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Why do players complain more about the Defender than IS3A?

is3a is3 is-3 is-3a defender 252u obj 252u obj 252 balanced af

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ExclamationMark #1 Posted 14 June 2019 - 07:19 PM

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I've had the Defender for some time. Played quite a bit of it on day one, since then played it irregularly. But I never liked it, the gun is just terrible. Yes, it works up close, which is obviously what the tank is meant for. But anything more than knife-fights is just painful. Terrible dispersions, terrible aimtime, terrible accuracy. It may be a pain in the [redacted] to play against, but it's far more frustrating to drive one.

 

Anyway, I got the IS3A through lootboxes at Christmas. Haven't played it until recently. Its gun handling is worse than the Defender, but not by a massive margin. 

Its armour is noticeably worse. Hull is poor in this day and age, but not bad. Certainly workable vs. same tier tanks and lower. Turret is hit and miss - literally. Almost any tank it meets can easily pen its turret due to overmatch mechanics, same as with the standard IS3. I would argue that its turret is worse than the Defenders. 

 


 

But whatever, who cares about all of that. That's not what makes this tank so broken, and unfortunately what makes this tank so broken is not entirely widely known. I've played against plenty of players that didn't know that this IS3A is in fact an autoloader. Or more specifically, an inverse autoreloader. And one of if not the best in the game, tier for tier. And that is all due to that one small word - "inverse". If you don't know what that means:

 

Autoloader - "standard" autoloader. You reload a full drum magazine, and the time is fixed. Even if you only have one shell to load, it will take just as long as if you had four.

Autoreloader - "new" autoloader. Only seen in the Italian tanks so far. Shells are loaded individually into a drum, one at a time. Each shell you fire increases the time for one shell to load. As an example, a typical Progetto 46 running food will load shells in this order: 10s, 7s, 6s.

Inverse autoreloader - this is a copy of the autoreloading mechanic, but inverse, and only one tank has it so far - the IS3A. What this means is, the first shell loads the fastest, and the last shell will take the longest. A typical IS3A running food will load shells in this order: 11s, 14s, 16s.

 

It is such a broken way for a tank's gun to behave, and I never fully realized this until I actually started playing the IS3A. On paper, at Christmas, it was already apparent that this would be a massively powerful mechanic to have. But actually playing one? Whole different ball game. 

With the Italian autoreloaders, you at least have the huge disadvantage of changing shell types. As in, your first shell of new selected type will take far longer to load. IS3A on the other hand, will load its new, 390 alpha shell in almost the exact same amount of time.

 


 

In response to the title, I guess I already know the answer, but I just wanted to discuss this tank, since I wasn't around post-Christmas to see the reaction to it. My guess is - and this has been the case for me as well when playing against an IS3A - the armour. You can pen this tank relatively easily, but again that's not what makes this tank so powerful, it's the gun. The Defender's main attribute is its stupid, immune-to-most-standard-ammo armour. This can be countered relatively easily (if you choose to shoot prem ammo).

 

What is the counter to an IS3A? A fully loaded 50 100 with APCR? Maybe, but who even plays 50 100s nowadays? Honestly the best counter to an IS3A is another IS3A. And isn't that the epitome of balance - when the best counter to a tank... is another tank of the same type. :facepalm:

 


 

Obviously I'm speaking about all of this from a same-tier perspective. But personally, there's not been a single T8 tank that I felt threatened by when playing the IS3A, except the possibility of encountering another one. Your ability to just sit back for a while, wait for a full drum, and begin engaging again is, well just broken. The usual response to an autoloader is to push them once they've unloaded, but with this tank, unless you've been around it and paying attention, you've no idea how many shells it has. Maybe it only has one, and you push. So what? It already has good DPM (out of T8 heavies) with only one shell, 2000 base, which is topped only by a select few T8 heavies.

 

I'll end with dumping a few replays. Keep in mind, I've only played 52 games in this tank, and have already had two games that came close to being 2k base exp. That is just ridiculous. There's not been a single other T8 heavy I've played with the ability to consistently achieve 1.5k+ base exp games. 

 

5.6k damage, 10 kills, 1 vs. 4, 1935 b.exphttp://wotreplays.eu/site/4910388#stats

5.8k damage, 7 kills, 1829 b.exphttp://wotreplays.eu/site/4912219#stats

5.2k damage, 6 kills, 1623 b.exphttp://wotreplays.eu/site/4921845#stats

4.7k damage, 1 kill, 1465 b.exp, carrying T10s on an open maphttp://wotreplays.eu/site/4924647#stats

 

Not quite sure what else I can say about this tank. It's just stupidly good. This is a damn slow heavy as well, the Defender and others are noticeably more nimble. 

Oh and by the way, all of this without ever using gold. Imagine if I'd been using gold? 220 APCR is not bad, but 270 HEAT? That's very high as far as T8 heavies go. 3k average damage is easily achievable. All I'd need is one more shot per game. And I'm far from the best player in the game. 

 

TL;DR - IS3A is broken as hell, far better than Defender, baffling as to why it doesn't get more hate.


Edited by ExclamationMark, 14 June 2019 - 07:29 PM.


Balc0ra #2 Posted 14 June 2019 - 07:52 PM

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Tbh. Even when I am in tier 9 HT's I don't push hard until I know where that IS-3A initial burst damage is. As if he has 3 gold rounds ready. That's lots of HP gone in a few seconds if you are to careless even as a higher tier. 

 

I don't even fear the Standard B the same way etc.



Isharial #3 Posted 14 June 2019 - 07:53 PM

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the defender, more likely to bounce your shots and put a 440 shell in your face.

IS3-A is more likely to miss you, and you slap it for 390+. even T6's can pen the hull on this pretty easily, very few can the defender


 

I do worse in this thing than I do the 50 100, and the 50 100 is pretty awful to say the least......


 

the only thing this thing is good for is putting 3 rounds in your face, but the progetto does it 1000x better and has the benefits of being a medium, not a fat slow pointless "heavy" tank



Dava_117 #4 Posted 14 June 2019 - 07:55 PM

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View PostExclamationMark, on 14 June 2019 - 07:19 PM, said:

I've had the Defender for some time. Played quite a bit of it on day one, since then played it irregularly. But I never liked it, the gun is just terrible. Yes, it works up close, which is obviously what the tank is meant for. But anything more than knife-fights is just painful. Terrible dispersions, terrible aimtime, terrible accuracy. It may be a pain in the [redacted] to play against, but it's far more frustrating to drive one.

 

Anyway, I got the IS3A through lootboxes at Christmas. Haven't played it until recently. Its gun handling is worse than the Defender, but not by a massive margin. 

Its armour is noticeably worse. Hull is poor in this day and age, but not bad. Certainly workable vs. same tier tanks and lower. Turret is hit and miss - literally. Almost any tank it meets can easily pen its turret due to overmatch mechanics, same as with the standard IS3. I would argue that its turret is worse than the Defenders. 

 


 

But whatever, who cares about all of that. That's not what makes this tank so broken, and unfortunately what makes this tank so broken is not entirely widely known. I've played against plenty of players that didn't know that this IS3A is in fact an autoloader. Or more specifically, an inverse autoreloader. And one of if not the best in the game, tier for tier. And that is all due to that one small word - "inverse". If you don't know what that means:

 

Autoloader - "standard" autoloader. You reload a full drum magazine, and the time is fixed. Even if you only have one shell to load, it will take just as long as if you had four.

Autoreloader - "new" autoloader. Only seen in the Italian tanks so far. Shells are loaded individually into a drum, one at a time. Each shell you fire increases the time for one shell to load. As an example, a typical Progetto 46 running food will load shells in this order: 10s, 7s, 6s.

Inverse autoreloader - this is a copy of the autoreloading mechanic, but inverse, and only one tank has it so far - the IS3A. What this means is, the first shell loads the fastest, and the last shell will take the longest. A typical IS3A running food will load shells in this order: 11s, 14s, 16s.

 

It is such a broken way for a tank's gun to behave, and I never fully realized this until I actually started playing the IS3A. On paper, at Christmas, it was already apparent that this would be a massively powerful mechanic to have. But actually playing one? Whole different ball game. 

With the Italian autoreloaders, you at least have the huge disadvantage of changing shell types. As in, your first shell of new selected type will take far longer to load. IS3A on the other hand, will load its new, 390 alpha shell in almost the exact same amount of time.

 


 

In response to the title, I guess I already know the answer, but I just wanted to discuss this tank, since I wasn't around post-Christmas to see the reaction to it. My guess is - and this has been the case for me as well when playing against an IS3A - the armour. You can pen this tank relatively easily, but again that's not what makes this tank so powerful, it's the gun. The Defender's main attribute is its stupid, immune-to-most-standard-ammo armour. This can be countered relatively easily (if you choose to shoot prem ammo).

 

What is the counter to an IS3A? A fully loaded 50 100 with APCR? Maybe, but who even plays 50 100s nowadays? Honestly the best counter to an IS3A is another IS3A. And isn't that the epitome of balance - when the best counter to a tank... is another tank of the same type. :facepalm:

 


 

Obviously I'm speaking about all of this from a same-tier perspective. But personally, there's not been a single T8 tank that I felt threatened by when playing the IS3A, except the possibility of encountering another one. Your ability to just sit back for a while, wait for a full drum, and begin engaging again is, well just broken. The usual response to an autoloader is to push them once they've unloaded, but with this tank, unless you've been around it and paying attention, you've no idea how many shells it has. Maybe it only has one, and you push. So what? It already has good DPM (out of T8 heavies) with only one shell, 2000 base, which is topped only by a select few T8 heavies.

 

I'll end with dumping a few replays. Keep in mind, I've only played 52 games in this tank, and have already had two games that came close to being 2k base exp. That is just ridiculous. There's not been a single other T8 heavy I've played with the ability to consistently achieve 1.5k+ base exp games. 

 

5.6k damage, 10 kills, 1 vs. 4, 1935 b.exphttp://wotreplays.eu/site/4910388#stats

5.8k damage, 7 kills, 1829 b.exphttp://wotreplays.eu/site/4912219#stats

5.2k damage, 6 kills, 1623 b.exphttp://wotreplays.eu/site/4921845#stats

4.7k damage, 1 kill, 1465 b.exp, carrying T10s on an open maphttp://wotreplays.eu/site/4924647#stats

 

Not quite sure what else I can say about this tank. It's just stupidly good. This is a damn slow heavy as well, the Defender and others are noticeably more nimble. 

Oh and by the way, all of this without ever using gold. Imagine if I'd been using gold? 220 APCR is not bad, but 270 HEAT? That's very high as far as T8 heavies go. 3k average damage is easily achievable. All I'd need is one more shot per game. And I'm far from the best player in the game. 

 

TL;DR - IS3A is broken as hell, far better than Defender, baffling as to why it doesn't get more hate.

 

It's indeed a quite broken tank, but still I prefere to engage one of those than a defender. When I see one, I get in some nice angling location, shoot him and prepare to bounce the incoming salvo. Then it became a standard IS-3 with worst standard round.

Defender, on the other side, has this broken armour layout that can easily absorb tons of damage with close to no effort from the driver.


Edited by Dava_117, 14 June 2019 - 07:55 PM.


Bordhaw #5 Posted 14 June 2019 - 08:04 PM

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View PostExclamationMark, on 14 June 2019 - 06:19 PM, said:

TL;DR - IS3A is broken as hell, far better than Defender, baffling as to why it doesn't get more hate.

 

Because everyone has either one or both. 



Laatikkomafia #6 Posted 14 June 2019 - 08:05 PM

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IS-3A doesn't get tier 9,5 armor. Equal tier tanks have a fair chance of penning the hull front, while still having the turret roof weakspot. Meanwhile against an angled Defender, you need at least 235-ish penetration to get through the front somewhat reliably.

 

Yes, the IS-3A can clip you for more damage. But with a repair kit up, you ought to get hit only once. The Defender hits harder with a single shot.


Edited by Laatikkomafia, 14 June 2019 - 08:06 PM.


kaneloon #7 Posted 14 June 2019 - 08:13 PM

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View PostBordhaw, on 14 June 2019 - 07:04 PM, said:

 

Because everyone has either one or both. 

 

More like we don't see as many is3-a.

People have the decency to not play it.



TheDrownedApe #8 Posted 14 June 2019 - 08:37 PM

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3 lines maximum

 

Just saying ShrugFace


Edited by TheDrownedApe, 14 June 2019 - 08:38 PM.


ExclamationMark #9 Posted 14 June 2019 - 08:39 PM

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View PostTheDrownedApe, on 14 June 2019 - 08:37 PM, said:

3 lines maximum

 

Just saying ShrugFace

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

fwhaatpiraat #10 Posted 14 June 2019 - 08:47 PM

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It's clearly worse than a Defender. Defender can ignore a lot of enemies, even 221 penetration from the IS3a won't pen the lower plate reliably, when shooting slightly upwards in the lower plate. Roof can't be overmatched either, although the cupolas can be penned. Meanwhile Tiger 2 and AMX 65t...

I mostly use the IS3a in skirmishes, and Defender 'outplays' me often since IS3a can easily be penned and Defender can't. W mode best mode. Just stupid.

IS3a versus tier 6s is beyond retrded though. Not sure if Defender vs tier 6s is less or more OP.

Nor in randoms, nor in skirmishes I enjoy playing the IS3a though. Sluggish mobility and dogsht gun handling make it really annoying. The occasional 1170 dmg in 6 seconds doesn't really satisfy but funny to show balance sometimes.


Laatikkomafia #11 Posted 14 June 2019 - 09:13 PM

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Here is an example. A T32 firing against an un-angled IS-3A (As the UFP becomes paper if angled) and a T32 firing against an angled Defender. (The Defender's side shows green but is an autobounce. The green area is a magical spaced armor area, apparently the roadwheels aren't modeled on the Defender). 

 

 

Plot twist:

 

Spoiler

 


Edited by Laatikkomafia, 14 June 2019 - 09:13 PM.


SpartA_1ah1 #12 Posted 14 June 2019 - 09:42 PM

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View PostLaatikkomafia, on 14 June 2019 - 11:13 PM, said:

Here is an example. A T32 firing against an un-angled IS-3A (As the UFP becomes paper if angled) and a T32 firing against an angled Defender. (The Defender's side shows green but is an autobounce. The green area is a magical spaced armor area, apparently the roadwheels aren't modeled on the Defender). 

 

 

Plot twist:

 

Spoiler

 

 

:teethhappy:

 

By the way i didnt play them much even after the buff (IS-3)


Edited by SpartA_1ah1, 14 June 2019 - 09:43 PM.


FluffyRedFox #13 Posted 14 June 2019 - 09:43 PM

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IS-3A is more "fun" for me to face since I can actually pen it. Defender has idiotic retard armour that even when I had the arse of one in a 13 57, I bounced most of my clip since I made the rookie error of shooting anywhere on the arse rather than aiming for the lower arse. That just doesn't happen in the IS-3A, its much easier to exploit when one f*cks up (altho not like you have much opportunity 'cause hurr durr reverse autoreeloader). Obv goes without saying that both tanks are beyond stupid and the balancing department is pathetic for introducing them to live.



SilentFear #14 Posted 14 June 2019 - 09:49 PM

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View PostIsharial, on 14 June 2019 - 06:53 PM, said:

the defender, more likely to bounce your shots and put a 440 shell in your face.

IS3-A is more likely to miss you, and you slap it for 390+. even T6's can pen the hull on this pretty easily, very few can the defender


 

I do worse in this thing than I do the 50 100, and the 50 100 is pretty awful to say the least......


 

the only thing this thing is good for is putting 3 rounds in your face, but the progetto does it 1000x better and has the benefits of being a medium, not a fat slow pointless "heavy" tank

 

That.

Defender have the broken armor layout.

 

IS3A has the patato gun + crap armor ( for the most part). You can atleast fight it. Where with the Defender you may as well switch flanks if you are not something with insane pen.



vasilinhorulezz #15 Posted 14 June 2019 - 09:50 PM

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Defender is actually "defender of noobs", most tanks when they f*** up, they get punished severely for it, in the Defender's case it doesn't happen this much because of the retard proof armor. Just drive forward and shoot red tanks, and drive to victory. IS-3A has pretty much the same armor as a normal IS-3, and I can deal with IS-3s more likely that throwing a dice of if I will pen, every time I shoot a Defender. Armor should be effective when used smartly, not like this press W meta, of newest superheavies.

ExclamationMark #16 Posted 14 June 2019 - 10:30 PM

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Well, at least my assumption was correct then - it's the armour.

I don't know why I'm surprised, the whole current meta is dominated by over-armoured tanks. 

Still, if I had to face one, I'd choose the Defender... maybe next time I face one in a T6/7 I'll change my mind. :hiding:



Negativvv #17 Posted 14 June 2019 - 10:38 PM

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What fares better vs T6?

Defender is troll vs lower tiers as you're essentially invincible when frontal with the enemy...

My earliest memory of the Defender was on Overlord where one just parked on the windmill and invited the enemy to bounce everything off their front.

VonniVidiVici #18 Posted 14 June 2019 - 11:11 PM

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So far every time I've fought an IS-3A it was like fighting a regular IS-3; I haven't been in a position where it had a chance to put the autoreloader to work one me and if you're just doing the standard poke, fire, sod off, repeat dance you'll have a considerably harder time hurting Defender than IS-3A. In return Defender not only hits harder per shot, it's more likely to hit in the first place.

Oldewolfe #19 Posted 15 June 2019 - 12:33 AM

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Defender/252U used to have my All Time High Damage Blocked at 5600 and Change I believe it was....    On Mines, I sat with the Hull Hidden and just let them Shoot me while I watched my Shells hit everything but Red Tanks....     On Abbey I had another good Round of Bounced Shots, this Video in on YouTube, and again I gave them all Turret whenever Possible.....

 

It's since been Dethroned by my E100 and Obj 705, the Latter having my All Time New High of 7500 Blocked as well as being the Last Man Standing on another Abbey Battle, we Lost, I was Sorely Outnumbered and Permatracked, it was Inevitable.....       Except for the 252U Game on Abbey, the others were all Tier 10 Battles and those are some Hefty Guns to Bounce making the Number somewhat Inflated when you look at the Damage each Gun Inflicts.....

 

That Crew in my 252U is now moved on to Greener Pastures in the 277....     

 

My IS3A has some Good Games under it too, but no where near the Damage Blocked....     It has all out Damage Dealt, or did, the 252U eventually passed it there recently in a Game being Top Tier I think it was....      The IS3A is equally as Derpy, but you get 2 Do Over Shots if you need them that the 252/Defender don't get....      And yes, unless you're Top Tier in the IS3A be prepared to get Spammed Hard regardless of being IS3 Levels of Soft....       Mostly out of Fear of what the Gun is Capable of doing more than the fact you're still an IS3....

 

But having Both, I also don't get why people have such an Issue dealing with the Defender, it's a Russian Tank is all.....       You're not supposed to Sit in Front of it to Shoot it, it's a Claymore Mine on Tracks, the Pointy End IS the Dangerous End and MEANT to be Pointed at you Directly.....      You Flank it, get in Behind it, Drop Big Heavy Artillery Shells onto it, but don't SIT in Front of it....        IS3A doesn't have the Benefit if that Armor, it's just a Glorified IS3 after all, it's Armor is Fear of the Gun and because of that it get's the Reception the Defender should be getting with Flanking, End Runs, and Artillery...      Defenders just hold up Better overall....



7thSyndicate #20 Posted 15 June 2019 - 01:28 AM

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Maybe because the defender is noob friendly with better armor than some t10

Edited by 7thSyndicate, 15 June 2019 - 04:54 AM.





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