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gav00 #1 Posted 13 June 2019 - 09:32 AM

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Why are the wheels on these vehicles acting as spaced armour?

Has anyone at WG ever encountered rubber before? It's not as dense as face-hardened steel and any high velocity shells would not even notice going through one. 

Additionally, due to the tires being solid, small shells would not affect the vehicle's driving ability (unless you hit the hub).

 

It is ridiculous to hit the wheels of these vehicles with a cannon which is almost as big as the car itself, the shot should pass straight through the wheel and into the side of the vehicle hull.

 

WG, I know that physics is not your strong point, but please try.



Nexuss9383 #2 Posted 13 June 2019 - 09:41 AM

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lol your talking to a company that put 300mm armor on the capula of a medium tank(430u) (take a 30cm ruler and put it to ur forhead - thats how much armor u got) then thaught it was a good idea to add these clown cars

 

 i would want more than try


Edited by Nexuss9383, 13 June 2019 - 09:42 AM.


tajj7 #3 Posted 13 June 2019 - 09:42 AM

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They work the same way as tracks, and when you don't do damage its because you didn't hit the hull, just like the same that happens with tracks.

 

I don't get why this concept is so hard for people when its been in the game since the start. 

 

The only difference is because all the wheels are independent, you don't stop the vehicle, only slow it down. 



gav00 #4 Posted 13 June 2019 - 09:46 AM

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View Posttajj7, on 13 June 2019 - 09:42 AM, said:

They work the same way as tracks, and when you don't do damage its because you didn't hit the hull, just like the same that happens with tracks.

 

I don't get why this concept is so hard for people when its been in the game since the start. 

 

The only difference is because all the wheels are independent, you don't stop the vehicle, only slow it down. 

 

Because tracks aren't made of rubber perhaps? Therefore a shell making contact with tracks will likely have a change of trajectory and velocity by the time it hits the hull.

If WG can't model their materials correctly then they shouldn't have bothered.



tajj7 #5 Posted 13 June 2019 - 09:53 AM

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View Postgav00, on 13 June 2019 - 08:46 AM, said:

 

Because tracks aren't made of rubber perhaps? Therefore a shell making contact with tracks will likely have a change of trajectory and velocity by the time it hits the hull.

If WG can't model their materials correctly then they shouldn't have bothered.

 

That point is largely irrelevant because the spaced armour level of the wheels is not high enough to actually stop shells, especially as the hull is paper as well. 

 

The sides of most of the WVs is 16mm, even if the wheels doubled that, they are still getting penned by everything.

 

So it doesn't really matter, the situations where you are getting hits but no damage is because you only hit the wheels not the hull.

 

Also shots hitting tracks don't deviate.

 

And if you want to start talking realism then there would be that lots of shots hitting these tanks would just overpen and go straight through doing no damage. 



Richthoffen #6 Posted 13 June 2019 - 09:55 AM

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it would make more sense to reduce the hitbox for a wheel to the size of the rim as most of the side is now covered by a inflated piece of rubber that acts as spaced armor

gav00 #7 Posted 13 June 2019 - 09:59 AM

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View Posttajj7, on 13 June 2019 - 09:53 AM, said:

 

That point is largely irrelevant because the spaced armour level of the wheels is not high enough to actually stop shells, especially as the hull is paper as well. 

 

The sides of most of the WVs is 16mm, even if the wheels doubled that, they are still getting penned by everything.

 

So it doesn't really matter, the situations where you are getting hits but no damage is because you only hit the wheels not the hull.

 

Also shots hitting tracks don't deviate.

 

And if you want to start talking realism then there would be that lots of shots hitting these tanks would just overpen and go straight through doing no damage. 

 

Shots which hit the tracks but do not do tracking damage do deviate.

 

Also there is no such thing as "overpen" for something as small as a WV. There is not much unused space inside them.

 

There are only very few extremely lucky cases of overpen on any tank, as they still create spall and hit valuable things inside.

 

This is not Warships, where a large area of the internals might be relatively empty.



eldrak #8 Posted 13 June 2019 - 10:01 AM

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View PostRichthoffen, on 13 June 2019 - 08:55 AM, said:

it would make more sense to reduce the hitbox for a wheel to the size of the rim as most of the side is now covered by a inflated piece of rubber that acts as spaced armor

 

Did you just not read any of the explanation Tajj posted?


Spaced armour can be anything really, external fuel tanks, plywood, wire mesh... Anything that make HE and HEAT detonate further from the real hull works.

gav00 #9 Posted 13 June 2019 - 10:02 AM

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View Posteldrak, on 13 June 2019 - 10:01 AM, said:

 

Did you just not read any of the explanation Tajj posted?


Spaced armour can be anything really, external fuel tanks, plywood, wire mesh... Anything that make HE and HEAT detonate further from the real hull works.

 

We are talking primarily about AP shot and his point is completely valid

tajj7 #10 Posted 13 June 2019 - 10:13 AM

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View Postgav00, on 13 June 2019 - 08:59 AM, said:

 

Shots which hit the tracks but do not do tracking damage do deviate.

 

Also there is no such thing as "overpen" for something as small as a WV. There is not much unused space inside them.

 

There are only very few extremely lucky cases of overpen on any tank, as they still create spall and hit valuable things inside.

 

This is not Warships, where a large area of the internals might be relatively empty.

 

No they don't because tracks don't really bounce like armour, they absorb shoots in the same way that is being explained to you, in that no hull is behind, like if you hit tracks front on, which is where you can bait shots into your tracks whilst sidescraping. Even the thickest tracks in the game are only like 40mm thick, so pretty much everything they face pens them from most angles, but generally you bounce off the side armour if it is well angled, or you have situations like the E100 which has sections on its sides that have 60mm spaced armour, 40mm tracks and then 120mm side armour, which can bounce shots. 

 

Yes overpens would still realistically happen and its as relevant as your comment about rubber. 

 

But overall your point is still moot.

 

You are not hitting the hull of the WV, that is simply what is happening, the wheels being spaced armour is pretty much irrelevant because they don't offer enough protection to stop shells. 

 

If you changed them to basically having no hit box then you wouldn't be able to damage the wheels at all and instead of crit hits, you'd be basically missing, so that would be a stupid situation.

 

You are basically blaming WG for your own ignorance of the game mechanics. 

 

If you don't hit a hull hitbox, you don't do any damage, its as simple as that, and it applies to all 'spaced armour' in the game, be it tracks, wheels, viewports etc. 

 



Richthoffen #11 Posted 13 June 2019 - 10:28 AM

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View Posteldrak, on 13 June 2019 - 10:01 AM, said:

 

Did you just not read any of the explanation Tajj posted?


Spaced armour can be anything really, external fuel tanks, plywood, wire mesh... Anything that make HE and HEAT detonate further from the real hull works.

 

AP shells do not detonate, 128mm should not have much trouble with a wheel, it likely would rip it off but that is besides the point. the amount of critical hits is to high, ripping trough a wheel it can lose 25% pen like it would when shooting trough a wall but not get completely soaked up like now

eldrak #12 Posted 13 June 2019 - 11:03 AM

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View PostRichthoffen, on 13 June 2019 - 09:28 AM, said:

 

AP shells do not detonate, 128mm should not have much trouble with a wheel, it likely would rip it off but that is besides the point. the amount of critical hits is to high, ripping trough a wheel it can lose 25% pen like it would when shooting trough a wall but not get completely soaked up like now

 

You still don't understand what happens.

 

When you hit a lightly armoured tank

with ap or apcr

and neither penetrate or ricochet

then you have hit parts that don't count as turret or hull (such as tracks or optic systems)

WITHOUT any parts of turret or hull

directly behind them

in the projectiles path of travel. 



Balc0ra #13 Posted 13 June 2019 - 11:05 AM

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View Postgav00, on 13 June 2019 - 09:32 AM, said:

It is ridiculous to hit the wheels of these vehicles with a cannon which is almost as big as the car itself, the shot should pass straight through the wheel and into the side of the vehicle hull.

 

WG, I know that physics is not your strong point, but please try.

 

You could say the same for tracks that are less narrow then the shell you fire at it. But this is not a sim game with real-life physics. It's an arcade game with more simplistic rules. Thus the same rule apply to all. Regardless of shell size, but rather shell type.


Edited by Balc0ra, 13 June 2019 - 11:05 AM.


tajj7 #14 Posted 13 June 2019 - 11:09 AM

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I'm sorry but this really is not a hard concept I do not get why people don't get it.

 

It has never mattered how big your gun is, big guns are not magic and they cannot break the laws of the game (and this is not real life), whatever you think about a big shell hitting wheels or tracks does not matter, it is how the game treats them.

 

Also shells in game have no real size, just like armour plates have no real physical thickness, they are all just numbers. 

 

Your shell hits a wheel, there is no armour behind the wheel, so not hitbox to damage, which means no damage. Size of the gun is completely irrelevant, as is pen. 

 

If you hit a wheel and there is hull behind, then you will pen, because the like 15-20mm of spaced armour that tracks and wheels are, in front of like 16-20mm of light tank armour, is not going to bounce anything. 



Geno1isme #15 Posted 13 June 2019 - 11:14 AM

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View Postgav00, on 13 June 2019 - 10:46 AM, said:

If WG can't model their materials correctly then they shouldn't have bothered.

 

This isn't a physics simulation. WG has never bothered with modeling materials at all. All in-game physics (including penetration checks) are just abstract simplifications that are supposed to give us a rough impression about actual physics behavior.


Edited by Geno1isme, 13 June 2019 - 11:14 AM.


Richthoffen #16 Posted 13 June 2019 - 11:54 AM

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View Posteldrak, on 13 June 2019 - 11:03 AM, said:

 

You still don't understand what happens.

 

When you hit a lightly armoured tank

with ap or apcr

and neither penetrate or ricochet

then you have hit parts that don't count as turret or hull (such as tracks or optic systems)

WITHOUT any parts of turret or hull

directly behind them

in the projectiles path of travel.

 

what part of most of the hull covered by a wheel that acts as spaced armor is so hard to understand? as already said shells have no dimensions same as armor plates but hitting a wheel should reduce pen similar to a wall in game and not swallow shells completely they should not be treated as tracks but as destructible objects regardless of there being a hitbox behind them or not

Homer_J #17 Posted 13 June 2019 - 12:03 PM

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View Postgav00, on 13 June 2019 - 09:32 AM, said:

 

It is ridiculous

 

I think you have been around here long enough to know not to bring the realism argument out.

 

Get rid of the ridiculous stuff and you will be playing a different game.


Edited by Homer_J, 13 June 2019 - 12:03 PM.


Dorander #18 Posted 13 June 2019 - 12:04 PM

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View PostRichthoffen, on 13 June 2019 - 10:54 AM, said:

 

what part of most of the hull covered by a wheel that acts as spaced armor is so hard to understand? as already said shells have no dimensions same as armor plates but hitting a wheel should reduce pen similar to a wall in game and not swallow shells completely they should not be treated as tracks but as destructible objects regardless of there being a hitbox behind them or not

 

Euh, this is exactly what happens, I don't see what the complaint here is about. OP complains that they act as spaced armour which reduces penetration value on the hitbox behind the spaced armour, you complain that they should act like spaced armour but they do.

 

Two possible scenarios for hitting a wheel with AP(CR), there's either hull hitbox behind it in the path of the shell or there isn't.

 

If there is: Wheel gets damaged as external modules do, acts as spaced armour for the penetrating hit behind it to the hull. Given paper armour this pretty much always results in damage to the tank. The damaged wheel slows down the tank (depending on how many wheels the tank has and how many are damaged this may not be significant) until it is repaired automatically or by repairkit.

 

If there isn't: Wheel gets damaged. It does not "swallow the shell", there's no hull behind it to hit so the shell hits the ground. People come to rage on the forums about wheeled tanks when all that happened is a standard function of aiming RNG that's always applied to every other tank out there but at least you tracked those for visible and potential significant effect on "critical hits".






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