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Something about premium ammo nobody's thought about...NERFING PEN

Another thread about the 2key

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Poll: You know the drill (27 members have cast votes)

You have to complete 250 battles in order to participate this poll.

Nerf premium pen, damage, or buff standard damage?

  1. Nerf premium ammo pen (1 vote [3.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.70%

  2. Nerf premium ammo damage (8 votes [29.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.63%

  3. Buff standard ammo damage (i.e. proceed with current sandbox changes) (5 votes [18.52%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.52%

  4. I don't care. (13 votes [48.15%])

    Percentage of vote: 48.15%

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NekoPuffer_PPP #1 Posted 08 July 2019 - 10:59 PM

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It's pretty standard for all tier 10 heavy and medium tanks to boast 330-340mm of premium penetration...nearly 100mm more than their standard shells.

 

I've always been for nerfing prem damage, but maybe there's an even simpler solution?

 

Maybe the problem isn't with the amount of premium ammo being fired, but with the amount of it actually penetrating.

 

I would love another sandbox test, a different one from this utterly ridiculous global HP/damage rebalance currently taking place. A test where premium ammo with lower penetration is tested...yet with the same price. This on it's own could reduce the amount of it being fired, too.

 

Thoughts?...



KanonenVogel19 #2 Posted 08 July 2019 - 11:20 PM

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What are your intentions with keeping the price the same?

VonniVidiVici #3 Posted 08 July 2019 - 11:22 PM

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If fewer premium ammo shells penetrate, more will be fired. The hell else are people gonna do? Flank!? :D

Tigerfish_Torpedo #4 Posted 08 July 2019 - 11:25 PM

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Reduce the pen slightly?

 

Hey Neko, if you drive a Type 4 or 5 Heavy, or a Maus, your opinion may be a little biased. :P



onderschepper #5 Posted 08 July 2019 - 11:26 PM

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My opinion isn't represented in the poll, thus:

 



Bulldog_Drummond #6 Posted 08 July 2019 - 11:53 PM

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Hell goes round and round. In shape it is circular, and by nature it is interminable, repetitive, and nearly unbearable.

ValkyrionX #7 Posted 08 July 2019 - 11:57 PM

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none of the options would make sense

as I tried to explain in my threads about it would make more sense a set of actions to decrease the use of special ammunition.

 

 

- increase the cost of such ammunition by 5%


-decrease the total number of special ammunition that can be mounted in the hold of a tank, taking into account the total ammunition for a maximum of 15-20% ,  obviously this must be done well as each tank has a hold ammunition with different capacities and it is necessary to not give an excessive advantage to the tanks with holds with great capacity


- increase penetration of all standard ammunition by 5-10%, excluding HE and HESH ammunition penetration


- significantly reduce damage and splash from explosive ammunition by 15-20% as even HE spam has become truly pathetic in this game


- place this limit only on randoms battles , frontline and team battles tier 8 and not on competitive modes like CW ,  tournaments and clan skirmishes/adv 6-8-X

 

-remove the special HE for the arty as they are absolutely useless

 

-reduce damage dealt to enemies with special ammunition over time but only to blows that penetrate the opponent , for example I fire a shot to a maus with my M60 with special ammo [heat] , the first shot has 100% of the alpha damage [390] and penetrates the opponent , the second shot penetrate the armor of the maus but the alpha damage is reduced to 90%and will be less than 100% [390-10%], the third hit does not penetrate no chenge is inflicted to the alpha damage that remains reduced to 90 %, the fourth blow penetrates and inflicts a damage reduced to 90% ...  also the fifth blow penetrates the enemy maus but the damage is reduced to 80% therefore decidedly less than 100% [390-20%=312 alpha dmg] ... ect etc up to a damage reduced to about 75% of the total starting.

 

 

These slight changes would all translate into this brief summary:

 

The special ammunition would cost slightly more, the buff at the penetration of standard ammunition would favor their use making the gaming experience more pleasant and moreover the reduction of the damage from He would go to bring these ammunition back in their original role, eliminate tanks with few HP
In addition, the special ammunition, in addition to their slight increase in cost, would do less damage over time but only after the penetration has taken place on the enemy tank and would be limited as they could not fit more than a certain number % in the hold of your tank and these two factors would bring the players to use special ammo only in cases of real need and only against really well armored vehicles.

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by ValkyrionX, 09 July 2019 - 12:07 AM.


The_Naa #8 Posted 09 July 2019 - 12:07 AM

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i think the core concept of PA is the high penetration value, with some exceptions that buff DMG.

i do like the high penetration value as it gives me a chance to penetrate hard targets and in SH/Advances it is the way to go.

i am curious how any changes in PA will affect the Meta in Competitive games, so im kinda excited to see the changes and aftermath :) 

if its a DMG decrease in anyway Autoloaders might or might not fall out of favour.



I_Gutmensch_Deluxe_I #9 Posted 09 July 2019 - 12:18 AM

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Dont touch Premium and standard shells pleaze.

ValkyrionX #10 Posted 09 July 2019 - 12:20 AM

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View PostI_Gutmensch_Deluxe_I, on 09 July 2019 - 12:18 AM, said:

Dont touch Premium and standard shells pleaze.

 

I agree 100%, but if the wg were to make changes I think my idea in general is better than the nonsense crap we saw in the test server

Dorander #11 Posted 09 July 2019 - 12:27 AM

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What sets premium ammo apart is its higher penetration value, there'd be little point in it at all if it didn't have it.

 

The problem with the prammo scenario is that prammo isn't just about ammunition, it's an integral part of the game mechanics. That includes armour profiles, hitpoints and even the matchmaker. It seems like a simple solution to nerf prammo, but then what's a tier-2 tank going to do if/when it eventually faces off against a tank two tiers higher?

 

The only method prammo is ever going to be balanced if it does something regular ammo does better, while regular ammo has something it does better than prammo. Pressing 2 should be a tactical choice, not a simple improvement, much like pressing 3 is now. It should allow people to not be helpless against heavily armoured opponents, while at the same time not being better or even equal for every other opponent.



Balc0ra #12 Posted 09 July 2019 - 12:42 AM

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Will it make a difference in most cases? They still did press 2, and they still did damage to you. People will moan about this regardless. And if they don't pen anymore? Well they will still spam it until they do.

 

And nerfing prem damage? It's more or less what WG wanted. But most here thought it would just shift the power the wrong way then fix anything. As then the IS-6 gets 1400 dpm. That's fun vs a Defender he still can't reliably pen. Or the T32 vs the VK 100.01 with 1200 dpm like WG tested. 


Edited by Balc0ra, 09 July 2019 - 12:44 AM.


vasilinhorulezz #13 Posted 09 July 2019 - 01:50 AM

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Unless we get proper weakspots to shoot at, I'll spam premium at every Type, Maus, V4, 430U, 252U, 279(e), S Conq. I meet. Weakspot meta needs to come back, maps should allow flanking opportunities, tanks should be able to pen enemies, especially those that don't even know how to angle/hide their armor/weak points.

NUKLEAR_SLUG #14 Posted 09 July 2019 - 02:27 AM

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View Postvasilinhorulezz, on 09 July 2019 - 01:50 AM, said:

Unless we get proper weakspots to shoot at, I'll spam premium at every Type, Maus, V4, 430U, 252U, 279(e), S Conq. I meet. Weakspot meta needs to come back, maps should allow flanking opportunities, tanks should be able to pen enemies, especially those that don't even know how to angle/hide their armor/weak points.

 

Define 'weakspots'.

 

If superheavies had weakspots you can reliably pen with standard what then is the point of the Maus/Type? 



7thSyndicate #15 Posted 09 July 2019 - 02:51 AM

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What about not making changes to ammo? it´s fine as it is.


Edited by 7thSyndicate, 09 July 2019 - 02:51 AM.


NekoPuffer_PPP #16 Posted 09 July 2019 - 05:31 AM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 09 July 2019 - 03:27 AM, said:

Define 'weakspots'.

 

If superheavies had weakspots you can reliably pen with standard what then is the point of the Maus/Type? 

 

Faced an IS-4 last night in my Type 5.

 

He penned my front with AP. So imagine what HEAT does to it...goes through like butter. What's the point in all that armor if it's treated as cardboard soon as they press 2? It makes no sense. I was angled too, btw.



Yaccay #17 Posted 09 July 2019 - 06:14 AM

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I do not think the current premium ammo's pen or alpha damage is a problem.

The problem is the unlimited usage of premium ammo.

We need something, to discourage excessive premium ammo usage.

My suggestion: make the premium ammo progressivly more costly.

example:

1-2 premium ammo cost: 1000 cr.

3-4 premium ammo cost: 3000 cr

5-6 premium ammo cost: 6000 cr

6+ premium ammo cost: 8500 cr

 



slitth #18 Posted 09 July 2019 - 06:46 AM

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I would prefer if they work on the Damage Per Minute of premium shells but increasing reload of premium shells instead of a simple Damage Per Shot reduction.

It would make premium shells a bad choice in a DPM dual against a lightly armoured tank.



4nt #19 Posted 09 July 2019 - 07:42 AM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 09 July 2019 - 02:27 AM, said:

 

Define 'weakspots'.

 

If superheavies had weakspots you can reliably pen with standard what then is the point of the Maus/Type? 

Maurerbrecher has good-ish example of weakspots. Cupola is weak, -1 tanks can pretty reliably pen it. LFP is pennable by equal tiers and most low tiers. Upper plate and turret front give trouble to most tanks barring +2s, although with proper angling can be resistant. These weakspots are hideable with good positioning.

 

Only problem with maurer is the mg port, IIRC it is on the opposite side to cupola and weaker than any of other weakspots, and huge in comparison to mg ports of olde.



Homer_J #20 Posted 09 July 2019 - 07:45 AM

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View PostNekoPuffer_PPP, on 08 July 2019 - 10:59 PM, said:

 

Thoughts?...

Where is the option for premium ammo is fine as it is?

 

View PostNekoPuffer_PPP, on 09 July 2019 - 05:31 AM, said:

 

Faced an IS-4 last night in my Type 5.

 

He penned my front with AP. So imagine what HEAT does to it...goes through like butter. What's the point in all that armor if it's treated as cardboard soon as they press 2? It makes no sense. I was angled too, btw.

DOH!

 

If you angle the Type 5 you make the armour weaker because you give them your cheek plates to shoot at.






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