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How I would implement the L21 RARDEN 30mm cannon at Tier X

RARDEN british light

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Paul_Kouadio #1 Posted 21 June 2019 - 05:25 PM

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Hey guys.

So the following video inspired me to think up how the RARDEN cannon could be implemented for the British light tank tree (which should be coming at some point):

Spoiler

 

The Scimitar's that little bugger on the left. Pretty cool huh? So let me break this down.

 

Premise

We've had  few proposals before for the British LT line, here on the forums and over at For The Record. For example, the latest thread on the Brit LT line proposed the Vickers VFM 5 as the tier X. The problem I see with that is that the VFM had the 105mm L7 gun, crappy armor and good mobility. Sounds like a more powerful Rhm. Panzerwagen, which means it would either powercreep the poor Rhm. or be a good, generic support vehicle. So I thought of giving the Brit tier X LT something different. I propose the FV107 Scimitar.

 

L21 RARDEN cannon

The RARDEN is a 30mm autocannon which has a magazine holding 6 shells in clips of 3, and has a maximum ROF of 90 rounds/min. The gun is manually loaded, and has an automatic fire mode, and a single shot (the video shows it pretty well). I can provide more info if you guys want it.

 

FV107 Scimitar

Spoiler

Part of the Combat Reconnaissance Vehicle (Tracked) family. There were Mk I and Mk II versions of the tank. Honestly not going to explain what may easily be found online :)

 

In-game implementation

In the game, I am thinking of an individual shell alpha damage of 50hp, which means the magazine deals 300 damage. Doesn't sound like much, but I rated this thing at a reload time of 6 seconds (100% crew), which translates to 3000 DPM (60 rounds/min instead of 90). Now that's nice, huh?

Considering that some people hate autoloaders (only when they're getting clipped by an enemy, of course) I wanted this tank to have "burst damage", but it can't run away. So we keep the novelty of the RARDEN, but it isn't too "hit and run"

 

Shell types: AP (50HP, ~230mm pen), APDS (50HP ~280mm pen), HE(70HP? Not sure)

Shell velocity: AP -> 1070 m/s (average compared to other LTs); APDS -> 1175 m/s

Shells in clip: 3

Clips in magazine: 2

Magazine damage: 300 HP

Intra-clip reload: 0.2s ||Not sure about this either. This figure is taken from the tier V Leopard's dakka-dakka gun

Clip reload: 3s

Full magazine reload: 6s

 

Aim-time: 1.9s

Base dispersion (100m): 0.35m (maybe better?)

Dispersion values (movement/hull traverse/turret traverse/after firing): 0.19/0.19/0.1/0.1 || The gun wasn't stabilised. The dispersion after firing has to be so low because the shells are fired very quickly and the shells must be able to hit their target with little deviation.

 

Top speed: 80km/h (maybe this is overkill?)

Engine power: 195hp (or 190hp), with the Cummins engine

P/W: 25hp/ton (pretty low...)

Turret traverse: 40 deg/s (slow, yes)

Hull traverse: 50 deg/s

 

Camo: similar to AMX 13 105

Viewrange: 400m

 

A special mechanic

This tank can fire in automatic mode, but if you find the rear of a Super Conq. on 100HP, you don't want to unload the whole mag and reload for 6 seconds... What's the point of multiple shells then? So this tank could have two modes (activate with X): single clip and dual clip

Single clip: If you hold down you mouse button, you fire off 3 shells, so 150 damage. If you let go and click again, you empty the second clip, whilst the first is reloading (reload is 3 seconds). Simple. I hope no one asks if you can load two different ammo types, one for each clip. Would be interesting tho

Dual clip: If you hold down the mouse button, you fire off all 6 shells. 

I don't see a dedicated single-shot mode being useful.

 

Conclusion

I think that this would make the Scimitar an interesting Tier X LT, one that would sit in it's own niche, a bit. The cons would be little protection and low alpha. Bad dispersion on the move. Mediocre p/w ratio. 0% overmatch chance. Little armour. Low weight. Pros would be amazing DPM. Good aim time. Good accuracy. Great top speed. Small profile. Decent viewrange. Unique.

I'd propose to have the FV101 Scorpion at tier VIII, and the Scorpion 2 (aka Scorpion 90) at tier IX.

 

TL;DR

Put the FV107 Scimitar (with its RARDEN cannon) at Tier X. Easy.


Edited by Paul_Kouadio, 21 June 2019 - 05:47 PM.


Negativvv #2 Posted 21 June 2019 - 05:55 PM

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Looks interesting but WG would rather give us dual Rashan 122mm...

Grand_Moff_Tano #3 Posted 21 June 2019 - 06:02 PM

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I prefer the idea of placing a fake based on the Vickers 24-ton with a 32 Pounder at Tier 10.

 

Tier 2: Vickers 6-ton

Tier 3: Vickers Light Tank Mk. VII Tetrarch

Tier 4: Vickers Light Tank Mk. VIII Harry Hopkins

Tier 5: FV101 Scorpion / FV107 Scimitar

Tier 6: A46

Tier 7: FV301

Tier 8: Scorpion 90

Tier 9: Vickers 24t

Tier 10: Fake based on Vickers 24t with 32-Pounder


Edited by Grand_Moff_Tano, 21 June 2019 - 06:16 PM.


Dava_117 #4 Posted 21 June 2019 - 06:16 PM

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While the tank may look intresting, I seriously doubt that that gun is made to engage tanks. Probably infantry or other lightly armoured veicles, but penetration wise 230mm AP pen looks too unrealistic even for WoT standard.

A 210 pen APCR would be more realistic. But I don't think there would be something better than that as premium ammo...



XxKuzkina_MatxX #5 Posted 21 June 2019 - 06:48 PM

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View PostDava_117, on 21 June 2019 - 09:16 PM, said:

While the tank may look intresting, I seriously doubt that that gun is made to engage tanks. Probably infantry or other lightly armoured veicles, but penetration wise 230mm AP pen looks too unrealistic even for WoT standard.

A 210 pen APCR would be more realistic. But I don't think there would be something better than that as premium ammo...

 

According to this...

 

Spoiler

 

40mm of RHA at 45° at ranges of 1500m or more. That's one small issue, the other being the dispersion after firing which Paul pointed out in his post. I am still trying to visualize how will that work in higher tiers where everything is dangerous.

 

6 shots for 300 damage, 70% hit ratio means ~4 shots, let's say 3 of those pen, that's 150 damage in a very hostile environment that wants you dead. Can this thing get close enough to deliver its magazine efficiently? I am not sure it can in higher tiers!



Dava_117 #6 Posted 21 June 2019 - 07:14 PM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 21 June 2019 - 06:48 PM, said:

 

According to this...

 

Spoiler

 

40mm of RHA at 45° at ranges of 1500m or more. That's one small issue, the other being the dispersion after firing which Paul pointed out in his post. I am still trying to visualize how will that work in higher tiers where everything is dangerous.

 

6 shots for 300 damage, 70% hit ratio means ~4 shots, let's say 3 of those pen, that's 150 damage in a very hostile environment that wants you dead. Can this thing get close enough to deliver its magazine efficiently? I am not sure it can in higher tiers!

 

Looks like I was overestimating the pen too much.

Doesn't look exactly reliable for tier 10...

Like your quote from books. :)



XxKuzkina_MatxX #7 Posted 21 June 2019 - 07:26 PM

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View PostDava_117, on 21 June 2019 - 10:14 PM, said:

Looks like I was overestimating the pen too much.

Doesn't look exactly reliable for tier 10...

Like your quote from books. :)

 

Thank you, just trying to add some facts to the discussion. I do hope that my british friends don't take this the wrong way. :)

rsanders5 #8 Posted 21 June 2019 - 07:55 PM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 21 June 2019 - 06:26 PM, said:

 

Thank you, just trying to add some facts to the discussion. I do hope that my british friends don't take this the wrong way. :)

 

 I think both the Scimitar's & Scorpion's role is pretty well stated in the army designation 

for both vehicles, i.e. Combat Vehicle Reconnaissance (Tracked) or CVR(T). It was not 

designed to fight tanks, but to act as a reccy vehicle. 

  To be honest I would prefer lights to deal less damage & return to the role of scouts, with

an XP/credit boost for spotting, & assisted damage to compensate for the loss of XP/credits 

from damage. 



Paul_Kouadio #9 Posted 21 June 2019 - 08:10 PM

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View PostDava_117, on 21 June 2019 - 06:16 PM, said:

While the tank may look intresting, I seriously doubt that that gun is made to engage tanks. Probably infantry or other lightly armoured veicles, but penetration wise 230mm AP pen looks too unrealistic even for WoT standard.

A 210 pen APCR would be more realistic. But I don't think there would be something better than that as premium ammo...

 

Yup, the cannon's main aim (no pun intended) was to penetrate APCs and the sides of MBTs at 1000m and stuff. The penetration is a real stretch :(

 

View Postrsanders5, on 21 June 2019 - 07:55 PM, said:

 

 I think both the Scimitar's & Scorpion's role is pretty well stated in the army designation 

for both vehicles, i.e. Combat Vehicle Reconnaissance (Tracked) or CVR(T). It was not 

designed to fight tanks, but to act as a reccy vehicle. 

  To be honest I would prefer lights to deal less damage & return to the role of scouts, with

an XP/credit boost for spotting, & assisted damage to compensate for the loss of XP/credits 

from damage. 

 

Well, when you consider that WG decided to give the EBR 105 a big gun and crappy viewrange, it seems they certainly wanted it to fight as well as spot enemies. Sure it can scout actively (although active scouting is surpassed by the T100-LT, imo... that low viewrange really kills it), but it does have more than respectable firepower.

And let's not get started on the maps which don't promote true scouting, especially with "viewrange saturation" at tier X.

True scouting seems to be out :(


Edited by Paul_Kouadio, 21 June 2019 - 08:11 PM.


Paul_Kouadio #10 Posted 22 June 2019 - 09:28 PM

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So then would you guys be okay with WG placing a tank with the 105mm L7 at the top of the British light tank tree?

Dava_117 #11 Posted 22 June 2019 - 09:34 PM

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View PostPaul_Kouadio, on 22 June 2019 - 09:28 PM, said:

So then would you guys be okay with WG placing a tank with the 105mm L7 at the top of the British light tank tree?

 

If it's well balanced, I don't see any problem with that. :)



XxKuzkina_MatxX #12 Posted 22 June 2019 - 09:49 PM

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The L7 or even the 120mm wombat recoilless rifle to fit the small and light hull of the Scimitar. You keep the low profile, small size and good mobility and at the same time you get plenty of firepower. It was a nasty AT weapon with effective HEAT rounds.

 

I know it isn't a tank but imagine something like this...

 

Spoiler

 

All you need to do is adjust the accuracy and alpha damage after mating the rifle with the hull.



XxKuzkina_MatxX #13 Posted 22 June 2019 - 10:59 PM

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There was also the Alvis Sagitar...

 

Concept

 

Mockup

 

It was tested with a host of different guns. A 75mm automatic gun, the Rheinmetall Rh 105-11 and the 105mm L118 light gun.



WindSplitter1 #14 Posted 23 June 2019 - 02:07 PM

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Dat 90º ricochet @ 0:50

Xandania #15 Posted 23 June 2019 - 04:37 PM

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This would certaily make for special tanks - though I'd either reduce the precision so it will be useless as a sniper. As light close quarters ambusher is seems rather sweet and I really love the idea of multiple clips.

 

Hope this idea gets forwarded by our forums crew here *hinthint*



Paul_Kouadio #16 Posted 23 June 2019 - 07:32 PM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 22 June 2019 - 09:49 PM, said:

The L7 or even the 120mm wombat recoilless rifle to fit the small and light hull of the Scimitar. You keep the low profile, small size and good mobility and at the same time you get plenty of firepower. It was a nasty AT weapon with effective HEAT rounds.

 

I know it isn't a tank but imagine something like this...

 

Spoiler

 

All you need to do is adjust the accuracy and alpha damage after mating the rifle with the hull.

 

View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 22 June 2019 - 10:59 PM, said:

There was also the Alvis Sagitar...

 

Concept

 

Mockup

 

It was tested with a host of different guns. A 75mm automatic gun, the Rheinmetall Rh 105-11 and the 105mm L118 light gun.

 

Thanks for this information :great:! It allowed me to find out way more about 80s and 90s era British projects.

 

The 105mm L118 light gun had pretty low muzzle velocity (max 709 m/s, according to Wikipedia), and it's a howitzer... Do we need more derp guns at tier X? I feel the Sheridan does this well enough (although I'm all for giving the candidate more gun options)

 

I did a bit of research on the 75mm, and it's an ARES 75mm automatic cannon (up to 60 rounds/min). It was proposed to be the main armament for the RDF/LT project (US army), and this page does a bit of theorizing on its performance (close to the German 7.5cm KwK 42, which had penetration of 185mm/AP and 265mm/APCR in real life, at 100m)

 

That WOMBAT recoilless rifle is a bit meh, because it had incredibly low shell velocity (~463m/s) and there are none in the game, so I don't know how peeps would react to that.

 

The Rheinmetall 105-11 is a "super low recoil" gun, essentially the same as the standard Rh. 105 which means it is basically an L7 gun. 

 

Hats off to you @XxKuzkina_MatxX, the Sagitar really looks more promising than the Scimitar. A 75mm autocannon would be miles better at tier X. I am clinging on to the idea of an autocannon because I really want some more variety in the game. There are enough 105mm guns on no-armor tanks :). But if it's the most viable option, then so be it.

 

Now the fun begins:

 

STORM 90

So this is a proposal from the Alvis Low Profile Experimental Vehicle (LPXV) programme. It had a 90mm gun, and looks pretty cool imo:

Spoiler

It had a weight of 12.9 tonnes, was based on Alvis' previous experience with the CVR(T) and its automotive parts were similar to thee Stormer (so engine power was maybe around 250-300hp? Gotta be sure). It was small and compact, was made of aluminium (alloy of course) and stored 55 rounds.

 

Apparently Alvis also proposed a light tank with a 105mm to the Americans...

 

Warrior LMT105 (and the 90)

This guy was built off the FV510 Warrior and had a stabilised low recoil LIW 105 mm GT7/51 calibre rifled tank gun firing standard NATO ammunition. Nice! Had a weight of 29 tonnes, p/w of 20.66 hp/tonne, was also made of aluminium (presumably) and had -8 deg of gun depression.

 

Spoiler
Spoiler

 

(edit) Here's another pic for the LXPV (picture on the right side). Not sure which model it is, however:

 

Spoiler

 

STORMER 30

This bad boy is an Alvis Stormer with the 30mm Bushmaster II autocannon (which can be converted to 40mm). Only problem is that the first prototype of the gun was completed in 1989, which is a real stretch. Link

Spoiler

 

COMRES 75

This is the most outlandish on the list. Very little info on this thing.

Spoiler

 

Externally mounted QF 20-pdr (autoloader). Mobility similar to Comet (same chassis). More pics:

Spoiler

 

 

Out of all these extra projects I discovered, I think the Warrior 90 and 105, as well as the Storm 90 are pretty viable. The Stormer 30 is more problematic. I think they should scrap that stupid FV1066 Senlac nonsense and stick the COMRES as a Tier VIII prem (or tech tree, so I can get it too :hiding:)!


Edited by Paul_Kouadio, 23 June 2019 - 07:48 PM.


Pandabird #17 Posted 23 June 2019 - 07:43 PM

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yes i really want a high tier autocannon tank. If brits gets a LT line, i'm sure it could find its place into the game.

 

10 rounds of 50 alpha bursts sounds about right, considering you need to perform drive-by's in this thing and a lot will fly past unless you are dead next to your target.



ValkyrionX #18 Posted 23 June 2019 - 07:44 PM

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Paul_Kouadio #19 Posted 23 June 2019 - 07:49 PM

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View PostValkyrionX, on 23 June 2019 - 07:44 PM, said:

 

What about the ARES 75mm autocannon (I think it never saw production)?

ValkyrionX #20 Posted 23 June 2019 - 08:04 PM

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View PostPaul_Kouadio, on 23 June 2019 - 07:49 PM, said:

 

What about the ARES 75mm autocannon (I think it never saw production)?

 

I see no interest or benefit for the game in having other light vehicles





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