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FV4005 / Fv..183 - HESH... About time we nerfed it, eh?.


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Poll: Does the 183 HESH need a nerf?. (83 members have cast votes)

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  1. Yes, Its too powerful and needs to be toned down considerably or removed. (29 votes [34.94%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 34.94%

  2. No, Its perfectly balanced and is a fun and engaging aspect of gameplay. (54 votes [65.06%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 65.06%

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Riggerby #1 Posted 07 June 2019 - 11:43 PM

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To quote wargaming themselves, Back in 2017 in regards to the 9.18 Artillery rebalance. 

 

''Large-caliber guns, coupled with the high penetration values of AP and HEAT shells, allowed SPGs to pierce thick armor, usually dealing fatal damage. This scenario forced draws and base camping; no one wants to be in a game where they barely get to play. ''

  • To lower the chances of being severely crippled, if not outright destroyed by SPGs, we significantly reduced the penetration and damage per shot for HE shells, while also removing AP, APCR, and HEAT shells for them. Of course, one-shots are still possible if the shell lands on the target and hits its ammo rack, but the chances of it happening are close to zero now.

 

I do not understand, How they can rebalance artillery, Due to the plain and simple fact noone liked getting one shotted, Yet keep this tank with this shell in the game when its the exact same thing?. NO OTHER tank in the entire game nowa'days can pack a one hit punch quite like what that HESH can do. It literally forces people to stay hidden behind rocks and buildings, because you know, if you push, even as a 100% health tank, You're almost guranteed to die. Only the thickest of superheavies dare push these monsters. If youre a medium. Hahaha, Enjoy your 0 damage battle and ticket back to the garage just because you happened to be spotted in this things gun vision....

 

Atleast artillery was a roll of the dice accuracy and damage wise if it 1 shot you back in the day.. This thing is just.. ''if i hit you, you will die''.... Its awful to play against in every single situation, And i hope i'm not the only one fed up of one just yolorushing round a corner, bang, 100% > 0%. gg back to garage. I dont care that the 4005 is squishy, Because to be able to kill it someone has to take a death for the team to enable the others to push it. JgpzE100 does what, 1050 damage with a 170mm gun, Why are the Fv's allowed to do almost 2.2k on a high roll?. Its stupid. Its powercreep. and its toxic.

 

 Pressing the 2 button and paying the better part of 9k credits to instantly win and beat a player doing everything right is just stupid and unfair. Remove it or balance it. No reload or nerf to the actual tank can balance the raw stupidity of how broken the shells damage is. Remember when you told us WtAufE100 was fair in its ability to clip anything because ''It has a big soft turret''.. Yeah... I suppose that same funky logic applies to 4005?... And The Fv183 dosent even have a soft turret!. Its tough and deadly!.


Edited by Riggerby, 07 June 2019 - 11:49 PM.


Baldrickk #2 Posted 07 June 2019 - 11:50 PM

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How often does it pen with the HESH?
How much armour does it have?
How stealthy is it?

It can be spotted at max range, and is more likely to eat penetration HE rounds than to penetrate itself.
It's very vulnerable after reloading.

Arty has always been a problem not because of the damage it could do,  but because it could do it without warning, practically anywhere on the map, at no risk to itself.

Riggerby #3 Posted 08 June 2019 - 12:00 AM

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View PostBaldrickk, on 07 June 2019 - 11:50 PM, said:

How often does it pen with the HESH?
How much armour does it have?
How stealthy is it?

It can be spotted at max range, and is more likely to eat penetration HE rounds than to penetrate itself.
It's very vulnerable after reloading.

Arty has always been a problem not because of the damage it could do, but because it could do it without warning, practically anywhere on the map, at no risk to itself.

 

> Often. Infact. A few battles ago i had one punch clean through the turret front of my M48A5, And thats supposed to be strong. If it gets the side or rear of a tank its going through, And if it gets the front of most tanks its going through.

> Well, The Fv215b183 actually has alot of armour. Ofcourse the 4005 is paper though, Though, I do not see how the armour of the vehicle is a balancing factor for a gun this powerful? WtAufE100 had no armour but that didnt balance its ridiculous gun.

> Again, Its camo sucks sure, But so did WTAufE100s. But i dont see anyone saying the WT was balanced because it had bad camo value. FV4005 camo is not THAT bad though, Sure its not great but it can still be workable. Does it matter if you spot it first? As soon as it sees you in return you're dead in one shot, Whereas you need half a dozen shots at minimum to kill him back.

 

I agree the method of delivery is different, But the outcome is the same, Its not enjoyable to be 1 shot. It never has been and it never will be. The 1.5-2k+ thunderslaps from artillery was what made people cry for nerfs. People can deal with the current 400-500 slaps.


Edited by Riggerby, 08 June 2019 - 12:01 AM.


Leepants #4 Posted 08 June 2019 - 12:15 AM

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Leave it be. It's been nerfed to death in the last patch. It's not SO difficult to not see it aiming in as it takes about a week to aim. It's a one-trick pony and the trick isn't SO hard to avoid. Then it's spotted and shot to bits. It needs something going for it.

NekoPuffer_PPP #5 Posted 08 June 2019 - 12:15 AM

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I could count the amount of times I penetrated a HESH shell on an enemy tank on my fingers.

 

It's not an issue and they rarely pen, unless you let them, then you've only got yourself to blame.



ExclamationMark #6 Posted 08 June 2019 - 12:16 AM

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All I need is to read title - no.

Remove it. I don't care if having high pen, high alpha HESH is its' unique trait. It's bad for the game.



Isharial #7 Posted 08 June 2019 - 12:19 AM

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View PostRiggerby, on 08 June 2019 - 12:00 AM, said:

 

> Often. Infact. A few battles ago i had one punch clean through the turret front of my M48A5, And thats supposed to be strong. If it gets the side or rear of a tank its going through, And if it gets the front of most tanks its going through.

> Well, The Fv215b183 actually has alot of armour. Ofcourse the 4005 is paper though, Though, I do not see how the armour of the vehicle is a balancing factor for a gun this powerful? WtAufE100 had no armour but that didnt balance its ridiculous gun.

> Again, Its camo sucks sure, But so did WTAufE100s. But i dont see anyone saying the WT was balanced because it had bad camo value. FV4005 camo is not THAT bad though, Sure its not great but it can still be workable. Does it matter if you spot it first? As soon as it sees you in return you're dead in one shot, Whereas you need half a dozen shots at minimum to kill him back.

 

I agree the method of delivery is different, But the outcome is the same, Its not enjoyable to be 1 shot. It never has been and it never will be. The 1.5-2k+ thunderslaps from artillery was what made people cry for nerfs. People can deal with the current 400-500 slaps.

 

A). its unlikely to pen you, not impossible. after all, it is still a type of HE round and therefore is basically stopped by spaced armour, which would pre-detonate it far before it can penetrate the armour behind, unlike say, AP or APCR

B) 183 has armour? since when? the turret has some angles and curves to it maybe, but the hull is weak and your engine is in the front... its also not great and ridge poking because of the depression + rear turret design so that hull armour is almost always seen..

the 4005 will get pretty much all rounds focused to it..


 

armour has a role in the overall balancing of a vehicle. paper vehicles like the 4005 usually make up for the shortcomings elsewhere by having a bigger gun, or higher rof, or whatever. the same gun mounted on a T95 for example would decimate all, far beyond the capabilities of the current 4005 or 183.

The WT is not much of a "but this had no armour" argument.. the WT was simply broken because it 1 clip its own tier just by looking at it. if it had of had a single shot gun like the Grille 15 does now, it would have been useless.... the platform was rubbish, people really only played it for the meme's...


 

it has less camo than most heavy tanks and if it shoots it has less camo than a type 5..... if you spot it and it doesn't see you, then yes, it does matter if you see it first :P

seriously though, its not exactly accurate and comes with a very long reload as well. if you try to run in it, you cant because you'll be spotted and no armour....

it has enough drawbacks right?


 


 

id much rather we has *more* diversity in the vehicles we have to use, and I don't like the current artillery either. id rather they just hit us and did the damage they used to. Atleast they wouldn't stun us in front of the enemy *and* break your modules.


 

if the FV4005 was nerfed (again) to say, 750 alpha, then what would be the point in playing it over say? the multitude of other TD's and heavies with the same gun? I mean, why play ISU when you can play 60TP and have a turret and workable armour?


 

guns all that's left of a time when wot had more to it than canyons and heavy tanks... leave it be and let it have its time. it will be replaced by some Russian heavy tank soon anyway.........................


 



RetroCh1cken #8 Posted 08 June 2019 - 12:39 AM

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View PostRiggerby, on 07 June 2019 - 10:43 PM, said:

To quote wargaming themselves, Back in 2017 in regards to the 9.18 Artillery rebalance. 

 

''Large-caliber guns, coupled with the high penetration values of AP and HEAT shells, allowed SPGs to pierce thick armor, usually dealing fatal damage. This scenario forced draws and base camping; no one wants to be in a game where they barely get to play. ''

  • To lower the chances of being severely crippled, if not outright destroyed by SPGs, we significantly reduced the penetration and damage per shot for HE shells, while also removing AP, APCR, and HEAT shells for them. Of course, one-shots are still possible if the shell lands on the target and hits its ammo rack, but the chances of it happening are close to zero now.

 

I do not understand, How they can rebalance artillery, Due to the plain and simple fact noone liked getting one shotted, Yet keep this tank with this shell in the game when its the exact same thing?. NO OTHER tank in the entire game nowa'days can pack a one hit punch quite like what that HESH can do. It literally forces people to stay hidden behind rocks and buildings, because you know, if you push, even as a 100% health tank, You're almost guranteed to die. Only the thickest of superheavies dare push these monsters. If youre a medium. Hahaha, Enjoy your 0 damage battle and ticket back to the garage just because you happened to be spotted in this things gun vision....

 

Atleast artillery was a roll of the dice accuracy and damage wise if it 1 shot you back in the day.. This thing is just.. ''if i hit you, you will die''.... Its awful to play against in every single situation, And i hope i'm not the only one fed up of one just yolorushing round a corner, bang, 100% > 0%. gg back to garage. I dont care that the 4005 is squishy, Because to be able to kill it someone has to take a death for the team to enable the others to push it. JgpzE100 does what, 1050 damage with a 170mm gun, Why are the Fv's allowed to do almost 2.2k on a high roll?. Its stupid. Its powercreep. and its toxic.

 

 Pressing the 2 button and paying the better part of 9k credits to instantly win and beat a player doing everything right is just stupid and unfair. Remove it or balance it. No reload or nerf to the actual tank can balance the raw stupidity of how broken the shells damage is. Remember when you told us WtAufE100 was fair in its ability to clip anything because ''It has a big soft turret''.. Yeah... I suppose that same funky logic applies to 4005?... And The Fv183 dosent even have a soft turret!. Its tough and deadly!.

 

Nerf? Meh, I hate them, have lost almost 2k health 4 times today by one shot by these bastards. But I get why they shouldn't be nerfed also cause it seems like they are broken rather than op, a better solution would be to just rebalance the whole tank.

 

I have seen on multiple scoreboards today though that those tanks to sum up a pretty hefty dmg score, seen up to 9k dmg today by one. So they just seem to be overall unbalanced, too weak in some abilities and too strong in other like dmg.



Leepants #9 Posted 08 June 2019 - 01:07 AM

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View PostRetroCh1cken, on 07 June 2019 - 11:39 PM, said:

 too weak in some abilities and too strong in other like dmg.

 

 

And that is, therefore, balanced, no? I don't understand.



KanonenVogel19 #10 Posted 08 June 2019 - 01:27 AM

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Is it really that massive problem to get oneshotted once in a while? Actually, getting perma tracked in a bad location will have the exact same effect, only difference is that it requires multiple shots rather than one. The end result and time of reaction is exactly the same.

 

If anything, the HESH ammo should cost the same as the AP ammo to stop people from thinking about how expensive it's and thus deciding to pick the worse setup just in order to save credits.



7thSyndicate #11 Posted 08 June 2019 - 02:44 AM

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That´s totally the problem in the game rn, not artys and wheelchairs but a td that can pen one shot once a while.

RetroCh1cken #12 Posted 08 June 2019 - 03:19 AM

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View PostLeepants, on 08 June 2019 - 12:07 AM, said:

 

 

And that is, therefore, balanced, no? I don't understand.

 

Well it maybe came out wrong but now and then it isn't good balancing to buff ability A and B incredible much and then nerf ability C and D also incredible much. There is always a limit in how much you can buff something and nerf something.

 

Let's take an extreme example. let's buff Maus's armour 10x times the thickness and let's nerf Maus's dmg output by 10x times. Now Maus can't do a thing in dmg against its tiers but it will literally be indestructible and nothing can kill it.

This is bad balancing, now Maus is too strong in one ability and too weak in another.

 

While FV4005 can might have bad armour and such but the dmg output it can deal can literally one-shot some tanks and have almost done it to my Mäuschen a couple of times today on the front armour, which is a super heavy tank. 

 

This is bad balancing, the FV4005 have gotten too much of one thing and too little of another.

Good balancing is more of not giving a tank too little or too much of anything. Like how the maus shouldn't be buffed in armour 10x times and nerfed in dmg output 10x times.

 

 



Leepants #13 Posted 08 June 2019 - 05:14 AM

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View PostRetroCh1cken, on 08 June 2019 - 02:19 AM, said:

 

Well it maybe came out wrong but now and then it isn't good balancing to buff ability A and B incredible much and then nerf ability C and D also incredible much. There is always a limit in how much you can buff something and nerf something.

 

Let's take an extreme example. let's buff Maus's armour 10x times the thickness and let's nerf Maus's dmg output by 10x times. Now Maus can't do a thing in dmg against its tiers but it will literally be indestructible and nothing can kill it.

This is bad balancing, now Maus is too strong in one ability and too weak in another.

 

While FV4005 can might have bad armour and such but the dmg output it can deal can literally one-shot some tanks and have almost done it to my Mäuschen a couple of times today on the front armour, which is a super heavy tank. 

 

This is bad balancing, the FV4005 have gotten too much of one thing and too little of another.

Good balancing is more of not giving a tank too little or too much of anything. Like how the maus shouldn't be buffed in armour 10x times and nerfed in dmg output 10x times.

 

 

 

Fair point! But, sorry, not a great example. Rock / paper / scissors (where ALL thing vs thing games theory comes from) means there is a weakness. Maus at 50x arnour CANNOT be countered. Glass cannon can. ;) Yes, it hits hard, but is weak. it has an agressive ability, but taht it fairly easily countered. It's about the counter, hence is why Maus isn't great example, as there is no counter.

 

Like wheeled vehicles (as above) - poor view range. So there is a counter - not to mention no HP nor amour.



shikaka9 #14 Posted 08 June 2019 - 05:21 AM

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FV183  ... but its the only thing what is left from that tank :( you want to pull a plug off a tank which is in vegetative state?

Edited by shikaka9, 08 June 2019 - 05:22 AM.


blaster1112 #15 Posted 08 June 2019 - 05:43 AM

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View PostRetroCh1cken, on 08 June 2019 - 12:39 AM, said:

 

Nerf? Meh, I hate them, have lost almost 2k health 4 times today by one shot by these bastards. But I get why they shouldn't be nerfed also cause it seems like they are broken rather than op, a better solution would be to just rebalance the whole tank.

 

I have seen on multiple scoreboards today though that those tanks to sum up a pretty hefty dmg score, seen up to 9k dmg today by one. So they just seem to be overall unbalanced, too weak in some abilities and too strong in other like dmg.

 

if you've truly been 1 shot 4 times in 1 day. I'm sorry bit you must have done something terribly wrong. 

I've been one shot 3 times by them in all my games.

1. I was fighting in my T-10, doing good damage on the enemies. And 1 broke through the other flank. Got behind me. (Team lost 4-15). That was a clean up kill. So the Fv4005 got quite lucky he hit.

2. Similar as 1, but playing my 705.

3. One shot in my T92 LT. (But he could have 1 shot me with AP, JPE100 could have done so as well. Most t10 Yes can 1 shot a tank with 1000hp using HE.

 

Playing my Fv4005 I've had a fair few of penning hits. Most of them were on enemies that either: didn't expect me to show up from where I did. (For instance due to me switching flanks unseen).

Or people showing a weak point in their armour allowing me an easy pen. (If RNG allowed it).

 

In general I don't see why there is so much complaining, they are fairly easy to counter. Mostly it's keeping at range, you outspot them fairly easily. (Although never stand still if you aren't sure he hasn't spotted you).

 

If you own these tanks you'll see just how easy they are to counter.



XxKuzkina_MatxX #16 Posted 08 June 2019 - 06:08 AM

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View PostLeepants, on 08 June 2019 - 04:07 AM, said:

And that is, therefore, balanced, no? I don't understand.

 

No Mr. Lee, too much good with too much bad make a 'broken' tank. HESH ammunition of this large caliber will do considerable amount of damage whether it penetrates or not, it got 1750 potential damage. So instead of being a meme, it can be balanced as a real effective TD. What WG is doing right now is slowly killing it "but hey it got a 183mm gun"!

 

For example it can have 900 alpha with good AP penetration, accurate gun but not so good gun handling and good DPM. That will be a playable tank and consistent with the line defining characteristics. No need for the HESH round to have that monstrous alpha.



Cobra6 #17 Posted 08 June 2019 - 09:15 AM

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While these tanks are nothing like arty, as they need a direct line of fire to you and the driver of these vehicles needs to actually take considerable risks doing damage to you, they are broken nonetheless.

 

The HESH ammo of these tanks should be removed and AP damage should be put to 1200 damage per shot.

*NO* tank should be able to one-shot top tier tanks, regardless of how much RNG is involved. It's just detrimental to the game experience for other players.

 

Cobra 6



Rati_Festa #18 Posted 08 June 2019 - 11:07 AM

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It didnt help wg reselling them. Yesterday t10 had 1 or 2 a game so eventuality you end up on the receiving end of one. I got full hp ammo racked in my 277 once, then next game a platoon of 2 both shot me simultaneously doing 1900 dmg... they both were unspotted.

Just bad game design, whats really concerning is they dont apoear to be learning as they resold a tank I assume was removed due to it being silly.

Ogroid #19 Posted 08 June 2019 - 02:45 PM

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Well it's pretty horrible to play, hesh seldom pens, tortoise is better than either 183 or free badger that came with it...

RetroCh1cken #20 Posted 08 June 2019 - 03:46 PM

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View Postblaster1112, on 08 June 2019 - 04:43 AM, said:

 

if you've truly been 1 shot 4 times in 1 day. I'm sorry bit you must have done something terribly wrong. 

I've been one shot 3 times by them in all my games.

1. I was fighting in my T-10, doing good damage on the enemies. And 1 broke through the other flank. Got behind me. (Team lost 4-15). That was a clean up kill. So the Fv4005 got quite lucky he hit.

2. Similar as 1, but playing my 705.

3. One shot in my T92 LT. (But he could have 1 shot me with AP, JPE100 could have done so as well. Most t10 Yes can 1 shot a tank with 1000hp using HE.

 

Playing my Fv4005 I've had a fair few of penning hits. Most of them were on enemies that either: didn't expect me to show up from where I did. (For instance due to me switching flanks unseen).

Or people showing a weak point in their armour allowing me an easy pen. (If RNG allowed it).

 

In general I don't see why there is so much complaining, they are fairly easy to counter. Mostly it's keeping at range, you outspot them fairly easily. (Although never stand still if you aren't sure he hasn't spotted you).

 

If you own these tanks you'll see just how easy they are to counter.

 

Keyword is ''almost'', I think you might have misread my comment as I said I have ''almost'' taken 2k dmg from one shot, this doesn't mean I was one-shotted, simply means the tank dealt almost 2k to my tank by firing once while hidden away so I couldn't even know they were there.




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