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Maybe the game is not so unbalanced right now....

special shells rebalancing

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_cassy99 #1 Posted 11 June 2019 - 11:09 PM

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I know I should have written this on sandbox forum, but I played sandbox until Sunday and I thought I could share my opinions after it was over, but I was wrong (threads are now close).
First of all, I think special shells are balanced enough as they are now in game, and this mainly for 3 reasons:
-It's not true that apcr and heats are flat better than ap: heat don't pen spaced armor and apcr have worse normalization, so you always have to be aware of which type of ammo is the best; maybe this is not well known between player base, so WG could explain this in the tutorial;
-I think it's simply right that there are ammos with different cost and slightly better than others: I'm a customer which payed hundred of euros since 2012 when I started playing, so why shouldn't I have a slightly advantage against free to play players? Especially considering that the advantage is not so big, I mean I don't load in half time or have double armor, I just pen a little bit more;
-As an experienced player, I can say there are really few tanks which suffer special ammos a lot (like maus, type 5 and e100); for the others it doesn't make a big difference, take for example an is7 against a 113: he will pen his lower plate with or without apcr, and he will bounce his upper plate with or without apcr. So maybe WG could fix this by simply buff these tanks' armor a bit to enhance their good-armor tanks role.
My second and more important thought is about new HP. WG I really beg you: if you want to nerf special ammos, just limit their number to 25% of total ammos, or nerf the damage by 10%. If you do this to HP, you will not solve anything, because the new balancing problems will be way more than the fixed ones (for example rhm bwt and isu-152 2-shotting vk100.01p, which makes no sense at all), you will need a year to balance all again and meanwhile WoT will probably die; also everyone will need to learn hp and alphas from scratch, which is very annoying. And the last thing, stats: I worked hard for 7 years to achieve good amount of average dmg and wg plans to destroy all this work.
Please remember that I love this game and I wrote this to make WoT lasts the longest time possible, not to criticize what wg does for no reason, I'm not a hater. Check my stats, check my number of games and think about players like me, who just want to keep enjoying this game like it is now, because for each player who complains, I'm sure there are a lot of other ones who just play and like Wot.
 

Sir_Armand #2 Posted 11 June 2019 - 11:26 PM

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View Post_cassy99, on 11 June 2019 - 11:09 PM, said:

 I'm a customer which payed hundred of euros since 2012 when I started playing, so why shouldn't I have a slightly advantage against free to play players?

Sure, why isn't like that in most games? Imean, I can pay five bucks to steal a knight from my opponents chess set right? Or give five grand for a guy to break the opponent goalkeepers legs before the final game, right? Or pay a judge to give a competitor an inaccurate map before a rally? Or buy some steroids to increase my muscle growth while prepping for tour de france?
I'm a paying customer, why would there be anything wrong with that?


Edited by Sir_Armand, 11 June 2019 - 11:27 PM.


onderschepper #3 Posted 11 June 2019 - 11:34 PM

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View PostSir_Armand, on 11 June 2019 - 11:26 PM, said:

Sure, why isn't like that in most games? Imean, I can pay five bucks to steal a knight from my opponents chess set right? Or give five grand for a guy to break the opponent goalkeepers legs before the final game, right? Or pay a judge to give a competitor an inaccurate map before a rally? Or buy some steroids to increase my muscle growth while prepping for tour de france?
I'm a paying customer, why would there be anything wrong with that?

 

Poor examples as the game would not exist but for the continuing support of paying customers - servers are not cheap to maintain, and Wargaming are currently hiring staff en mass, predominantly in the areas of game art/ design/ development for which the salary range starts at £19,000 for the UK based roles.

 

Ultimately, Wargaming are not a registered charity and thus they exist to make profit - in games where the rules are set by them and what the users deem to be fair/ unfair are merely opinions that Wargaming can disregard at their discretion.



_cassy99 #4 Posted 11 June 2019 - 11:39 PM

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There is a HUGE amount of games where if you want to unlock the most powerful guns or drive the best cars you have to pay; and I can't blame the game developers for this, because they create a game to try making people buying stuff in it and earn money from their game, not because they don't know how to spend their free time and want to donate a completely free-to-play game to the world. I agree that the advantages of paying shouldn't be too enormous, otherwise the game become too difficult for free to play gamers, and I think WoT is currently good at this, because EVERYONE can buy special shells, simply paying customers have less problems to afford it. 

Sir_Armand #5 Posted 12 June 2019 - 12:29 AM

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View Postonderschepper, on 11 June 2019 - 11:34 PM, said:

 

Poor examples as the game would not exist but for the continuing support of paying customers - servers are not cheap to maintain, and Wargaming are currently hiring staff en mass, predominantly in the areas of game art/ design/ development for which the salary range starts at £19,000 for the UK based roles.

 

Ultimately, Wargaming are not a registered charity and thus they exist to make profit - in games where the rules are set by them and what the users deem to be fair/ unfair are merely opinions that Wargaming can disregard at their discretion.

 

Oh, and you cannot come up with a single thing to charge maney for, except things that are outright cheating?
I enjoy game design, wouldn't hire you mate...
23:32 Added after 2 minutes

View Post_cassy99, on 11 June 2019 - 11:39 PM, said:

There is a HUGE amount of games where if you want to unlock the most powerful guns or drive the best cars you have to pay; and I can't blame the game developers for this, because they create a game to try making people buying stuff in it and earn money from their game, not because they don't know how to spend their free time and want to donate a completely free-to-play game to the world. I agree that the advantages of paying shouldn't be too enormous, otherwise the game become too difficult for free to play gamers, and I think WoT is currently good at this, because EVERYONE can buy special shells, simply paying customers have less problems to afford it. 

 

Ah, the old "since there are others that are doing it, it must be right" argument, yup, and exactly tha is going through the minds of a lot of athetes too, and that is why we have doping scandals, fixed matces etc etc.

IMO that doesn't make it right, but our mileage and etchics obviously differ.



mtnm #6 Posted 12 June 2019 - 06:30 AM

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View Post_cassy99, on 11 June 2019 - 11:09 PM, said:

I'm a customer which payed hundred of euros since 2012 when I started playing, so why shouldn't I have a slightly advantage against free to play players?

 

I think WG is trying to fix it's perception of a P2W game so that it attracts more new players. I wish them good luck.



_cassy99 #7 Posted 12 June 2019 - 07:23 AM

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Btw I said there are  two more reasons (imho) that make special shells not so unbalanced, so I think WG could work around this, instead of changing the whole hp mechanics.

Sir_Armand #8 Posted 12 June 2019 - 07:51 AM

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View Postmtnm, on 12 June 2019 - 06:30 AM, said:

 

I think WG is trying to fix it's perception of a P2W game so that it attracts more new players. I wish them good luck.

 

I have no doubt whatsoever that WG is working hard to change it's image as PtW.
If they worked half as hard on actually removing the PtW aspect of the game, I believe the former task would become easier....:harp:

arthurwellsley #9 Posted 12 June 2019 - 08:13 AM

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View Post_cassy99, on 11 June 2019 - 10:09 PM, said:


First of all, I think special shells are balanced enough as they are now in game, and this mainly for 3 reasons: I also think type 2 ammunition is well balanced ingame at the moment, and I believe by going through this testing WG has made a rod for it's own back.

-It's not true that apcr and heats are flat better than ap: heat don't pen spaced armor and apcr have worse normalization, so you always have to be aware of which type of ammo is the best; maybe this is not well known between player base, so WG could explain this in the tutorial; This is correct a better tutorial on the differences between APCR and HEAT would be good.

, so why shouldn't I have a slightly advantage against free to play players?  NO. Because that is pay2win.

-So maybe WG could fix this by simply buff these tanks' armor a bit to enhance their good-armor tanks role.  Tank rebalancing seems a better use of WG employee time than trying to rebalance type 2 ammunition which has been a core component of WoT since 2011, and WoT has been successful over all those years.

My second and more important thought is about new HP. WG I really beg you: if you want to nerf special ammos, just limit their number to 25% of total ammos, or nerf the damage by 10%.  For legal reasons WG have decided that this is not an option that they wish to go down. No matter how many times players suggest this it will not occur.
 
If you do this to HP, you will not solve anything, because the new balancing problems will be way more than the fixed ones (for example rhm bwt and isu-152 2-shotting vk100.01p, which makes no sense at all), you will need a year to balance all again and meanwhile WoT will probably die;  This is the early iteration of testing on the Sandbox. Previous Sandbox tests have resulted in things tested never coming to live servers, other things have gone through years of testing prior to coming to the live server. WG are not as stupid as to iterate on live servers, they'll do the tests on the Sandox and then on closed test servers, and those may take a year or two.
 
And the last thing, stats: I worked hard for 7 years to achieve good amount of average dmg and wg plans to destroy all this work. This is a worry only for a minority of players who have good stats. Given the that high stat players probably account for no more than 10% of the player base, how will WG cater for them? It will be interesting to see WGs solution for this issue.
 

Please remember that I love this game and I wrote this to make WoT lasts the longest time possible,  My account dates from 2011 and I still enjoy WoT and want it to continue.
 

 



Propjesschieter #10 Posted 12 June 2019 - 08:28 AM

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View PostSir_Armand, on 12 June 2019 - 12:29 AM, said:

 

Oh, and you cannot come up with a single thing to charge maney for, except things that are outright cheating?
I enjoy game design, wouldn't hire you mate...

Cheating? Maybe you should look up the definition of cheating....

I dont have premium time/account and never spend a penny on WoT but still manage to play with 5 to 10 "premium" ammo shells in all of my tanks upto tier X and I play well enough to make credits in most games. Please stop blaming premium ammo for your own poor performance.

 

 


Edited by Propjesschieter, 12 June 2019 - 08:29 AM.


Sir_Armand #11 Posted 12 June 2019 - 08:36 AM

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View PostPropjesschieter, on 12 June 2019 - 08:28 AM, said:

Cheating? Maybe you should look up the definition of cheating....

I dont have premium time/account and never spend a penny on WoT but still manage to play with 5 to 10 "premium" ammo shells in all of my tanks upto tier X and I play well enough to make credits in most games. Please stop blaming premium ammo for your own poor performance.

 

 

 

Yes, cheating. WG may be bribable, but paying money to achieve an actual advantage is cheating in my book.
The old statshaming argument? Please stop using rethoric until you have a degree i it would be the same thing. 
Now do you realise how stupid that "argument" is?

LordSkyFury #12 Posted 12 June 2019 - 08:38 AM

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View Post_cassy99, on 11 June 2019 - 11:09 PM, said:

apcr have worse normalization

 

In case of APCR the benefits of penetration and shell velocity gain is so high that less normalization is irrelevant. APCR is mostly just straight improvement over AP.



Dava_117 #13 Posted 12 June 2019 - 09:45 AM

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View Post_cassy99, on 11 June 2019 - 11:09 PM, said:

I know I should have written this on sandbox forum, but I played sandbox until Sunday and I thought I could share my opinions after it was over, but I was wrong (threads are now close).
First of all, I think special shells are balanced enough as they are now in game, and this mainly for 3 reasons:
-It's not true that apcr and heats are flat better than ap: heat don't pen spaced armor and apcr have worse normalization, so you always have to be aware of which type of ammo is the best; maybe this is not well known between player base, so WG could explain this in the tutorial;
-I think it's simply right that there are ammos with different cost and slightly better than others: I'm a customer which payed hundred of euros since 2012 when I started playing, so why shouldn't I have a slightly advantage against free to play players? Especially considering that the advantage is not so big, I mean I don't load in half time or have double armor, I just pen a little bit more;
-As an experienced player, I can say there are really few tanks which suffer special ammos a lot (like maus, type 5 and e100); for the others it doesn't make a big difference, take for example an is7 against a 113: he will pen his lower plate with or without apcr, and he will bounce his upper plate with or without apcr. So maybe WG could fix this by simply buff these tanks' armor a bit to enhance their good-armor tanks role.
My second and more important thought is about new HP. WG I really beg you: if you want to nerf special ammos, just limit their number to 25% of total ammos, or nerf the damage by 10%. If you do this to HP, you will not solve anything, because the new balancing problems will be way more than the fixed ones (for example rhm bwt and isu-152 2-shotting vk100.01p, which makes no sense at all), you will need a year to balance all again and meanwhile WoT will probably die; also everyone will need to learn hp and alphas from scratch, which is very annoying. And the last thing, stats: I worked hard for 7 years to achieve good amount of average dmg and wg plans to destroy all this work.
Please remember that I love this game and I wrote this to make WoT lasts the longest time possible, not to criticize what wg does for no reason, I'm not a hater. Check my stats, check my number of games and think about players like me, who just want to keep enjoying this game like it is now, because for each player who complains, I'm sure there are a lot of other ones who just play and like Wot.
 

 

Just some remarks:

Point 1)

While it is true that the ammo types have different set of advantage and disadvantage, this is only true when the penetration coefficient is comparable. A 320 pen APCR will always be better than a 258 pen AP, because 3° less normalization can't compensate for 62mm more pen.

And it's not like HEAT round gets automatically absorbed by tracks and spaced armour. You need 2m of air to completely absorb an HEAT shell in WoT, so you can still do damage to tank that have spaced armour too.

Point 2) no, P2W is not acceptable. Also you can't consider price as a balancing factor when the in game currency can be bought for real money.

Point 3) It's not true that premium ammo influence only superheavy. In you example of the IS-7 shooting at a 113, considering 113 UFP is in the 290mm of effective armour region  before normalization, IS-7 APCR allows you to pen 113 UFP while AP don't. Other example: an IS-4 can get up to 270-280mm of effective armour while perfectly angled. So it makes a huge difference if standard ammo or premium ammo is shot at it. Superheavy are the one that care less about premium ammo spam (maybe except E100 due to the turret shape) because they can angle to easily bounce premium ammo too. Actually, the tanks that suffer more are the tanks that are midway between paperish and superheavy. Tanks like the 113 you named, the IS-4, E5, CentAX and so on. All those tanks have zone of armour that, when well used, repel standard ammo but became easy pen with premium.

 

I agree that the proposed buff to alpha is too high, tho. They should really find a better way to update alpha.

 

And lastly. Who cares about stat? If people is so eager to know your avarage DPG, they will simply check the recent, that will surely go up of the proposed changes goes live.

Some third party rating should not block a game from evolving.


Edited by Dava_117, 12 June 2019 - 10:31 AM.


Propjesschieter #14 Posted 12 June 2019 - 10:10 AM

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View PostSir_Armand, on 12 June 2019 - 08:36 AM, said:

 

Yes, cheating. WG may be bribable, but paying money to achieve an actual advantage is cheating in my book.
The old statshaming argument? Please stop using rethoric until you have a degree i it would be the same thing. 
Now do you realise how stupid that "argument" is?

 

You dont need to pay money to fire some premium shells.....and I am not stats shaming I am just pointing about that it is again some below average player is complaining about the "pay-2-win" aspect of certain ammo whilst there is absolutely no reason to blame that ammo for others winning more then you.

Sir_Armand #15 Posted 12 June 2019 - 10:26 AM

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View PostPropjesschieter, on 12 June 2019 - 10:10 AM, said:

 

You dont need to pay money to fire some premium shells.....and I am not stats shaming I am just pointing about that it is again some below average player is complaining about the "pay-2-win" aspect of certain ammo whilst there is absolutely no reason to blame that ammo for others winning more then you.

 

Now you're resorting to outright lies.
And yes, using stats a a way to discredit an argument IS exactly statshaming and an old logical fallacy. Let me ask you,If an old boxing referee has an opinion on the rules of boxing,would you discard his arguments because his old winraate with the gloves on?

I have never claimed thast my WR is at average because of OPrems from other players(or myself), maybe you should read what I write instead of assuming that I'm writing what you would expect me to write?

TankkiPoju #16 Posted 12 June 2019 - 10:35 AM

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View PostSir_Armand, on 12 June 2019 - 10:26 AM, said:

 

Now you're resorting to outright lies.
And yes, using stats a a way to discredit an argument IS exactly statshaming and an old logical fallacy. Let me ask you,If an old boxing referee has an opinion on the rules of boxing,would you discard his arguments because his old winraate with the gloves on?

I have never claimed thast my WR is at average because of OPrems from other players(or myself), maybe you should read what I write instead of assuming that I'm writing what you would expect me to write?

 

Dont worry dude, maybe WG will remove premium ammo and OP premium tanks, and then you will be a super unicum.

 

BTW that type 59 isn't strong enough? You know, the original OP premium tank in the game?



Propjesschieter #17 Posted 12 June 2019 - 10:39 AM

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View PostSir_Armand, on 12 June 2019 - 10:26 AM, said:

 

Now you're resorting to outright lies.
And yes, using stats a a way to discredit an argument IS exactly statshaming and an old logical fallacy. Let me ask you,If an old boxing referee has an opinion on the rules of boxing,would you discard his arguments because his old winraate with the gloves on?

I have never claimed thast my WR is at average because of OPrems from other players(or myself), maybe you should read what I write instead of assuming that I'm writing what you would expect me to write?

 

You define premium/gold/special ammo as "cheating" which is an indirect way of saying that people who use that ammo prevent you from getting better results but how can something that is available for every player be cheating? 

 

PS your WR is below average, not at average.



malachi6 #18 Posted 12 June 2019 - 10:56 AM

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View PostSir_Armand, on 11 June 2019 - 11:26 PM, said:

Sure, why isn't like that in most games? Imean, I can pay five bucks to steal a knight from my opponents chess set right? Or give five grand for a guy to break the opponent goalkeepers legs before the final game, right? Or pay a judge to give a competitor an inaccurate map before a rally? Or buy some steroids to increase my muscle growth while prepping for tour de france?
I'm a paying customer, why would there be anything wrong with that?

 

reductio absurdum is not an argument.

 

However, I can buy books or hire people to teach me to play chess better.  Real Madrid is worth $3.4 billion and does better than my local Sunday league team.  Motorsports teams spend millions in simulation to better prepare for an event.  Team Sky skated so close to the drugs laws that the rules have now been changed.  So yes, spending money buys an advantage.  It may not be fair but it is a fact. 



onderschepper #19 Posted 12 June 2019 - 11:57 AM

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View PostSir_Armand, on 12 June 2019 - 12:29 AM, said:

 

Oh, and you cannot come up with a single thing to charge maney for, except things that are outright cheating?
I enjoy game design, wouldn't hire you mate...

 

Okay, then I shall state for the third time on this forum that I would be more than happy if Wargaming made the Premium Account a mandatory feature for all players. :facepalm:

 

This would eradicate the P2W complainers as they shall either become a paying customer, or they shall disappear back to the holes from whence they came. :popcorn:



_cassy99 #20 Posted 12 June 2019 - 02:41 PM

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I have to admit that probably I didn't expressed my opinion about paying for a game in the correct way. My point is that, considering WG has to earn money from WoT in any case, and considering that special shells are not something only someone could buy (as I said EVERYONE can buy it), the entire shells topic is not a great problem for the game imo. I'm not a sustainer of hardcore p2w policy, but if someone says that WoT is a fully p2w game he'swrong (I could name a lot of games, even for smartphones, which are really p2w, where a free-to-play gamer simply can't catch who pays, which is not the case of WoT). Ofc I don't think WoT is perfect, but I like it at its current state and I don't want to carry the risk to ruin the whole game for this, because balancing issues after changing all hp can really kill this game.

And I really wonder why there are people who keep complaining about WoT but still play it. I mean if you don't like it just play something else.






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