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Lakeville Encounter [edited] Valley mentality.

Lakeville Gameplay Valley Encounter Town

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LordMuffin #61 Posted 26 June 2019 - 08:15 AM

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View Postonderschepper, on 25 June 2019 - 03:59 PM, said:

 

I had this scenario yesterday where the majority of the team decided to have a beach party, and their efforts were effective though I sincerely doubt the outcome was their intention.

 

They drew the attention of most of the enemy plus the two Artillery enabling two LTs and my TD to blitz across the fields almost unopposed, catch the Artillery unawares and then sandwich the remaining forces. :izmena:

 

All it would have taken is 25% of the enemy to have been defending the fields and our maneuver would have been less successful, probably leading to our team being out flanked. :facepalm:

So you got control over the high ground area, and then managed to win the game.



Long_Range_Sniper #62 Posted 26 June 2019 - 08:39 AM

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View PostlnfernaI, on 24 June 2019 - 12:41 PM, said:

I would appreciate if someone explained to me the mentality of every [edited] [edited] who goes to the [edited] valley on Encounter

 

Have you not noticed the sign pointing up the valley next to cap?

 

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LordMuffin #63 Posted 26 June 2019 - 08:43 AM

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View PostOmniWalou, on 25 June 2019 - 04:26 PM, said:

 

First off, remember that this isn't about 10 tanks going to beach (or valley), it's about the few tanks that always go there. So it's a case of you still having to fight the rest of the team over the map control, and just having a chance to have advantage in numbers depending on what the rest of your team does.

 

You would go there in order to not let the enemies come from there, as I have said already. There is always someone going there and once they get to those ''disadvantageous'' spots you like to call them, your team has to react to that and lose tanks from other parts of the map. What were those tanks doing before having to relocate to fight the beach enemies? Were they reserves or actually fighting over the map control of the upper side? Overlord top side is not a fast win and if the beach is empty, it doesn't take long to get through it and most likely undetected, meaning once you get the idea of where enemies are, they have already climbed further up. If they are spotted, you once again have to react to it and send tanks from other fights to deal with it. Average WoT players situational awareness is so poor that they won't do that.

 

And the positions aren't even disadvantageous, especially the ones behind the bases as they have elevation differences and structures to give cover. The main point that gives the advantage though is that the team that didn't go to beach has to send tanks back to not let them get even better positions by pushing forwards from the channels. This is where I get the hunch that you take it all for granted and fight for the top side instead and expect the beach pushers to never reach positions where they can create crossfire.

 

 

But it doesn't actually take that long to get through it. Ever tested it? It takes long when there is some tanks defending it but as you said earlier; no one should ever go there. In that scenario it doesn't take long to push through it. And once again, you require tanks to fall back in order to deal with it, tanks that were already fighting. Or are they the reserves again which you seem to have in every game on those maps? :P The city can be won faster than Overlord top side but it still creates a problem when the general mentality is 'no cap kill all'. Team has to then decide whether to wait out the enemy, or push into them. And if you push, they have also defensive positions. Keep in mind still that this isn't about 10 tanks going to valley (or beach), it's usually the 2-4 tanks that go there. And the layering of tanks along the maps is a common team random teams do. 2 TDs in the corner of the middle road, some tanks in near the redline on the way to town and tanks in different places in town. 2-4 tanks in the valley from one team, doesn't automatically mean advantage in numbers in the town for the other.

 

 

The problem with you is though, that you read someone's comment and immediately go to the stats sites to check the player and after that right away try to assert domination by saying ''well i have 60% winrate and it's better than yours, so you are wrong''. It took this long, what 3 or 4 comments from you to get a half decent reply that wasn't all about stats. Please learn to actually make an argument and not just use stats to pretend that you are something special. If I go get myself a 60% winrate as well, with an average tier of 3-4, am I then qualified to talk about stats as much as someone with a 60% winrate with average tier of 10, and not get berated right after making the first comment to the thread?

The few tanks that go beach would be better off not going beach at all.

 

I would never go beach from the start. For the reasons I pointed out. I much prefer going areas from where I can have the highest impact on the game to give my team the best chances of winning.

 

In general, tanks can move back and defend. This means, a tank can move from the front lines when that area is won/secured and go back and kill the beach tanks.

 

Any area of the map can be a fast win, it all depends on tank numbers.

If team A have 3 or 4 tanks on beach. Then Team A have 3 or 4 tanks less on the high ground. And it shouldnt take to long to figure out if you are a decent player.

So you use that advantage and secure control over the high ground or large parts of it. 

 

Using a tactic that only works if the enemy is trash is not a good tactic imo.

 

I have driven through valley in any tank, the only ones who did it at acceptable speed was the light tanks. The others was just to slow.

 

Once again, a tank can relocate and turn around.

the corner you get to is easily defended from either base (the normal TD sniping positions).

If you want to push those TDs away, you get into a crossfire. So the tanks don't even have to move, just turn their tank around and not move away.

 

Get yourself a 60% WR at T8 and T9 (with 1k+ battles played at either tier) then. I don't care about your average tier.

If you do, I don't think you will argue as you do anymore.

I changes my view on tactics when I began to get decent. When I was average, I could argue very much like you do, when I got better, it gradually faded away in favour of other tactical decisions.

 

From just reading your first post, it is clear that you are an average at best player, I don't need to go to a website to confirm it. 



If_I_Die_You_Die_Too #64 Posted 26 June 2019 - 08:55 AM

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I just do my own thing

 

Map pinging lunatics

Zero team support

Useful tanks hiding at the back

yoloing tanks

 

The game is "random"

and so is the team

 

Can't ever take it seriously but can have some fun

 

To expect more

is to invite disappointment



lnfernaI #65 Posted 26 June 2019 - 09:10 AM

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View PostLong_Range_Sniper, on 26 June 2019 - 09:39 AM, said:

 

Have you not noticed the sign pointing up the valley next to cap?

 

Untitled.jpg

 

I suppose I need to develop sixth sense to see these paranormal objects!

Lomion_EU #66 Posted 26 June 2019 - 09:32 AM

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View PostCaptain_Kremen0, on 24 June 2019 - 01:35 PM, said:

 

Usually the valley just stalls so they can be picked off one by one. A couple of T29's can do this quite nicely if the attackers have no balls. Hell i've even seen ONE T29 hold the valley with 1 TD and arty for support.

 

Been that guy, my best EXP game ever was in the T29 was holding the valley

 

https://youtu.be/dOjPrBNZFW0?t=554



OmniWalou #67 Posted 26 June 2019 - 11:49 AM

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View PostLordMuffin, on 26 June 2019 - 08:43 AM, said:

The few tanks that go beach would be better off not going beach at all.

I would never go beach from the start. For the reasons I pointed out. I much prefer going areas from where I can have the highest impact on the game to give my team the best chances of winning.

 

Well this for sure most likely works for you but then again it shows how you take it granted that people go to the beach. And knowing you, you will very likely take the credit for the victory even in times when the beach is the most impactful for win. There are different types of players. UrQuan is the type that can hold a flank well to help win the game. If you were a good player you would realise that every match has these things affecting the win. You not going to the beach also makes you come out as stubborn. Maybe consider testing going to the flanks, unless damage is too important for you.

 

The whole point though (which you seem to not understand and take it for granted) is that there is always someone going to these flanks. There is someone who holds the flanks for the time that you are able to farm some damage without getting flanked and put in crossfire. You suggest that no one should go there, meaning that you already don't understand the impact of the people going there in your games, doesn't make you look that good of a player at all.

 

Block Quote

 Any area of the map can be a fast win, it all depends on tank numbers.

If team A have 3 or 4 tanks on beach. Then Team A have 3 or 4 tanks less on the high ground. And it shouldnt take to long to figure out if you are a decent player.

So you use that advantage and secure control over the high ground or large parts of it.

 

Sure, you are right. Every area of the map can be won fast. But it's not that common on Lakeville, it does for sure happen (not in the sense of blitzkrieg) but it stagnates into crossing from the town to the bases. As I said, the mentality of ''no cap kill all'' makes players chase the enemies instead of capping. A fast win is a lot less common on Overlord top side. I doubt you have actually paid attention, but try to remember, how often if ever you see the top side win in a few minutes. You can gain the control of the 'bowl', heavy corner and the windmill but that still doesn't win you the match. And if you are able to win those before the beach is decided, then the credit for the win goes to the people holding off in the beach. This is what you take for granted when you go farm that damage and take the credit for the win. The fact that you or your team has been able to go back to defend boils down to (and credit goes to) some tanks being on that flank and spotting them coming. Again, the point is that someone has to go to the beach and if it were as you suggest that no one from your team should go there, it would have resulted in flanking maneuver and crossfire, and tanks would have to go back ->

 

Block Quote

 Once again, a tank can relocate and turn around.

 

Once again, where are these tanks relocating and turning around from? Is it your reserve of tanks they come from? Or is it from an engagement with the enemy? If there are no tanks from your team in the beach, it has been a fast push from the enemies and you have not had time to exploit the advantage in numbers in the top side and sending tanks back to defend results in equal numbers and not an advantage anymore. Also, like I said already, the tanks you have on the top side never ever (well once in a blue moon) come to fight. Instead they layer themselves and the main, active fight is most likely closely matched in numbers.

 

Block Quote

Get yourself a 60% WR at T8 and T9 (with 1k+ battles played at either tier) then. I don't care about your average tier.

If you do, I don't think you will argue as you do anymore.

I changes my view on tactics when I began to get decent. When I was average, I could argue very much like you do, when I got better, it gradually faded away in favour of other tactical decisions.

 

From just reading your first post, it is clear that you are an average at best player, I don't need to go to a website to confirm it. 

 

Lol, is that why you immediately just used our winrates as an argument? It's honestly sad to see that to be the accepted method here. I can just imagine you reading the comment, going to wot-life or whatever you use and get a huge smile on your face and thinking ''imma wreck this noob and look smart in doing so'' :P Just because the stat site shows a 53% for me, it makes you safe to say such things as you did in this quoted part. If it said 60%, you wouldn't say it.


From reading your replies it does make me wonder how you got your winrate though. For sure the low (especially for that battle count) average tier explains some of it and platooning which you seem to do quite a lot explains some of it too. Don't get me wrong, you are a decent player but for sure you hold yourself in way too much value which in turn results in smugness as was shown earlier. You show in your replies that you are stuck to your ways in this matter. You take a lot for granted. And I do mean that and you should consider changing that. Due to this you take credit for the wins and most likely blame others for the losses.


Edited by OmniWalou, 26 June 2019 - 11:51 AM.


crnakoza #68 Posted 26 June 2019 - 12:00 PM

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View PostOmniWalou, on 26 June 2019 - 11:49 AM, said:

Maybe consider testing going to the flanks, unless damage is too important for you.

 

This is exactly the thing. Doing damage should be important to everyone because in 90% of cases the team that receives most damage is the team that gets killed off. You can't do damage and be useless, unless the damage you do is late in the game when most of your team is already dead. Get that concept in your head.

TankkiPoju #69 Posted 26 June 2019 - 12:06 PM

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View PostCaptain_Kremen0, on 25 June 2019 - 08:45 AM, said:

Am I the only one who has ever lost to a beach or valley push more than once? One thing I did notice in those games was that a group of GOOD players can win ANY flank they choose to.

 

Beach and valley pushes do work, if the players aren't idiots and they actually have numbers to push.

 

But nearly always they are idiots who see the first enemy and then full stop, even if they outnumber the enemy.



pecopad #70 Posted 26 June 2019 - 12:08 PM

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View Postcrnakoza, on 26 June 2019 - 12:00 PM, said:

 

This is exactly the thing. Doing damage should be important to everyone because in 90% of cases the team that receives most damage is the team that gets killed off. You can't do damage and be useless, unless the damage you do is late in the game when most of your team is already dead. Get that concept in your head.

 

Late game damage most of the time is useless, specially if instead of being active you have been passive waiting for late game to farm damage.

 

I see many green players who fulfill the XVM predictions, so you always see them taking defensive positions when the predicted result is a loss. Many don't even try, they are just looking for their damage fix...



OmniWalou #71 Posted 26 June 2019 - 12:15 PM

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View Postcrnakoza, on 26 June 2019 - 12:00 PM, said:

This is exactly the thing. Doing damage should be important to everyone because in 90% of cases the team that receives most damage is the team that gets killed off. You can't do damage and be useless, unless the damage you do is late in the game when most of your team is already dead. Get that concept in your head.

 

You know you can do damage and still hold a flank. It's for sure less and enables someone else to do the damage required to kill the enemies. This is where it shows in LM's replies that he takes others for granted and takes credit for the win because he himself did damage. (it shows in another thread where he shows he doesn't understand how to allocate exp for winning plays, he doesn't understand other factors in a win other than damage) You don't unfortunately seem different either in this matter. People are being too focused on stats nowadays and it results them into chasing damage.

Edited by OmniWalou, 26 June 2019 - 12:18 PM.


Jauhesammutin #72 Posted 26 June 2019 - 12:17 PM

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View PostOmniWalou, on 26 June 2019 - 10:49 AM, said:

 

<wall of text>

You don't need to go to the beach of Overlord. You don't need a spotter there.

You can leave 1 TD on the 4 line to cover the windmill area and spot the beach. Once the TD spots the attackers you have plenty of time to react. At that point your team should have at least an advantage on the top so you can rotate tanks to defend the beach.

 

This is a general idea how to play the map. Obviously tanks, tiers, players and RNG all have impact on the outcome. 

 

The same applies to Lakeville Encounter. The valley is useless. Yeah, it's a good thing to scout the valley in case of a fast push but the tanks in they city are going to win the game. 

 

Like Muffin said, once you start to understand the game you realize that you don't need to cover every single spot on the map. You only need to lock down the important positions. Valley and beach aren't those.

Farming damage is important. Spotting for nothing isn't. 



OmniWalou #73 Posted 26 June 2019 - 12:25 PM

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View PostJauhesammutin, on 26 June 2019 - 12:17 PM, said:

Like Muffin said, once you start to understand the game you realize that you don't need to cover every single spot on the map. You only need to lock down the important positions. Valley and beach aren't those.

Farming damage is important. Spotting for nothing isn't. 

 

Not sure if you read LM's replies but he strongly suggested that no one ever needs to go to those flanks nor has to be near there to spot. In his scenario, who spots them early in order for the team to fall back? And where do those tanks fall back from? There just isn't a reserve of tanks and he doesn't recognize that the tanks have to disengage from an engagement and give up the advantage. This is purely him taking it for granted that in his wins someone has been there to spot or hold off the flank. If the flank is left open (as he thinks is the best tactic), the enemy tanks can advance fast and it doesn't leave enough time for the rest of the team to exploit the advantage of the numbers before some tanks have to inevitably disengage and fall back.

 

In an ideal play, it would require 1 or 2 tanks to spot and hold the other flank while the other flank wins, like you said. This is why in CW one flank just isn't left open and forgotten about. In randoms it just isn't this way and the team doesn't divide so that rest of the tanks go to the city/top side and push it fast. The variety of players and skill levels means that they will layer out, take different positions for example along the road to the city on Lakeville, or camp in different spots along and next to the redline in Overlord. I do agree to the ideal map tactic for both maps, but that wasn't what LM argued for and it isn't possible in randoms.


Edited by OmniWalou, 26 June 2019 - 12:28 PM.


Jauhesammutin #74 Posted 26 June 2019 - 12:57 PM

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View PostOmniWalou, on 26 June 2019 - 11:25 AM, said:

 

Not sure if you read LM's replies but he strongly suggested that no one ever needs to go to those flanks nor has to be near there to spot. In his scenario, who spots them early in order for the team to fall back? And where do those tanks fall back from? There just isn't a reserve of tanks and he doesn't recognize that the tanks have to disengage from an engagement and give up the advantage. This is purely him taking it for granted that in his wins someone has been there to spot or hold off the flank. If the flank is left open (as he thinks is the best tactic), the enemy tanks can advance fast and it doesn't leave enough time for the rest of the team to exploit the advantage of the numbers before some tanks have to inevitably disengage and fall back.

 

 

Sometimes those flank can be used, depending on the MM. 3 unicums in a top tier tanks can yolo beach and win the game. I (and probably LM) are talking about general strategy. 

 

Like I said, a TD on the 4 line can support windmill and spot the beach at the same time. At that point (if the teams are equal) the top should have won or at least got such an advantage that they can spare tanks to turn back and defend. You don't need to turn back and go to the beach to defend. You can stay at the middle area and defend from there. The enemies are still going to take at least 30s before getting up from the beach.

 

The reserve tanks come from the top. If they haven't won the top then that means that the enemy team is much better and the beach push didn't even matter as the enemy would have won even more easily if all fought on the top.

 

.

 

 

View PostOmniWalou, on 26 June 2019 - 11:25 AM, said:

 

 

In an ideal play, it would require 1 or 2 tanks to spot and hold the other flank while the other flank wins, like you said. This is why in CW one flank just isn't left open and forgotten about. In randoms it just isn't this way and the team doesn't divide so that rest of the tanks go to the city/top side and push it fast. The variety of players and skill levels means that they will layer out, take different positions for example along the road to the city on Lakeville, or camp in different spots along and next to the redline in Overlord. I do agree to the ideal map tactic for both maps, but that wasn't what LM argued for and it isn't possible in randoms.

 

Well randoms are randoms. Some players stay at the back of the map even though they are winning 14-0. I think this is more about the general tactic rather than actual implementation. What I get from LM's comments is that don't go to the beach because it's not going to help you win. That's exactly true.



crnakoza #75 Posted 26 June 2019 - 02:10 PM

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View PostOmniWalou, on 26 June 2019 - 12:15 PM, said:

You know you can do damage and still hold a flank.

 

But you don't need to hold a beach on overlord. Let enemies drive slowly on the beach while you massacre their teammates who decided to not go to the beach. Then when you're done with them you just pick off brainiacs as they climb up from the beach.

OmniWalou #76 Posted 26 June 2019 - 02:15 PM

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View PostJauhesammutin, on 26 June 2019 - 12:57 PM, said:

 

Sometimes those flank can be used, depending on the MM. 3 unicums in a top tier tanks can yolo beach and win the game. I (and probably LM) are talking about general strategy. 

 

Like I said, a TD on the 4 line can support windmill and spot the beach at the same time. At that point (if the teams are equal) the top should have won or at least got such an advantage that they can spare tanks to turn back and defend. You don't need to turn back and go to the beach to defend. You can stay at the middle area and defend from there. The enemies are still going to take at least 30s before getting up from the beach.

 

LM just didn't suggest that, he advised no one to go to the beach, which automatically includes him. I doubt he will agree with you on this as that would be him admitting that it works and the beach can be used. It would be in contradiction with what he has said.

 

The thing with the 4-line positions are that they need to be actively spotting as in looking down on the beach as well as support the top side/windmill. They would require to be close enough to the edge which means they will get spotted from the ''heavy corner'' or from the windmill after shooting or just by moving and even some being stationary. I do have experience of that spotting and I'm sure you have plenty as well. From the windmill the whole J4 square fits inside the max viewrange circle. The TD or whichever tank there is, would need to sit at the edges of J3/K3 in order to safely and actively spot the beach and not get spotted in return before that. That's not that common of a place for them to sit and wait as you can't support the mid as easily as from J4 (this is south example). And if the tank sits in J4, it won't spot the beach early, only when they reach the H3 corner. Towards north I would find it easier to push as north offers better structures as cover when reaching the top from A-line. But all in all, just one or two tanks sitting at the back won't do good on Overlord. Nowadays north teams tend to migrate towards the 9 line / NE corner anyways from my experience.

 

Block Quote

 The reserve tanks come from the top. If they haven't won the top then that means that the enemy team is much better and the beach push didn't even matter as the enemy would have won even more easily if all fought on the top.

 

And once again, the top side isn't easy to win fast and the outnumbered team doesn't have to be better or even equal because of that to be able to hold back long enough. Also, this would again require the early spots from the beach to get that information and in LM's suggestions there wouldn't be that spotter, which is the point why I have been saying someone has to always go there. When have you honestly seen beach or valley been left open by both teams? And if you have seen, wouldn't you agree that one tank pushing it to go get arty (Lakeville) or spot the campers (Overlord) would have been useful? Again, LM to this has claimed that it wouldn't have been useful.

 

Block Quote

 Well randoms are randoms. Some players stay at the back of the map even though they are winning 14-0. I think this is more about the general tactic rather than actual implementation. What I get from LM's comments is that don't go to the beach because it's not going to help you win. That's exactly true.

 

No, he has suggested that no one in any circumstances should go there, not to even spot or hold which you understand to be something that needs to be done. (for some reason I can't make the quote work by copying it but it's on the 1st page in the answer to you). This is from 2nd page:

 

View PostLordMuffin, on 24 June 2019 - 05:47 PM, said:

No, someone don't have to go there, end of discussion.

0 tanks are needed on beach, 0 tanks are needed in vally. Giving up those locations doesn't give the enemy a single good area to play from.

 

He does say that it gives no advantages but then again, he hasn't supported that with anything, just started talking about stats. :D

 

But as you have agreed, in an ideal tactic someone has to go to defend those flanks. I don't think I at any point argued that a team has to push the valley or the beach. Just due to the fact that there is someone always going there, so someone needs to stop them from coming through rather than just let them come and react to it. Randoms are randoms and I don't trust the average player to have situational awareness to notice someone is coming from beach or valley. It's much easier for the average Steve to push the valley and shoot at what appears in front of him than the Dave to look at the minimap and turn around and react correctly to the enemies appearing.



OmniWalou #77 Posted 26 June 2019 - 02:32 PM

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View Postcrnakoza, on 26 June 2019 - 02:10 PM, said:

But you don't need to hold a beach on overlord. Let enemies drive slowly on the beach while you massacre their teammates who decided to not go to the beach. Then when you're done with them you just pick off brainiacs as they climb up from the beach.

 

I don't know what game you are playing but please do tell me how often Overlord top side wins in a fast fashion? It takes several minutes to clear the top side or even make proper progress to avoid getting eventually in a crossfire. The people that go to the beach and manage to kill the enemies or just stagnate the situation do deserve their credit for a win. There is no denying of that.



lnfernaI #78 Posted 26 June 2019 - 03:08 PM

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View PostOmniWalou, on 26 June 2019 - 03:32 PM, said:

 The people that go to the beach and manage to kill the enemies or just stagnate the situation do deserve their credit for a win. There is no denying of that.

No they do not.



OmniWalou #79 Posted 26 June 2019 - 03:36 PM

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View PostlnfernaI, on 26 June 2019 - 03:08 PM, said:

No they do not.

 

Thank you for your well argued and such a valid contribution to the discussion. It really opened my eyes on the whole matter

/s just to be sure.



crnakoza #80 Posted 26 June 2019 - 06:42 PM

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View PostOmniWalou, on 26 June 2019 - 02:32 PM, said:

 

I don't know what game you are playing but please do tell me how often Overlord top side wins in a fast fashion?

 

Very often. The game is decided on the top side. 2/3 of the map are on the top side, you control the map on the top side. People going to the beach are just isolating themselves from the rest of the map because they can't handle it, they want a corridor. Don't try to pretend it's about anything else than that.





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