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Lakeville Encounter [edited] Valley mentality.

Lakeville Gameplay Valley Encounter Town

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Bordhaw #41 Posted 24 June 2019 - 07:34 PM

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View PostlnfernaI, on 24 June 2019 - 12:41 PM, said:

I would appreciate if someone explained to me the mentality of every [edited] [edited] who goes to the [edited] valley on Encounter, especially in already slow tanks, and then tries to push this worthless spot for ~5-7 minutes,and ends up losing the game in a draw. I can't grasp this nonsense,and forcibly I have to be salty about it.

 

Too many in the Valley and it ends up like this :

 



r00barb #42 Posted 24 June 2019 - 07:38 PM

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View Postcrnakoza, on 24 June 2019 - 06:32 PM, said:

Circling is not going to save you. You get spotted you die. If you can drive in circles fast, you are either driving a light tank or a wheelie, people will get closer to remove you from cap. You drive something that you don't want to go near and people just snipe you off from distance.

 

Well, bless you for taking me seriously, you sweet, innocent little thing. :girl:



crnakoza #43 Posted 24 June 2019 - 09:02 PM

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View Postr00barb, on 24 June 2019 - 07:38 PM, said:

 

Well, bless you for taking me seriously, you sweet, innocent little thing. :girl:

 

I take everyone's opinion into consideration. I might have missed your sarcasm, It's been a long day and my brain barely functions.

 

mea culpa



Jauhesammutin #44 Posted 24 June 2019 - 09:38 PM

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View Postvasilinhorulezz, on 24 June 2019 - 04:20 PM, said:

 

No?

 

That's what happened to the enemy team so why couldn't it happen to my team?

20:42 Added after 3 minutes

View Postcrnakoza, on 24 June 2019 - 05:58 PM, said:

 

And I once got a 8k spotted dmg game with my panther 8.8 on prokhorovka. Doesn't mean I will try to play a scout every time I run a bottom tier medium tank.

 

I think people are far too much stuck on outliers, this is selective memory at work. Someone once had a great game there, and so he keeps repeating the same steps completely ignoring the fact that it fails in 99% of cases. I don't think people ask themselves why they kicked @ss, or why did they lose, it just matters to them that they did. Situations in the match are never quite the same. In one match you can lock down entire corridor all by yourself because everyone is unwilling to get out and receive a shot from your E100, while in the next match suddenly you play against people who realize that you can only fire so many shots in a given timespan so they gang up on you and send you to garage.

 

That's the same reason why you have redline sniping heavies, why people complain armour doesn't work, why some think camouflage is broken, and everyone sees cheats everywhere... Nobody seems to analyze why some particular situation got them destroyed, they just remember they had a really bad experience doing something so they avoid it altogether.

Isn't that exactly what I wrote?

"Players succeed once and then try the same thing thousand times failing miserably."

If they have one good game in the valley they will try to duplicate it. Even though they've had more bad games than good ones.


Edited by Jauhesammutin, 24 June 2019 - 09:42 PM.


OmniWalou #45 Posted 25 June 2019 - 05:29 AM

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View PostLordMuffin, on 24 June 2019 - 06:43 PM, said:

 

My stats hugely effected by low tiered games...

Type \ Tier 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Total
HTs       2,161 2,355 2,376 2,507 3,066 3,170 2,826 2,675
MTs 881 955 1,609 1,763 3,074 2,917 2,907 3,145 3,356 2,738 2,977
LTs 1,678 1,559 1,287 1,185 3,013 2,748 2,812 3,497 2,820   2,619
TDs   1,334 1,487 2,155 2,554 2,958 2,704 3,058     2,818
SPGs   683 249 1,369 839 801 1,421       1,035
Total 1,667 1,466 1,262 1,552 2,712 2,675 2,673 3,177 3,241 2,806 2,758

You didn't even bother looking at my statistics before claiming my stats was due to low tier padding... maybe next time you make such a claim, try to make sure you are correct. 

 

It looks kind of bad on you to imply my stats are due to low tier padding and then when faced with the statistics, it turns out you are completely wrong.

The fact is that my highest wn8 tiers are T9, followed by T8 and then T10.

 

The reason why Overlord beach and valley on Lakeville encounter is irrelevant is because they don't offer any useful positions when won.

 

 

Winrate is helpful to see from which skill bracket a players tactical and strategical perception is comming from.

 

Also, same statistics for your account.

Type \ Tier 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Total
HTs         1,081 854         1,084
MTs     2,583 1,203 588 1,981 4,485       1,434
LTs 1,103 893 1,420 981             1,061
TDs         1,334           1,334
SPGs           956         956
Total 1,103 893 2,076 1,057 990 1,523 4,485       1,183

 

Your best performance is on T3 followed by T6. 

Your 2 battles at T7 is to small of a sample to be relevant.

 

Oh deary me, this got even more pathetic over night. But then again it's quite amusing to see you get so triggered when your stats are talked about. :teethhappy: Since you just can't stop talking about stats and try to boast with them, I'll bite your bait. Like I said, you're just another 6,35 average tier player, and it ain't going upwards now either and yeah you ain't a 2,7k player either anymore. You also have a couple hundred battles in tier 10, out of 50k+... You know, you aren't much different to those 30k+ battles with average tier of 3-4 that call themselves super unicums cause they have played their battles in an easier environment. You think way too highly of yourself, maybe it's time to step down from the horse and think things through a bit. The funny thing is that this topic isn't even about stats, no matter how much you try to shove it into others' face... You just immediately attacked me and told me I'm wrong purely because because of my WR. No arguments, nothing. Too bad that this seems to be an accepted behavior here on the forums. I guess I need to go grind a couple sessions of super unicum stats to get even a half decent argument out of you. Now it's just ''look at my 60% winrate, all I have to do is to say those flanks are useless and that makes me right''.

 

On topic though. Especially on Overlord the beach victory will lead to clear increase in map control. Where do the 4 ways off the beach lead to? 2 (1 in both sides) lead to the rear of the ''heavy flank'' and 2 lead to rear of the TDs that with 99,99% certainty are sitting there, at least some of them. If the beach is left alone, some tanks have to eventually go back to deal with them or they suffer in result ever decreasing map control and cross fire. There is enough elevation differences and structures to let anyone get off the beach without too much hassle and even unspotted. That results into aforementioned crossfire. And yeah, someone has to go deal with it. You can go test out how long it takes to for example push the empty beach. Overlord top side is not known to be a fast win. It takes time to assess the situation, find a spot to push through and to dig out the enemies. Even with an advantage in numbers, it just isn't doable quickly.

 

Lakeville is a bit different and on it, you don't gain too much from the valley victory. The critical thing is that how well the city and base side can hold until the valley is won. Again, it's hardly ever, if ever, a fast victory in city and teams tend to layer themselves often, meaning that winning city doesn't mean it's just automatic push to victory. I explained to Dorander how one can push from city to the base, in standard mode mainly. In encounter, valley becomes bit less important as cap pressure is put on easily. But try to remember (might be hard with that confirmation bias of yours) how often teams abandon the cap win and rather go for the kill victory. It's quite often the case frankly. And once again, if the valley is left completely open, it's perfectly possible that one team pushes through it and gains more of the map control and an encounter will result into a attack-defense of the cap circle.

 

Main thing is that there is almost always someone going to the valley and the beach. That means that someone from your team has to go there too if there isn't anyone already going, or if there is a useless tank going there. The least thing it does is it relays information of enemy tanks. You know, that important thing that is required for better players to make decisions based on. My hunch honestly is that you are the type of person that takes it for granted that someone goes to the beach or valley and you tend to berate people for doing it. If those flanks get won by the enemies and you lose your match, you will put it as a fault of the team and not take responsibility of it.

 

Spoiler

 



LordMuffin #46 Posted 25 June 2019 - 07:10 AM

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View PostOmniWalou, on 25 June 2019 - 05:29 AM, said:

 

Oh deary me, this got even more pathetic over night. But then again it's quite amusing to see you get so triggered when your stats are talked about. :teethhappy: Since you just can't stop talking about stats and try to boast with them, I'll bite your bait. Like I said, you're just another 6,35 average tier player, and it ain't going upwards now either and yeah you ain't a 2,7k player either anymore. You also have a couple hundred battles in tier 10, out of 50k+... You know, you aren't much different to those 30k+ battles with average tier of 3-4 that call themselves super unicums cause they have played their battles in an easier environment. You think way too highly of yourself, maybe it's time to step down from the horse and think things through a bit. The funny thing is that this topic isn't even about stats, no matter how much you try to shove it into others' face... You just immediately attacked me and told me I'm wrong purely because because of my WR. No arguments, nothing. Too bad that this seems to be an accepted behavior here on the forums. I guess I need to go grind a couple sessions of super unicum stats to get even a half decent argument out of you. Now it's just ''look at my 60% winrate, all I have to do is to say those flanks are useless and that makes me right''.

 

On topic though. Especially on Overlord the beach victory will lead to clear increase in map control. Where do the 4 ways off the beach lead to? 2 (1 in both sides) lead to the rear of the ''heavy flank'' and 2 lead to rear of the TDs that with 99,99% certainty are sitting there, at least some of them. If the beach is left alone, some tanks have to eventually go back to deal with them or they suffer in result ever decreasing map control and cross fire. There is enough elevation differences and structures to let anyone get off the beach without too much hassle and even unspotted. That results into aforementioned crossfire. And yeah, someone has to go deal with it. You can go test out how long it takes to for example push the empty beach. Overlord top side is not known to be a fast win. It takes time to assess the situation, find a spot to push through and to dig out the enemies. Even with an advantage in numbers, it just isn't doable quickly.

 

Lakeville is a bit different and on it, you don't gain too much from the valley victory. The critical thing is that how well the city and base side can hold until the valley is won. Again, it's hardly ever, if ever, a fast victory in city and teams tend to layer themselves often, meaning that winning city doesn't mean it's just automatic push to victory. I explained to Dorander how one can push from city to the base, in standard mode mainly. In encounter, valley becomes bit less important as cap pressure is put on easily. But try to remember (might be hard with that confirmation bias of yours) how often teams abandon the cap win and rather go for the kill victory. It's quite often the case frankly. And once again, if the valley is left completely open, it's perfectly possible that one team pushes through it and gains more of the map control and an encounter will result into a attack-defense of the cap circle.

 

Main thing is that there is almost always someone going to the valley and the beach. That means that someone from your team has to go there too if there isn't anyone already going, or if there is a useless tank going there. The least thing it does is it relays information of enemy tanks. You know, that important thing that is required for better players to make decisions based on. My hunch honestly is that you are the type of person that takes it for granted that someone goes to the beach or valley and you tend to berate people for doing it. If those flanks get won by the enemies and you lose your match, you will put it as a fault of the team and not take responsibility of it.

 

Spoiler

 

Baseless accusation is kind of boring.

But then, this whole post is baseless so whatever.


Edited by LordMuffin, 25 June 2019 - 07:11 AM.


OmniWalou #47 Posted 25 June 2019 - 07:19 AM

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View PostLordMuffin, on 25 June 2019 - 07:10 AM, said:

Baseless accusation is kind of boring.

But then, this whole post is baseless so whatever.

 

Well that's sorted then, you aren't able to make an argument for your case. All you had was your stats you love to shove at people's faces, and call yourself correct. Good that we both understand that now.

Maybe consider bringing something else to the table next time than stats, and put those stat sites on a block list to fight the urge to go there to check people's stats.


Edited by OmniWalou, 25 June 2019 - 07:21 AM.


pallie_the_artillerist #48 Posted 25 June 2019 - 07:33 AM

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Beach and valley do offer an advantage when the flank is won, most often the tanks needed to win said flanks would be more useful elsewhere.

chainreact0r #49 Posted 25 June 2019 - 07:51 AM

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Well, since my 60% wr is better than his, let me pitch in :)

View PostOmniWalou, on 25 June 2019 - 05:29 AM, said:

On topic though. Especially on Overlord the beach victory will lead to clear increase in map control. Where do the 4 ways off the beach lead to? 2 (1 in both sides) lead to the rear of the ''heavy flank'' and 2 lead to rear of the TDs that with 99,99% certainty are sitting there, at least some of them. If the beach is left alone, some tanks have to eventually go back to deal with them or they suffer in result ever decreasing map control and cross fire. There is enough elevation differences and structures to let anyone get off the beach without too much hassle and even unspotted. That results into aforementioned crossfire. And yeah, someone has to go deal with it. You can go test out how long it takes to for example push the empty beach. Overlord top side is not known to be a fast win. It takes time to assess the situation, find a spot to push through and to dig out the enemies. Even with an advantage in numbers, it just isn't doable quickly.

First of all, the ways that let you flank heavies/tds are extremely exposed. Pushing along those lines is virtually suicide, because you are not creating any crossfire, you are literally walking into one. The TD's can snipe you from the back if you push too far, and 2-3 heavy/mediums will not only hold the push back, but totally dominate it. And since pushing top takes time as you mentioned, you can afford to send a couple of tanks to deal with the beach pushers, because the remaining guys should be able to hold the line long enough for the aforementioned guys to finish the job. Plus, after clearing the beach push you gain so much map control and numbers advantage that it's really hard to lose.

While i haven't seen any beach push team win the game(or maybe i did and didn't recognize it as such, or can't remember), i'm sure it happens from time to time. This game is governed by RNGsus. Everything can happen. The question is how often does it happen, and for the overlord beach push, the answer is very rarely.

 

Lakeville is a bit different and on it, you don't gain too much from the valley victory. The critical thing is that how well the city and base side can hold until the valley is won. Again, it's hardly ever, if ever, a fast victory in city and teams tend to layer themselves often, meaning that winning city doesn't mean it's just automatic push to victory. I explained to Dorander how one can push from city to the base, in standard mode mainly. In encounter, valley becomes bit less important as cap pressure is put on easily. But try to remember (might be hard with that confirmation bias of yours) how often teams abandon the cap win and rather go for the kill victory. It's quite often the case frankly. And once again, if the valley is left completely open, it's perfectly possible that one team pushes through it and gains more of the map control and an encounter will result into a attack-defense of the cap circle.

On lakeville, you can literally leave the valley open, except for one spotter that will retreat into the a2 pocket when the enemies come. When that happens, the people from mid can engage at the corner, the campers from a9 have targets, and the guy/guys at a2 create a crossfire. It's an absolute deathtrap and the only thing it needs to work is 1/2 good players to take the pocket, i.e. yourself and your platoon mate.

Again, this engagement will be instantly lost by the enemy team, and you gain all the numbers and map control advantages in the world. Easy peasy stuff from there onwards.

This works on standard and encounter, just on encounter it's not that useful to defend the base corner since the enemies have to push through the open to get to the city, which is more or less suicide.

 

 

Main thing is that there is almost always someone going to the valley and the beach. That means that someone from your team has to go there too if there isn't anyone already going, or if there is a useless tank going there. The least thing it does is it relays information of enemy tanks. You know, that important thing that is required for better players to make decisions based on. My hunch honestly is that you are the type of person that takes it for granted that someone goes to the beach or valley and you tend to berate people for doing it. If those flanks get won by the enemies and you lose your match, you will put it as a fault of the team and not take responsibility of it.

People who go the the beach/valley on any map, are just lazy players who just want to duke it out in their heavies(i do that too sometimes), people who don't know any better, or people who know better but they are not very good at the game and they know going there means giving their best contribution to the game.

When there is no arty, and i am in an armored tank/hulldown monster, and i notice the enemy team doesn't have many tanks that can hold me back, i know i can go the the valley and farm easy damage.

On overlord i can truly state that i have never in my life gone down to the beach other than to clean up in the endgame, or the occasional flanking manuever in a light tank when the beach is empty.

 

 



lnfernaI #50 Posted 25 June 2019 - 08:01 AM

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I never thought I'd see someone write: "Beach gives map control".

The spot is truly useless,a trap as already mentioned. Picking it makes bad players make even worser decisions (provided of course, they can think and read the map in the first place).



HaZardeur #51 Posted 25 June 2019 - 08:04 AM

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View Postpallie_the_artillerist, on 25 June 2019 - 07:33 AM, said:

Beach and valley do offer an advantage when the flank is won, most often the tanks needed to win said flanks would be more useful elsewhere.

 



Captain_Kremen0 #52 Posted 25 June 2019 - 08:45 AM

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Am I the only one who has ever lost to a beach or valley push more than once? One thing I did notice in those games was that a group of GOOD players can win ANY flank they choose to.

kk40270 #53 Posted 25 June 2019 - 08:45 AM

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I cant remember more than 5 games when our team won because they push through beach or valley. But i can remeber more than 100 games when we lose because people go those places.

 

With those numbers i wount go beach or valley NEVER.

 

One advantage in those places is... U dont get flanked there. That might be a major reason why bad players go there...

 

K



Miepie #54 Posted 25 June 2019 - 10:06 AM

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View Postr00barb, on 24 June 2019 - 07:23 PM, said:

 

That's why expert players like me drive around in circles while capping. :great:

 

Your advice intrigues me and henceforth I shall drive in circles even when I'm NOT capping. :teethhappy::great:

 

My teammates will be so impressed! :medal:



crnakoza #55 Posted 25 June 2019 - 12:15 PM

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View PostJauhesammutin, on 24 June 2019 - 09:38 PM, said:

Isn't that exactly what I wrote?

 

It is, why do you assume I'm correcting you? I just joined in on your rant ;)

mpf1959 #56 Posted 25 June 2019 - 12:23 PM

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Lakeville Encounter, Into The Valley mentality.

 

 



HaZardeur #57 Posted 25 June 2019 - 01:00 PM

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View Postmpf1959, on 25 June 2019 - 12:23 PM, said:

Lakeville Encounter, Into The Valley mentality.

 

 

 

 

Is that Sex Pistols for bankers ?



LordMuffin #58 Posted 25 June 2019 - 03:42 PM

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View PostOmniWalou, on 25 June 2019 - 07:19 AM, said:

 

Well that's sorted then, you aren't able to make an argument for your case. All you had was your stats you love to shove at people's faces, and call yourself correct. Good that we both understand that now.

Maybe consider bringing something else to the table next time than stats, and put those stat sites on a block list to fight the urge to go there to check people's stats.

I didn't read past first half of your first paragraph, because at that point it was clear you had no clue about how statistics work at all.

 

Anyway.

The reason why beach on Overlord is irrelevant is because it doesn't give the players who win it a decent position to fight from. In fact, by winning beach, you put your tank in a very disadvantageous position afterward.

You have to go up (takes a long time).

You go up in a corridor from where enemy can easily get shots down upon you and down at your back. So getting out of the beach is just a fight from a very disadvantageous position.

 

So why would I go to an area which if I win, puts myself in a disadvantageous position and in a position which doesn't offer any kind of map control.

 

As for valley on Lakeville encounter.

The valley have soft terrain, meaning it takes a very long time to drive through it. Time that can be better spent elsewhere, most battles are decided in the first 4 minutes. So if you don't do anything in that time, you could just aswell had been AFK.

Then the valley is very far from the objective, which is in city, so why fight for an area that offers no control over the objective (cap circle) or the map.

 

Also, it is rather easy to defend a push around at either sides spawn aswell. You need 1 tank in mid and 1 tank supporting along top or buttom red line and that's it.

 

 

Stats are relevant because they put players in skill bracket, which in turn influence how players play and see the game.

 

Lesser players often give tips like: 'learn weakspots', 'learn sniping positions etc on maps', 'learn how to lead a tank' etc. All of them have some relevance, but they all miss the main reason why some players are better at this game then other players.



onderschepper #59 Posted 25 June 2019 - 03:59 PM

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View PostLordMuffin, on 25 June 2019 - 03:42 PM, said:

The reason why beach on Overlord is irrelevant is because it doesn't give the players who win it a decent position to fight from. In fact, by winning beach, you put your tank in a very disadvantageous position afterward.

You have to go up (takes a long time).

You go up in a corridor from where enemy can easily get shots down upon you and down at your back. So getting out of the beach is just a fight from a very disadvantageous position.

 

So why would I go to an area which if I win, puts myself in a disadvantageous position and in a position which doesn't offer any kind of map control.

 

I had this scenario yesterday where the majority of the team decided to have a beach party, and their efforts were effective though I sincerely doubt the outcome was their intention.

 

They drew the attention of most of the enemy plus the two Artillery enabling two LTs and my TD to blitz across the fields almost unopposed, catch the Artillery unawares and then sandwich the remaining forces. :izmena:

 

All it would have taken is 25% of the enemy to have been defending the fields and our maneuver would have been less successful, probably leading to our team being out flanked. :facepalm:



OmniWalou #60 Posted 25 June 2019 - 04:26 PM

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View PostLordMuffin, on 25 June 2019 - 03:42 PM, said:

The reason why beach on Overlord is irrelevant is because it doesn't give the players who win it a decent position to fight from. In fact, by winning beach, you put your tank in a very disadvantageous position afterward.

You have to go up (takes a long time).

You go up in a corridor from where enemy can easily get shots down upon you and down at your back. So getting out of the beach is just a fight from a very disadvantageous position.

 

So why would I go to an area which if I win, puts myself in a disadvantageous position and in a position which doesn't offer any kind of map control.

 

First off, remember that this isn't about 10 tanks going to beach (or valley), it's about the few tanks that always go there. So it's a case of you still having to fight the rest of the team over the map control, and just having a chance to have advantage in numbers depending on what the rest of your team does.

 

You would go there in order to not let the enemies come from there, as I have said already. There is always someone going there and once they get to those ''disadvantageous'' spots you like to call them, your team has to react to that and lose tanks from other parts of the map. What were those tanks doing before having to relocate to fight the beach enemies? Were they reserves or actually fighting over the map control of the upper side? Overlord top side is not a fast win and if the beach is empty, it doesn't take long to get through it and most likely undetected, meaning once you get the idea of where enemies are, they have already climbed further up. If they are spotted, you once again have to react to it and send tanks from other fights to deal with it. Average WoT players situational awareness is so poor that they won't do that.

 

And the positions aren't even disadvantageous, especially the ones behind the bases as they have elevation differences and structures to give cover. The main point that gives the advantage though is that the team that didn't go to beach has to send tanks back to not let them get even better positions by pushing forwards from the channels. This is where I get the hunch that you take it all for granted and fight for the top side instead and expect the beach pushers to never reach positions where they can create crossfire.

 

Block Quote

 As for valley on Lakeville encounter.

The valley have soft terrain, meaning it takes a very long time to drive through it. Time that can be better spent elsewhere, most battles are decided in the first 4 minutes. So if you don't do anything in that time, you could just aswell had been AFK.

Then the valley is very far from the objective, which is in city, so why fight for an area that offers no control over the objective (cap circle) or the map.

 

But it doesn't actually take that long to get through it. Ever tested it? It takes long when there is some tanks defending it but as you said earlier; no one should ever go there. In that scenario it doesn't take long to push through it. And once again, you require tanks to fall back in order to deal with it, tanks that were already fighting. Or are they the reserves again which you seem to have in every game on those maps? :P The city can be won faster than Overlord top side but it still creates a problem when the general mentality is 'no cap kill all'. Team has to then decide whether to wait out the enemy, or push into them. And if you push, they have also defensive positions. Keep in mind still that this isn't about 10 tanks going to valley (or beach), it's usually the 2-4 tanks that go there. And the layering of tanks along the maps is a common team random teams do. 2 TDs in the corner of the middle road, some tanks in near the redline on the way to town and tanks in different places in town. 2-4 tanks in the valley from one team, doesn't automatically mean advantage in numbers in the town for the other.

 

Block Quote

Stats are relevant because they put players in skill bracket, which in turn influence how players play and see the game.

Lesser players often give tips like: 'learn weakspots', 'learn sniping positions etc on maps', 'learn how to lead a tank' etc. All of them have some relevance, but they all miss the main reason why some players are better at this game then other players.

 

The problem with you is though, that you read someone's comment and immediately go to the stats sites to check the player and after that right away try to assert domination by saying ''well i have 60% winrate and it's better than yours, so you are wrong''. It took this long, what 3 or 4 comments from you to get a half decent reply that wasn't all about stats. Please learn to actually make an argument and not just use stats to pretend that you are something special. If I go get myself a 60% winrate as well, with an average tier of 3-4, am I then qualified to talk about stats as much as someone with a 60% winrate with average tier of 10, and not get berated right after making the first comment to the thread?


Edited by OmniWalou, 25 June 2019 - 04:27 PM.






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