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How I would implement the L21 RARDEN 30mm cannon at Tier X

RARDEN british light

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Paul_Kouadio #21 Posted 23 June 2019 - 08:15 PM

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View PostValkyrionX, on 23 June 2019 - 08:04 PM, said:

 

I see no interest or benefit for the game in having other light vehicles

 

Well, WG did say they were going to introduce the British light tank tree, and it seems they're already working on it. Does your reticence have anything to do with the wheeled lights?



XxKuzkina_MatxX #22 Posted 23 June 2019 - 08:38 PM

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@Paul Thank you for the serious thread, excellent research and for trying to make the idea work.

 

I'd like to add a couple of things to your, already excellent, post:

 

  • Being a low pressure gun doesn't mean it can't fire other lighter projectiles (like tungsten APDS) with higher velocities. It just mean that the recoil is manageable on a lighter carriage/vehicle, same with the Rheinmetall Rh 105-11. Very interesting upgrade of the aging M60A3 is the italian Leonardo package which include a 120mm L45 cannon instead of the original M68. The newer gun generates less pressure and has less recoil with a much better performance.
  • The design of the hull at least is from the mid seventies as far as i can tell, not from the 80s. The enlarged Scorpion hull, which was later called the Stormer, was one of the 17 prototypes ordered from Alvis in September 1967. MVEE built another prototype and called it the FV4333, you can tell by its 6 road wheels in the image below.

 

The Ares 75mm autocannon is a bit radical for WOT but if balanced right, it can be a novel feature of the british tier 10. :)

 

Enlarged Scorpion Hull

 


Edited by XxKuzkina_MatxX, 23 June 2019 - 08:40 PM.


Paul_Kouadio #23 Posted 26 June 2019 - 04:46 PM

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After a bit more digging, I've found that the Ares XM274 75mm cannon was a smoothbore (not 100% sure) and fired cased telescopic ammunition. This is indeed novel for WoT, and it was even for its time. So I'm thinking we can rule that out.

Which leaves us with a potential 30/40mm autocannon (i.e. the Bushmaster), or the more likely option, which is a 105mm gun mounted on the Stormer chassis, or the Warrior LMT105.



Dava_117 #24 Posted 26 June 2019 - 05:00 PM

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View PostPaul_Kouadio, on 26 June 2019 - 04:46 PM, said:

After a bit more digging, I've found that the Ares XM274 75mm cannon was a smoothbore (not 100% sure) and fired cased telescopic ammunition. This is indeed novel for WoT, and it was even for its time. So I'm thinking we can rule that out.

Which leaves us with a potential 30/40mm autocannon (i.e. the Bushmaster), or the more likely option, which is a 105mm gun mounted on the Stormer chassis, or the Warrior LMT105.

 

Well, WG can always add it with a fake 75mm (rifled) with a bit less pen and shell velocity. They fid the same on a tier 8 CW US tank and, in a similar way, they added the T-62A because it used a 100mm rifled gun instead of the 115mm smoothbore.

XxKuzkina_MatxX #25 Posted 26 June 2019 - 06:17 PM

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I don't see why not.

 

  • Tier and class balance determine the tank's performance (DPM, penetration, clip size, etc.).
  • You're not asking for a 155mm monstrosity on a light tank. It's a 75mm with low alpha and 3 shots magazine.
  • 150 damage per shot * 3 shots per clip = 450 damage in the best case scenario. I think that's a reasonable proposal.
  • If WG wants to give this new branch something unique, the 75mm gun with a magazine is a good idea. If they want to add another vanilla tier 10 light with a weak 105mm then i'd say that's the lazy approach.

 

On a different note, the Ares 75mm was a smoothbore gun and it fired the new (back then) cased telescoped APFSDS ammunition.

 

Spoiler

 



Paul_Kouadio #26 Posted 28 June 2019 - 12:02 AM

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Well, then, after having taken a closer look at that 75mm gun, I guess you, Dava and Kuzkina, are right.

 

It seems that it could defeat enemy armour in 3-round bursts (some sources say its 5-round bursts), so I'm thinking a magazine size of 3 (or 5). If we take the standard 135 alpha of 75mm guns in-game, we have a magazine potential of 3 * 135 = 405 HP. It fired one round per second. A magazine reload of 8 seconds gives this config 3037 dpm, so maybe 8.5 second reload is fine (2858 dpm... high dpm could be a nice perk for this guy).

This would force a different kind of playstyle for this tank... You have very low burst damage, but it is respectable compared to single shot guns for tier X LTs. This means you have to make sure each shell lands and pens, to have effective dpm, and you can't really run off when your mag is emptied. Neither proper single shot nor true autoloader.

 

Apparently the 75mm's APFSDS rounds were similar in performance to the M774 105mm APFSDS rounds (the latter had 320mm of penetration at 1000m), so this gun would perform adequately at tier X (that includes shell velocity as well). HE rounds were available, and HEAT shells were in development. Not sure how that would be implemented.

 

The Sagitar itself was based on the Stormer APC. This means that the p/w is mediocre (around 20hp/ton), but it also means this is a compact, fast (80 km/h), lightweight vehicle.

Armour is pretty much non-existent (although the front of the vehicle is very well angled). 

Gun depression should be around -10 degrees, and the gun should be fully stabilised, so decent soft-stats. (I'm also looking at the real life stats of the Stormer 30).

As before, view range can be at 400m.

 

Interestingly, ARES also had a 90mm gun in the works...



XxKuzkina_MatxX #27 Posted 28 June 2019 - 02:31 PM

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@Paul

I guess they went a different way! :(

 

http://forum.worldof...er-x-manticore/



Paul_Kouadio #28 Posted 28 June 2019 - 05:22 PM

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Yeah, I saw a few minutes ago. A shame really, considering that the Manticore in its current state is plain bad. Even if they buff the tank, it is very generic compared to other tier X LTs. :( 

Grand_Moff_Tano #29 Posted 28 June 2019 - 05:26 PM

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The Manticore is just a badly designed tank, even my idea of a fake Vickers 24t Light Tank with a 32-Pounder is both far more unique and more realistic than that steaming pile.

 

Not going to start on the fact that the recoil of the gun is going to destroy the tanks turret and suspension, and it would need limited traverse otherwise it'd just tip over when you turn the turret either port or starboard.



XxKuzkina_MatxX #30 Posted 29 June 2019 - 04:52 AM

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View PostGrand_Moff_Tano, on 28 June 2019 - 08:26 PM, said:

even my idea of a fake Vickers 24t Light Tank with a 32-Pounder is both far more unique and more realistic than that steaming pile.

 

Nope, both are equally unremarkable and uninspiring in my opinion.

 

View PostGrand_Moff_Tano, on 28 June 2019 - 08:26 PM, said:

Not going to start on the fact that the recoil of the gun is going to destroy the tanks turret and suspension, and it would need limited traverse otherwise it'd just tip over when you turn the turret either port or starboard.

 

Fortunately that doesn't happen in a video game with pixel tanks so your advanced modeling of the mechanical stresses to the turret and hull of an arcade tank is irrelevant. I am also surprised that you don't mind adding completely fake tanks but you're too worried about the recoil effect and the balance of the vehicle.

 

News flash: it's all make believe so gobble it up!


Edited by XxKuzkina_MatxX, 29 June 2019 - 05:23 AM.


Grand_Moff_Tano #31 Posted 29 June 2019 - 10:22 AM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 29 June 2019 - 03:52 AM, said:

 

Nope, both are equally unremarkable and uninspiring in my opinion.

 

 

Fortunately that doesn't happen in a video game with pixel tanks so your advanced modeling of the mechanical stresses to the turret and hull of an arcade tank is irrelevant. I am also surprised that you don't mind adding completely fake tanks but you're too worried about the recoil effect and the balance of the vehicle.

 

News flash: it's all make believe so gobble it up!

 

Your opinion is noted, however you'll find that it is a far more interesting option than another 105mm armed Light Tank, of which we have plenty, and the Vickers 24t is an actual design, I still doubt the Manticore is even an actual vehicle, and if it is then it was never designed to use a gun of such a large caliber.

 

You are right, that doesn't happen in a video game, it doesn't in an Arcade game either, but if you are going to create a game, about armoured vehicles between the 1930s and 1960's, you still have to keep an air of realism when it comes to the tanks design, otherwise we can just state that the E-100 Krokodile is realistic (which it isn't by the way).

 

News flash: Make believe or not, the vehicle still needs to be realistic and not look like a vehicle that will just break apart the moment you fire its main gun.



XxKuzkina_MatxX #32 Posted 29 June 2019 - 11:14 AM

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View PostGrand_Moff_Tano, on 29 June 2019 - 01:22 PM, said:

Your opinion is noted, however you'll find that it is a far more interesting option than another 105mm armed Light Tank, of which we have plenty, and the Vickers 24t is an actual design, I still doubt the Manticore is even an actual vehicle, and if it is then it was never designed to use a gun of such a large caliber.

 

I already said the same thing about the vanilla 105mm a couple of posts above.

 

View PostGrand_Moff_Tano, on 29 June 2019 - 01:22 PM, said:

You are right, that doesn't happen in a video game, it doesn't in an Arcade game either, but if you are going to create a game, about armoured vehicles between the 1930s and 1960's, you still have to keep an air of realism when it comes to the tanks design, otherwise we can just state that the E-100 Krokodile is realistic (which it isn't by the way).

 

News flash: Make believe or not, the vehicle still needs to be realistic and not look like a vehicle that will just break apart the moment you fire its main gun.

 

I don't believe that and i don't think WG believe that either. They invent guns, engines, penetration values even whole tanks all the time. Just take a look at the tier 8 Chieftain/T95, the 90mm T208 was never rifled. Yet WG just slapped the word (rifled) between parentheses next to the name and that's it!



Grand_Moff_Tano #33 Posted 29 June 2019 - 11:17 AM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 29 June 2019 - 10:14 AM, said:

 

I already said the same thing about the vanilla 105mm a couple of posts above.

 

 

I don't believe that and i don't think WG believe that either. They invent guns, engines, penetration values even whole tanks all the time. Just take a look at the tier 8 Chieftain/T95, the 90mm T208 was never rifled. Yet WG just slapped the word (rifled) between parentheses next to the name and that's it!

 

At least the Chieftain/T95 actually existed as a project, I'm still doubting on the existence of the Manticore and that vehicle is still unrealistic as hell as the chassis remains far too small for the gun and turret it uses, which are far heavier than the hull in combination.

XxKuzkina_MatxX #34 Posted 29 June 2019 - 11:22 AM

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View PostGrand_Moff_Tano, on 29 June 2019 - 02:17 PM, said:

At least the Chieftain/T95 actually existed as a project, I'm still doubting on the existence of the Manticore and that vehicle is still unrealistic as hell as the chassis remains far too small for the gun and turret it uses, which are far heavier than the hull in combination.

 

Meh, i don't really care if it existed or not and as i said last night i don't care much about tier 10 lights. The implementation of autocannons though would've been a novel feature for british lights.



Grand_Moff_Tano #35 Posted 29 June 2019 - 11:24 AM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 29 June 2019 - 10:22 AM, said:

 

Meh, i don't really care if it existed or not and as i said last night i don't care much about tier 10 lights. The implementation of autocannons though would've been a novel feature for british lights.

 

Novel feature or not, I don't think there is any auto cannon that would fit Tier 10 bar the OTO Melara 76mm 

XxKuzkina_MatxX #36 Posted 29 June 2019 - 11:27 AM

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View PostGrand_Moff_Tano, on 29 June 2019 - 02:24 PM, said:

 

Novel feature or not, I don't think there is any auto cannon that would fit Tier 10 bar the OTO Melara 76mm 

 

Doesn't matter now since the line is already in the super test!

Grand_Moff_Tano #37 Posted 29 June 2019 - 11:33 AM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 29 June 2019 - 10:27 AM, said:

 

Doesn't matter now since the line is already in the super test!

 

Doesn't mean it will leave super test or be any good.

XxKuzkina_MatxX #38 Posted 29 June 2019 - 11:35 AM

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View PostGrand_Moff_Tano, on 29 June 2019 - 02:33 PM, said:

 

Doesn't mean it will leave super test or be any good.

 

It doesn't matter what ideas we have since the vehicles chosen by WG are already in the super test. Usually they stay the same with some tweaking to their stats and being good isn't determined sadly by me or you.



Grand_Moff_Tano #39 Posted 29 June 2019 - 11:38 AM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 29 June 2019 - 10:35 AM, said:

 

It doesn't matter what ideas we have since the vehicles chosen by WG are already in the super test. Usually they stay the same with some tweaking to their stats and being good isn't determined sadly by me or you.

 

Perhaps not, but the Manticore will remain an unrealistic Light Tank, being extremely front heavy, that vehicle will likely be replaced before the mini branch even goes live.

XxKuzkina_MatxX #40 Posted 29 June 2019 - 11:40 AM

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View PostGrand_Moff_Tano, on 29 June 2019 - 02:38 PM, said:

Perhaps not, but the Manticore will remain an unrealistic Light Tank, being extremely front heavy, that vehicle will likely be replaced before the mini branch even goes live.

 

Sure! :popcorn:





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