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What's the idea with the Japanese heavies guns?


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Ryn1k #1 Posted 16 July 2019 - 07:43 PM

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Okay so, the Japanese heavy tanks guns seem ...stupid to me. This is anecdotal, but it would appear that if I'm in my Maus, or Object 705, or probably in whatever heavily armoured tank, the Japanese heavy tanks seemingly aim anywhere they like, and cause 400-700 damage. It's like they don't even have to try and hit a weak spot?

 

In a match just now, one just shot my 705 straight in the turret front and took out 600hp. I have high tier TD's bouncing off that thing. Is there supposed to be a weakness to their guns? Seems like a moronic design choice for me to just make something that ignores armour completely, but I might be missing something here. Sure, I have HE ammo as well, but they are actually capable of killing tanks efficiently with theirs.

 

If (didn't check) they have long reload, that really kinda doesn't cut it either. Other guns have high reload as well...


Edited by Ryn1k, 16 July 2019 - 07:46 PM.


eekeeboo #2 Posted 16 July 2019 - 07:46 PM

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As much as he guns high roll. They can low roll too. For the person to do that damage they must have hit you just right next to a squidgy bit. 

 

It's easy to remember the big meaty bits and forget all trickle hits. 



NekoPuffer_PPP #3 Posted 16 July 2019 - 07:51 PM

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You got penetrated. That surprises you?...

 

Type 4/5 derp guns don't deal any serious damage anymore. It could not have been the HE shell doing 600 damage to your turret, max you'd receive from a 150mm HE shell from the Type 4/5 would be between 100-200 damage Their AP guns however got a tiny bit of a penetration buff recently, but it's nothing special. Guess he rolled a jackpot.

 

On another note...how the heck do you have all those high tier tanks with so few battles???

 

Goes to show, you shouldn't rush to tier 10. A thousand battles sounds like a lot...it's not, it's peanuts. Stick to lower tiers until around 10.000 battles.

 

I blame premium account and premium tanks for the lightning progression to tier 10...I don't recommend doing that!



FluffyRedFox #4 Posted 16 July 2019 - 08:06 PM

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Are they using the AP or HE gun? I'm fairly sure its impossible for the HE gun to roll 600 on a non roll, but you're talking as if you're being shot at with HE. Replay would help here as it could be just some bs AP pen from a giga-high RNG pen roll. Their premium 290 pen AP round can roll as high as 360ish which would definitely go through parts of your turret front.

leggasiini #5 Posted 16 July 2019 - 08:10 PM

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Yea, they must've been using the AP guns, the 15cm derps can't physically roll higher than 500-550 with non-penetrating hits anymore (and even those numbers happen only if you max roll against a paper armored target that you failed to pen for some reason, most of the time you won't roll higher than 300-400), and they shouldn't be able to pen a Obj 705 either unless they hit your rear.

 

Their derp guns actually were able to do 400-600 damage without really aiming, but that's no longer the case.



Nishi_Kinuyo #6 Posted 16 July 2019 - 08:46 PM

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View PostRyn1k, on 16 July 2019 - 07:43 PM, said:

Okay so, the Japanese heavy tanks guns seem ...stupid to me. This is anecdotal, but it would appear that if I'm in my Maus, or Object 705, or probably in whatever heavily armoured tank, the Japanese heavy tanks seemingly aim anywhere they like, and cause 400-700 damage. It's like they don't even have to try and hit a weak spot?

 

In a match just now, one just shot my 705 straight in the turret front and took out 600hp. I have high tier TD's bouncing off that thing. Is there supposed to be a weakness to their guns? Seems like a moronic design choice for me to just make something that ignores armour completely, but I might be missing something here. Sure, I have HE ammo as well, but they are actually capable of killing tanks efficiently with theirs.

 

If (didn't check) they have long reload, that really kinda doesn't cut it either. Other guns have high reload as well...

You got outplayed.

Eel with it. :girl:



jack_timber #7 Posted 16 July 2019 - 11:55 PM

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View Posteekeeboo, on 16 July 2019 - 06:46 PM, said:

As much as he guns high roll. They can low roll too. For the person to do that damage they must have hit you just right next to a squidgy bit. 

 

It's easy to remember the big meaty bits and forget all trickle hits. 

 

A new technical term eek... Squidgy bit just wait till they put that into WoT Wiki... :)

Homer_J #8 Posted 17 July 2019 - 03:05 AM

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View PostRyn1k, on 16 July 2019 - 07:43 PM, said:

Okay so, the Japanese heavy tanks guns seem ...stupid to me. This is anecdotal, but it would appear that if I'm in my Maus, or Object 705, or probably in whatever heavily armoured tank, the Japanese heavy tanks seemingly aim anywhere they like, and cause 400-700 damage.

 

Really?  They never did that prior to being nerfed.  I find it hard to believe they are doing it now.

HassenderZerhacker #9 Posted 17 July 2019 - 07:04 AM

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the Type 5 HE gun does 900 average damage. max RNG makes that 1125.

 

let's say that shell hits Maus on the turret, just above the hull deck (armor 50mm).

Damage = 0.5 x 1125 x (1- distance to impact/splash radius) - 1.1 x armor rating x spall factor

= 563 - 55 = 508

 

the maximum damage that gun can do to Maus is 508 (non-penetrating shot)


Edited by HassenderZerhacker, 17 July 2019 - 07:06 AM.


Spurtung #10 Posted 17 July 2019 - 08:11 AM

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This is the first time I see a thread with such a stench of necro subject yet it was just created. It's like the OP time traveled to the past or something.

Ryn1k #11 Posted 17 July 2019 - 08:23 AM

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View PostNekoPuffer_PPP, on 16 July 2019 - 07:51 PM, said:

You got penetrated. That surprises you?...

 

Type 4/5 derp guns don't deal any serious damage anymore. It could not have been the HE shell doing 600 damage to your turret, max you'd receive from a 150mm HE shell from the Type 4/5 would be between 100-200 damage Their AP guns however got a tiny bit of a penetration buff recently, but it's nothing special. Guess he rolled a jackpot.

 

On another note...how the heck do you have all those high tier tanks with so few battles???

 

Goes to show, you shouldn't rush to tier 10. A thousand battles sounds like a lot...it's not, it's peanuts. Stick to lower tiers until around 10.000 battles.

 

I blame premium account and premium tanks for the lightning progression to tier 10...I don't recommend doing that!

 

Well the guy below you provided a seemingly accurate case that displays the damage can be way more than what you describe. If what you start with is the case, it does surprise me, yes, that someone can just aim directly at the turret of an Object 705 front and simply pen it. With a Heavy tank. This is not a doomsday TD we're talking about. But I guess that's how it is then? No thinking required, simply aim anywhere and pen. I thought having weak spots had some kind of purpose in this game. Regarding battles. This is my second account. I used to have one with around 3k battles before, but it was ages ago and I don't have access to the email or pretty much anything any more. Even this account is now years old.

 

View PostFluffyRedFox, on 16 July 2019 - 08:06 PM, said:

Are they using the AP or HE gun? I'm fairly sure its impossible for the HE gun to roll 600 on a non roll, but you're talking as if you're being shot at with HE. Replay would help here as it could be just some bs AP pen from a giga-high RNG pen roll. Their premium 290 pen AP round can roll as high as 360ish which would definitely go through parts of your turret front.

 

This is possible. I find it somehow surprising that even heavy tanks penetrate something like a 705 turret. I dunno, it somehow feels pointless to play a heavy tank if my armour is meaningless.

 

View PostNishi_Kinuyo, on 16 July 2019 - 08:46 PM, said:

You got outplayed.

Eel with it. :girl:

 

Nah, just penetrating the strongest part of a tank by pointing your gun at it isn't "outplaying" anyone. It's possible you disagree, so will I, so I guess it's pointless to discuss this further.

 

View PostHomer_J, on 17 July 2019 - 03:05 AM, said:

 

Really?  They never did that prior to being nerfed.  I find it hard to believe they are doing it now.

 

Dunno, there was a hole in the front of my 705 turret and the culprit was a T10 Japanese heavy tank. Not much of those around I'm afraid.

 

View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 17 July 2019 - 07:04 AM, said:

the Type 5 HE gun does 900 average damage. max RNG makes that 1125.

 

let's say that shell hits Maus on the turret, just above the hull deck (armor 50mm).

Damage = 0.5 x 1125 x (1- distance to impact/splash radius) - 1.1 x armor rating x spall factor

= 563 - 55 = 508

 

the maximum damage that gun can do to Maus is 508 (non-penetrating shot)

 

So it's possible then? What I get from this is, that they can shoot me somewhere, and deal relatively large damage without even penetrating the armour (in this example, the hit is directed at the turret but does blast damage.) My gun does similiar damage if I happen to penetrate, and this guy does it by aiming at a barn door.

 

View PostSpurtung, on 17 July 2019 - 08:11 AM, said:

This is the first time I see a thread with such a stench of necro subject yet it was just created. It's like the OP time traveled to the past or something.

 

Nice input.

Edited by Ryn1k, 17 July 2019 - 08:25 AM.


Spurtung #12 Posted 17 July 2019 - 10:22 AM

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View PostRyn1k, on 17 July 2019 - 07:23 AM, said:

View PostSpurtung, on 17 July 2019 - 08:11 AM, said:

This is the first time I see a thread with such a stench of necro subject yet it was just created. It's like the OP time traveled to the past or something.

 

Nice input.

Almost as good as your replay.



Ryn1k #13 Posted 17 July 2019 - 10:32 AM

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View PostSpurtung, on 17 July 2019 - 10:22 AM, said:

Almost as good as your replay.

 

Not required luckily, as it was already indicated in an example above with calculations provided that this can happen. Shame you missed it. Unless you'd like to prove that the guy who provided them "HassenderZerhacker" is wrong.

Alternatively, you're just looking for a fight for reasons that dwell within yourself in which case, you'd be better off doing something else entirely.

Spurtung #14 Posted 17 July 2019 - 10:49 AM

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View PostRyn1k, on 17 July 2019 - 09:32 AM, said:

 

Not required luckily, as it was already indicated in an example above with calculations provided that this can happen. Shame you missed it. Unless you'd like to prove that the guy who provided them "HassenderZerhacker" is wrong.

Why would I need to prove him wrong at all?

 

He talks about shooting the engine deck of a Maus while you complain about a shot through the 705 frontal turret. Apples and oranges.



HassenderZerhacker #15 Posted 17 July 2019 - 10:52 AM

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View PostSpurtung, on 17 July 2019 - 10:49 AM, said:

Why would I need to prove him wrong at all?

 

He talks about shooting the engine deck of a Maus while you complain about a shot through the 705 frontal turret. Apples and oranges.

 

nope. I talked about shooting the turret.

Spurtung #16 Posted 17 July 2019 - 11:13 AM

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View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 17 July 2019 - 09:52 AM, said:

 

nope. I talked about shooting the turret.

 

To splash the engine deck.

 

Is that "705 straight in the turret front"?



Nishi_Kinuyo #17 Posted 17 July 2019 - 11:46 AM

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View PostRyn1k, on 17 July 2019 - 08:23 AM, said:

Dunno, there was a hole in the front of my 705 turret and the culprit was a T10 Japanese heavy tank. Not much of those around I'm afraid.

And where on your turret? From what distance? From what angle?

Give us a replay or something if you're serious.

 

From short range with the Type 5 Heavy aiming slightly downwards, your turret is around 60% chance to penetrate with its standard AP shell.

The rear part of your turret roof is only 40mm thick so it'll autopen that part, while the front roof of your turret is 60mm and can be double overmatched if the angle is less than 70°.

In all of those cases a penetrating hit would do an average of 600 damage.

 

You. Got. Outplayed.



Ryn1k #18 Posted 17 July 2019 - 11:47 AM

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View PostSpurtung, on 17 July 2019 - 11:13 AM, said:

 

To splash the engine deck.

 

Is that "705 straight in the turret front"?

 

Should've screenshotted it indeed. In any case, I fought a Type 5 on my Object 705 in Siegried Line yesterday. He shot at me with my hull being hidden by a pile of rubble, and as I spun the camera around there was a penetration marker (a black hole surrounded by silver bare metal) right in the front of my turret.

This happened. I don't know why, but it felt dumb, as it gave me a feeling that my armour is useless against a tank that just ignores it and proceeds to bounce my shots.

 

View PostNishi_Kinuyo, on 17 July 2019 - 11:46 AM, said:

And where on your turret? From what distance? From what angle?

Give us a replay or something if you're serious.

 

From short range with the Type 5 Heavy aiming slightly downwards, your turret is around 60% chance to penetrate with its standard AP shell.

The rear part of your turret roof is only 40mm thick so it'll autopen that part, while the front roof of your turret is 60mm and can be double overmatched if the angle is less than 70°.

In all of those cases a penetrating hit would do an average of 600 damage.

 

You. Got. Outplayed.

 

Being in a taller tank. And shooting downwards. On a target that is downwards for you. Doesn't quality as outplaying someone. Try to search for the actual meanings of terms before you throw them around like that.

In any case, the Type 5 was pretty far but I won't say it's impossible it was the angle. But it wasn't like we were bumping into each other, more like from the opposite ends of two alleys on the opposing sides of the Siegfried Line maps central city.

Edited by Ryn1k, 17 July 2019 - 11:50 AM.


HassenderZerhacker #19 Posted 17 July 2019 - 11:51 AM

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View PostRyn1k, on 17 July 2019 - 11:47 AM, said:

 

Should've screenshotted it indeed. In any case, I fought a Type 5 on my Object 705 in Siegried Line yesterday. He shot at me with my hull being hidden by a pile of rubble, and as I spun the camera around there was a penetration marker (a black hole surrounded by silver bare metal) right in the front of my turret.
 

 

yeah, but that mod also shows holes for non-penetrating shots



Ryn1k #20 Posted 17 July 2019 - 11:56 AM

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View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 17 July 2019 - 11:51 AM, said:

 

yeah, but that mod also shows holes for non-penetrating shots

 

I thought these are a part of the engine: https://i.ytimg.com/...xresdefault.jpg

 

Since I don't have any mods aside from session statistics enabled (?)

 

And in any case. It was already demonstrated they can shoot a Maus in the turret and do 500 damage to it without even penetrating anything. Could be an unpopular opinion, but I find that dumb. Maus is armour and HP. And they just ignore the armour.


Edited by Ryn1k, 17 July 2019 - 11:58 AM.





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