrificing damage and competitiveness]

 

 

  • impose a limit in percentage (%) terms [in a way studied for each individual tank of the game] to prevent having too many "special ammunition" in the hold of the player's tank

[to reduce in percentage terms, the maximum allowed number of this type of ammunition in the hold of a tank would reduce its use as it significantly reduces the maximum number of special ammunition that each player can mount on each tank, otherwise you cannot access in the random battles if you mount too many special ammunition on the selected vehicle]

 

 

  • to reduce the damage of all the ammunition on those weakspots as small as the cupolas of the turrets etc , the entire integrity of a vehicle cannot be reduced to 0 by always shooting in such a small point that it does not represent the true integrity of the hull of a tank

[to reduce the damage of all ammunition when you shot to small weakspots [such as domes/cupolas etc etc] penetrate them cannot and must not represent the entire integrity of a tank]

 

 

  • decrease the damage of all explosive ammunition, since the HE spam seems to me more constant than the "spam" of special ammunition

[you are all worried about "gold" spam when, at least from my experience, explosive ammunition spam is becoming a much more urgent problem]

 

 

  • reduce shot after shot, the damage of special ammunition always fires on the same enemy tank [ first shot 100% alpha dmg | 2nd shot 90% of alpha dmg | 3rd shot 80% etc etc up to 65% of the alpha damage seems to me a more sensible proposal ]

[Decrease over time, shoot after shoot [but only in when you penetrate the enemy tank] , the damage of gold ammunition always fires on the same enemy target.
This decreases the damage in the time you can inflict on your opponent and makes standard ammunition more interesting again because of the lower credits price, their penetration buff and above all you tend not to waste them since you can mount a limited number in your tank hold and to use them only in the most critical situations and against really armored opponents
]"

 

 

 

Probably my idea is wrong , but always better than the crap that the WG is doing on the sandbox server in my opinion.

I think that with this series of tricks you could all be happier without so many game mechanics being affected so drastically , personally I am strongly convinced of what I wrote.

 

 

Convince me of the contrary.

 

 


Edited by ValkyrionX, 06 June 2019 - 12:27 AM.


vasilinhorulezz #2 Posted 05 June 2019 - 05:24 PM

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interesting, but I won't agree, t least on the most part, the point is, idiot proof tanks that cause more gold spam, i always carried around 10 rounds of premium ammo, and on most games I didn't even use one 2-3 years ago, now I've seen my self ending games shooting nothing but premium ammo, especially after the idiotic buffs to Type and Maus, where even a badly played and angled Maus can bounce other heavies like a boss, or (after the introduction of the derp gun) when you bounced of the Type 5s "weakspot" while he derped your turret front for 500 damage. Start with removing the premium ammo concept entirely, make weakspots actually weak, add better mechanics that will make each ammo type useful in different situations and finally implement overpenetration, so hitting weak armored tanks with high penetration will be less of a thing.

APCR right now, has no downsides over standard AP, because the penetration loss isn't significant at longer distances, and better shell velocity so they need less lead/aim, any tank that has APCR as premium has literally no reason to carry AP rounds. Lower the penetration a bit, make penetration loss significant, and now you have to choose which round is best suited for each circumstance.

HEAT rounds are supposed to be weak against spaced armor, but they are not weak enough, so make penetration loss after each layer of armor penetrated more significant, so now they need more careful aim to be effective, also, lower the auto bounce zone to 80o instead of 85o, and finally lower the penetration a bit, and boom the rounds are now more balanced.

Also take examples from how rounds work in real life, and even in other games to get some ideas, like HEAT ammunition, in real life is less effective in short distances. An other solution would be to give different dispersion values for each type of shell. Large caliber HEAT IRL were less accurate at long distance than kinetic energy rounds. In general a combination of these could give us more balanced ammunition types in game.

But, in conclusion, for me it should start by completely removing the concept of premium (or special, call it as you will) ammunition, and start rebalancing from there.



Zylon0 #3 Posted 05 June 2019 - 05:52 PM

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With your proposal in the end premium rounds would still outclass normal rounds.

Hence pay to win.



pecopad #4 Posted 05 June 2019 - 05:58 PM

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Interesting because I have more problems with the Full premium loadout of good players, usually chasing the 3rd mark, or statpadders in low tiers...

Bracciano_gatto #5 Posted 05 June 2019 - 06:21 PM

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Don't touch my HE rounds or eliminate the stupid frontal armor on some monsters.

 

And don't tell to learn to flank, we can't on MANY maps.



Trostani #6 Posted 05 June 2019 - 07:31 PM

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Block Quote

 

  • increase the cost of special ammunition in terms of credits from +20/+25% 

[increasing the cost of special ammunition affects the economy of the game and over time leads the players to think about it more than once to shoot extremely expensive ammunition]

 

 

Not possible because WG is scared when it comes to premium tanks nerfs.

 

Block Quote

 

  • increase the penetration of standard ammunition of all vehicles from tier 1 to tier X and on all guns from +15% to +25%

[increasing the penetration of standard ammunition definitely increases their attractiveness compared to other types , tending to lead to playing less other types of more expensive ammunition, maximizing profit without sacrificing damage and competitiveness]

 

This is absolutely stupid idea. Basically you are proposing to change standard ammo into current premium. This is worst thing that WG can do in current situation. 

 

Block Quote

 

  • to reduce the damage of all the ammunition on those weakspots as small as the cupolas of the turrets etc , the entire integrity of a vehicle cannot be reduced to 0 by always shooting in such a small point that it does not represent the true integrity of the hull of a tank

[to reduce the damage of all ammunition when you shot to small weakspots [such as domes/cupolas etc etc] penetrate them cannot and must not represent the entire integrity of a tank]

 

 This is actually very good idea.

 

Block Quote

  • decrease the damage of all explosive ammunition, since the HE spam seems to me more constant than the "spam" of special ammunition

[you are all worried about "gold" spam when, at least from my experience, explosive ammunition spam is becoming a much more urgent problem]

 

See point 1: Not possible because WG is scared when it comes to premium tanks nerfs.

 

Block Quote

 

  • reduce shot after shot, the damage of special ammunition always fires on the same enemy tank [ first shot 100% alpha dmg | 2nd shot 90% of alpha dmg | 3rd shot 80% etc etc up to 65% of the alpha damage seems to me a more sensible proposal ]

[Decrease over time, shoot after shoot , the damage of gold ammunition always fires on the same enemy target.
This decreases the damage in the time you can inflict on your opponent and makes standard ammunition more interesting again because of the lower credits price, their penetration buff and above all you tend not to waste them since you can mount a limited number in your tank hold and to use them only in the most critical situations and against really armored opponents
]"

 

Not sure if this would be effective or easy to code such thing correctly.

 



Cobra6 #7 Posted 05 June 2019 - 07:53 PM

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I do not like the idea of weakspots doing less damage then other parts of the tank for the simple fact that on many heavy tanks, the weakspots are already very hard to pen even with standard ammo (more armour then standard pen) so also decreasing the damage will only make heavy tanks more powerful, which is the absolute last thing this game needs.

 

Also, premium shells doing less damage each shot on the same tank is bad as with the current balancing, premium ammo is compulsory especially in the higher tiers due to all the rediculous over-armoring of tanks.

 

 

Personally I'd say limit premium ammo to 5%=>10% of the ammo capacity of the tank while at the same time rebalacing all armour to have viable frontal weakspots to same tier standard ammo.

 

Cobra 6



XPuntar #8 Posted 05 June 2019 - 08:03 PM

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This is not premium ammo rebalance at all!

 

Why not rather follow WoW Blitz and do something similar what was done there!

 

15%-20% damage reducation on premium shells and ... it "almost" done! Quite probably some tanks would need some "tweaks" here and there anyway!

 

It' is trully mindblowing what is Wargaming doing here because Blitz devs clearly stated that their decision (to lower damage on premim ammo by 15%) was quite probably based on some analitical study of damage data!


Edited by XPuntar, 05 June 2019 - 08:04 PM.


ValkyrionX #9 Posted 05 June 2019 - 11:49 PM

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View PostBracciano_gatto, on 05 June 2019 - 06:21 PM, said:

Don't touch my HE rounds or eliminate the stupid frontal armor on some monsters.

 

And don't tell to learn to flank, we can't on MANY maps.

 

I inform you that the HE will also be subject to future balances

 

View PostCobra6, on 05 June 2019 - 07:53 PM, said:

I do not like the idea of weakspots doing less damage then other parts of the tank for the simple fact that on many heavy tanks, the weakspots are already very hard to pen even with standard ammo (more armour then standard pen) so also decreasing the damage will only make heavy tanks more powerful, which is the absolute last thing this game needs.

 

Also, premium shells doing less damage each shot on the same tank is bad as with the current balancing, premium ammo is compulsory especially in the higher tiers due to all the rediculous over-armoring of tanks.

 

 

Personally I'd say limit premium ammo to 5%=>10% of the ammo capacity of the tank while at the same time rebalacing all armour to have viable frontal weakspots to same tier standard ammo.

 

Cobra 6

 

 

in fact, limiting in percentage terms the maximum number [of the total] of the special ammunition that can be used on a single tank in my opinion makes a lot of sense if combined with an increase in the penetration factor of standard ammunition of at least 10-15%, also increasing cost of special ammunition and by reducing the number that can be used in battle, the problem is basically solved easily

 

As for the damage to specific weakspots in my opinion it makes sense to reduce the damage for these small points [domes etc etc] as they do not represent the true integrity of the hull of a vehicle , obviously this requires a further balance in terms of armor on many vehicles [SQ, chieftain etc etc] 

 

I find my whole proposal very logical and sensible and I really can't understand the meaning of this sandbox test.

 

22:53 Added after 3 minutes

View PostXPuntar, on 05 June 2019 - 08:03 PM, said:

This is not premium ammo rebalance at all!

 

Why not rather follow WoW Blitz and do something similar what was done there!

 

15%-20% damage reducation on premium shells and ... it "almost" done! Quite probably some tanks would need some "tweaks" here and there anyway!

 

It' is trully mindblowing what is Wargaming doing here because Blitz devs clearly stated that their decision (to lower damage on premim ammo by 15%) was quite probably based on some analitical study of damage data!

 

reducing the damage is of no use if you don't have a numeric limit to the total amount of ammunition you can use in the game.

Reducing the damage after every single shot [losing a percentage of damage after each special hit went to penetrate an enemy tank] makes sense as well as limiting the percentage of special shots you can use on a tank.

 

Limiting only the damage % is a buff to all the heavy tanks of the game.



Zylon0 #10 Posted 06 June 2019 - 12:00 AM

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View PostCobra6, on 05 June 2019 - 06:53 PM, said:

I do not like the idea of weakspots doing less damage then other parts of the tank for the simple fact that on many heavy tanks, the weakspots are already very hard to pen even with standard ammo (more armour then standard pen) so also decreasing the damage will only make heavy tanks more powerful, which is the absolute last thing this game needs.

 

Also, premium shells doing less damage each shot on the same tank is bad as with the current balancing, premium ammo is compulsory especially in the higher tiers due to all the rediculous over-armoring of tanks.

 

 

Personally I'd say limit premium ammo to 5%=>10% of the ammo capacity of the tank while at the same time rebalacing all armour to have viable frontal weakspots to same tier standard ammo.

 

Cobra 6

 

Why would you even need premium ammo if in your suggestion all tanks have weakspots?

Why would that ammo even have to be "premium" why not a different shell for the same cost as standard ammo with different parameters? (like for instance in war thunder)

 

Also some tanks are so slow and sluggish that giving them obvious frontal weakspots would make them obsolete.

 

Yet some tanks that have an obvious weakspot on top of their tank that is hard to hide for instance the Object 268 v4 still get complained about for heaving to much armor. 

(weakspot is 230 to 246 effective armor) As well as a lower front plate that is thin, but only has 217 effective armor.


Edited by Zylon0, 06 June 2019 - 12:06 AM.


ValkyrionX #11 Posted 06 June 2019 - 12:00 AM

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View PostTrostani, on 05 June 2019 - 07:31 PM, said:

 

Not possible because WG is scared when it comes to premium tanks nerfs.

 

 

This is absolutely stupid idea. Basically you are proposing to change standard ammo into current premium. This is worst thing that WG can do in current situation. 

 

 

 This is actually very good idea.

 

 

See point 1: Not possible because WG is scared when it comes to premium tanks nerfs.

 

 

Not sure if this would be effective or easy to code such thing correctly.

 

 

increase the penetration of standard ammunition in my opinion makes a lot of sense, if a tank with AP penetrates 100mm at 100 meters with a 20% buff it would penetrate 120mm at 100 meters and it seems like a nice gain, which is absolutely not comparable to the penetration level which should have a special blow


I believe instead that increasing the penetration [not too much] of standard shots, increasing the cost of special ammo and limiting the maximum number for the hold ammunition of the tank that you want to use and above all: decreasing the damage over time after each penetration of gold fired, this type of ammunition would be drastically reduced over time.

 

who cares about premium tanks, it seems to me a logic solution and makes much more sense than the madness set up in the sandbox server

23:03 Added after 2 minutes

View PostZylon0, on 06 June 2019 - 12:00 AM, said:

 

Why would you even need premium ammo if in your suggestion all tanks have weakspots?

Why would that ammo even have to be "premium" why not a different shell for the same cost as standard ammo with different parameters? (like for instance in war thunder)

 

Also some tanks are so slow and sluggish that giving them obvious frontal weakspots would make them obsolete.

 

last-minute news, all the tanks in the game have weakspots

 

the problem lies in the fact that they are so thick in terms of mm that standard ammunition is often not enough in certain situations , which is why increasing the penetration of standard ammunition, taking into account what I propose in all points, makes it sensible



Gremlin182 #12 Posted 06 June 2019 - 12:03 AM

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You propose a rather complex idea some of which might work some which imo could not.

 

I will start with the one that could not possibly work and that is limiting the damage that parts of a tank can take.

If I understand you correctly continually shooting a cupola cannot destroy a tank.

You do not go into what % damage say the commanders cupola could take but in any case its unworkable.

 

Suppose someone shoots the cupola of a tank and the damage done is the maximum that location can take.

They fire another shot and it does presumably nothing.

This player may realise this and begin aiming elsewhere.

 

No one else knows this though, So I come along and fire at the same spot and do zero damage.

I am thinking Did I actually hit if so did I pen but most of all what the heck is going on.

Am I supposed to start shooting all the weak spots till I find one that will still take damage.

 

Meanwhile this tank is just shooting me to bits



ValkyrionX #13 Posted 06 June 2019 - 12:06 AM

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View PostGremlin182, on 06 June 2019 - 12:03 AM, said:

You propose a rather complex idea some of which might work some which imo could not.

 

I will start with the one that could not possibly work and that is limiting the damage that parts of a tank can take.

If I understand you correctly continually shooting a cupola cannot destroy a tank.

You do not go into what % damage say the commanders cupola could take but in any case its unworkable.

 

Suppose someone shoots the cupola of a tank and the damage done is the maximum that location can take.

They fire another shot and it does presumably nothing.

This player may realise this and begin aiming elsewhere.

 

No one else knows this though, So I come along and fire at the same spot and do zero damage.

I am thinking Did I actually hit if so did I pen but most of all what the heck is going on.

Am I supposed to start shooting all the weak spots till I find one that will still take damage.

 

Meanwhile this tank is just shooting me to bits

 

 "first shot 100% alpha dmg | 2nd shot 90% of alpha dmg | 3rd shot 80% etc etc up to 65% of the alpha damage seems to me a more sensible proposal "

 

 

the damage is reduced over time, but is not reduced to 0

 

it would be foolish not to receive damage from a penetration, but to reduce it since a dome cannot represent the total integrity of a vehicle. I think it makes a lot of sense



Zylon0 #14 Posted 06 June 2019 - 12:06 AM

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View PostValkyrionX, on 05 June 2019 - 11:00 PM, said:

 

increase the penetration of standard ammunition in my opinion makes a lot of sense, if a tank with AP penetrates 100mm at 100 meters with a 20% buff it would penetrate 120mm at 100 meters and it seems like a nice gain, which is absolutely not comparable to the penetration level which should have a special blow


I believe instead that increasing the penetration [not too much] of standard shots, increasing the cost of special ammo and limiting the maximum number for the hold ammunition of the tank that you want to use and above all: decreasing the damage over time after each penetration of gold fired, this type of ammunition would be drastically reduced over time.

 

who cares about premium tanks, it seems to me a logic solution and makes much more sense than the madness set up in the sandbox server

23:03 Added after 2 minutes

 

last-minute news, all the tanks in the game have weakspots

 

the problem lies in the fact that they are so thick in terms of mm that standard ammunition is often not enough in certain situations , which is why increasing the penetration of standard ammunition, taking into account what I propose in all points, makes it sensible

 

Cost should never be a balancing factor, as paying would nullify that drawback, creating pay to win.

ValkyrionX #15 Posted 06 June 2019 - 12:12 AM

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View PostZylon0, on 06 June 2019 - 12:06 AM, said:

 

Cost should never be a balancing factor, as paying would nullify that drawback, creating pay to win.

 

paying a special ammo [example] of my M60 (today) 4800 credits or 5760 [+20%] does not make the game p2w

 

 

Simply induce you to think twice before using the gold ammunition, as you have a limited number of them , hit after hit , penetration after penetration, their damage decreases and above all you have received a slight penetration buff at the standard ammunition that basically goes to counterbalance the tanks more armored in the game

 

the game becomes p2w if I go on the premium shot and buy a gun that shot every 6 seconds and does 500 damage and that I can mount it on my m60..this is p2w, not what you say


Edited by ValkyrionX, 06 June 2019 - 12:13 AM.


Gremlin182 #16 Posted 06 June 2019 - 12:14 AM

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View PostValkyrionX, on 06 June 2019 - 12:06 AM, said:

 

 "first shot 100% alpha dmg | 2nd shot 90% of alpha dmg | 3rd shot 80% etc etc up to 65% of the alpha damage seems to me a more sensible proposal "

 

 

the damage is reduced over time, but is not reduced to 0

 

it would be foolish not to receive damage from a penetration, but to reduce it since a dome cannot represent the total integrity of a vehicle. I think it makes a lot of sense

 

It could do but really it could only apply to a cupola and I admit to having considered the idea in the past bqack then I just wanted the shell to actually blow the cupola off so it was apparent it was not there any more.

 

Couldn't work with any weak spot that has another part of the tank behind it like a vision slit or MG port.

So the mini turret on the KV5 or the multiple versions on Japanese Heavy tanks would continue to take damage to represent the shells passing through the destroyed object and penning the tank itself.

 



ValkyrionX #17 Posted 06 June 2019 - 12:15 AM

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View PostGremlin182, on 06 June 2019 - 12:14 AM, said:

 

It could do but really it could only apply to a cupola and I admit to having considered the idea in the past bqack then I just wanted the shell to actually blow the cupola off so it was apparent it was not there any more.

 

Couldn't work with any weak spot that has another part of the tank behind it like a vision slit or MG port.

So the mini turret on the KV5 or the multiple versions on Japanese Heavy tanks would continue to take damage to represent the shells passing through the destroyed object and penning the tank itself.

 

 

in fact it is aimed only at weakspots that are not part of the hull of a tank , not on ANY weakspots 

Zylon0 #18 Posted 06 June 2019 - 12:28 AM

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View PostValkyrionX, on 05 June 2019 - 11:12 PM, said:

 

paying a special ammo [example] of my M60 (today) 4800 credits or 5760 [+20%] does not make the game p2w

 

 

Simply induce you to think twice before using the gold ammunition, as you have a limited number of them , hit after hit , penetration after penetration, their damage decreases and above all you have received a slight penetration buff at the standard ammunition that basically goes to counterbalance the tanks more armored in the game

 

the game becomes p2w if I go on the premium shot and buy a gun that shot every 6 seconds and does 500 damage and that I can mount it on my m60..this is p2w, not what you say

 

I think the current implementation of the changes in premium ammo tanks HP and standard ammo damage increase on the sandbox server,

Is a much better system, then this proposed change that still has shells that are plain better then other shells without drawbacks.

 

WG system is better. 



ValkyrionX #19 Posted 06 June 2019 - 12:29 AM

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I would be interested in your opinion

 



ValkyrionX #20 Posted 06 June 2019 - 12:39 AM

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View PostZylon0, on 06 June 2019 - 12:28 AM, said:

 

I think the current implementation of the changes in premium ammo tanks HP and standard ammo damage increase on the sandbox server,

Is a much better system, then this proposed change that still has shells that are plain better then other shells without drawbacks.

 

WG system is better. 

 

 

so let me understand, do you think what the WG is doing in the sandbox is correct?

 

then you want a Super Conqueror that shoots every 6.4 seconds with an alhpa damage of over 500 per shot and a DPM of over 5000 and which has almost 3000 HP

or a MAUS with 3550 HP with an alpha damage of almost 700 per shot

or even worse a grille with an alpha damage of 1060 per shot, a DPM of almost 4600

or worse than the worst an obj268v4 that shoots every 13 seconds with about 900 damage per shot and a DPM of 4400

or an fv4005 with 1600 of dmg with AP rounds 

a bc25t with a potential clip of almost 2700

an is7 with 3000 HP and almost 700 of damage per shot


nice way to kill light tanks, medium tanks and make the arty even more useless given HP's absurd buff to all the tanks, especially the heavy ones


I look forward to seeing the tier 8 tanks fight against the tier X or tier 9 with these characteristics

 

 

 

 


Edited by ValkyrionX, 06 June 2019 - 12:46 AM.





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