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Idea for unbalanced battles


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Geoffrey_Ironfist #1 Posted 17 July 2019 - 01:16 PM

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Games are sometimes unbalanced because there are a lot of less able or new players playing. I have started checking the stats of other players after a crazy landslide defeat or victory and in such games there were a lot of players with winrates around 45-48% or less with maybe just one or two players with winrates above 50% per team. If one of the better players gets killed early, the other team wins. If all the lemmings go one way and a decent player decides to hold the other flank on his own and gets a stampede of lemmings from the enemy team and dies early, that can decide such battles.

 

How can there be so many unskilled players? Who wins if everyone has such low winrates? I saw someone with a winrate of 34% and less than 50 battles driving a top tier VIII Skorpion G in a platoon of 2 Skorpion Gs. His platoon mate had a little better stats with around 250 battles. Between them, they caused 0 damage in that battle. Almost everyone else in that team had tanks 1 or 2 tiers lower. How can this team win? I guess there are a lot of such people who just play a few hundred games and then quit and that may be why there are so few people with average/decent winrates in teams. Only that can explain it.

 

My proposed solution: Maybe such players should play on a different league, like an entry level league, maybe on a separate server. It would be more enjoyable for everyone. What do you think?



XxKuzkina_MatxX #2 Posted 17 July 2019 - 01:26 PM

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I think educating the players through tutorials and guides with multiple levels of difficulty is a better idea than segregation!

24doom24 #3 Posted 17 July 2019 - 01:31 PM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 17 July 2019 - 12:26 PM, said:

I think educating the players through tutorials and guides with multiple levels of difficulty is a better idea than segregation!

 

Too bad WG are crap and can't do anything right.:trollface:

Geoffrey_Ironfist #4 Posted 17 July 2019 - 01:34 PM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 17 July 2019 - 01:26 PM, said:

I think educating the players through tutorials and guides with multiple levels of difficulty is a better idea than segregation!

 

There are already tutorials and guides also on the official WG site and there is the forum and youtube. Multiple levels of difficulty sounds like a nice idea, that might work but you should maybe only be allowed to move up one level at most and on condition that your current winrate does not drop below 45% or something along such lines.



Captain_Kremen0 #5 Posted 17 July 2019 - 01:34 PM

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Oh - it's another skill based MM thread - didn't we have one already?

 



XxKuzkina_MatxX #6 Posted 17 July 2019 - 01:35 PM

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View Post24doom24, on 17 July 2019 - 04:31 PM, said:

Too bad WG are crap and can't do anything right.:trollface:

 

The 3 of us being here is enough evidence against that statement. They must be doing something right.



Captain_Kremen0 #7 Posted 17 July 2019 - 01:37 PM

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View PostGeoffrey_Ironfist, on 17 July 2019 - 12:34 PM, said:

 

There are already tutorials and guides also on the official WG site and there is the forum and youtube. Multiple levels of difficulty sounds like a nice idea, that might work but you should maybe only be allowed to move up one level at most and on condition that your current winrate does not drop below 45% or something along such lines.

 

Why - those 45% WR players are the reason there are 55% players out there. Its basic f**ing maths that there are both low and high WR players, and afaik 48 is pretty much a server average

Geoffrey_Ironfist #8 Posted 17 July 2019 - 01:39 PM

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View PostCaptain_Kremen0, on 17 July 2019 - 01:34 PM, said:

Oh - it's another skill based MM thread - didn't we have one already?

 

 

This is not necessarily about skilled-based matchmaking but about possible solutions to unbalanced battles. Maybe one solution would be to play with a fixed team or to choose your own teammates from a list by clicking on their names or something else.

 

View PostCaptain_Kremen0, on 17 July 2019 - 01:37 PM, said:

 

Why - those 45% WR players are the reason there are 55% players out there. Its basic f**ing maths that there are both low and high WR players, and afaik 48 is pretty much a server average

 

But as I said, whenever I checked, the teams consisted of players with winrates below 48%. I did not do a statistic but 48% was certainly not average for either team. It was more like a lot of players with a winrate around 45-47%. Some had winrates as low as 40% or less. But many players play at tiers IX-X and there teams may be more balanced maybe. I don't know because I do not have tier IX-X tanks. However, what might work as server average, does not seem to be the case if you play at tier VIII and below, at least much of the time. You may check it for yourself.

 

 


Edited by Geoffrey_Ironfist, 17 July 2019 - 02:17 PM.


XxKuzkina_MatxX #9 Posted 17 July 2019 - 01:40 PM

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View PostGeoffrey_Ironfist, on 17 July 2019 - 04:34 PM, said:

There are already tutorials and guides also on the official WG site and there is the forum and youtube. Multiple levels of difficulty sounds like a nice idea, that might work but you should maybe only be allowed to move up one level at most and on condition that your current winrate does not drop below 45% or something along such lines.

 

In-depth guides and tutorials based on the data collected from the server (heat maps) not just the regular videos showing the tank's stats. Integrated into the game client, something like this...

 



Geoffrey_Ironfist #10 Posted 17 July 2019 - 02:03 PM

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I agree on education, but clearly you demonstrated that the material is already out there and the problem is not going away. Maybe a lot of players don't care about watching this stuff or do not understand it because of their poor knowledge of English, or just don't want to feel like they have to go to school just to play a computer game. I think there is also another problem. Some players just don't seem to care about winning. I saw once a player with over 50,000 battles and a winrate around 44% who never shot once during the battle, and similarly with players with around 10,000 - 20,000 battles or more. After the battle was over, when I asked them why they were not shooting, they rarely replied or told me to f*** off, or that they "don't know why", or gave me other weird answers like that. So not all less able players are noobs, some just don't seem to care.

Edited by Geoffrey_Ironfist, 17 July 2019 - 02:21 PM.


XxKuzkina_MatxX #11 Posted 17 July 2019 - 02:24 PM

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View PostGeoffrey_Ironfist, on 17 July 2019 - 05:03 PM, said:

I agree on education, but clearly you demonstrated that the material is already out there and the problem is not going away. I think there is also another problem. Some players just don't seem to care about winning. I saw once a player with over 50,000 battles and a winrate around 44% who never shot once during the battle, and similarly with players with around 10,000 - 20,000 battles or more. When I asked them why they were not shooting after the battle was over, they rarely replied or told me to f*** off, or that they "don't know why", or gave me other weird answers like that. So not all less able players are noobs, some just don't seem to care.

 

The material is out there but it isn't complete and it isn't readily accessible from the client which is a big issue in my opinion. Being part of the game client helps even people who aren't interested in winning. Positioning and decision making are 90% of the problem. If you eliminate, or at least mitigate, these issues people could take a different view of their battles and their actions in them. But that can't happen without enough knowledge.

 

The game itself is pretty simple, crude even in some areas, but it requires knowing a lot of things. Provide that information in an easily accessible and well presented way and winning or losing will have a more valuable meaning than they have now!

 

I am glad you took the time to watch the video.



NUKLEAR_SLUG #12 Posted 17 July 2019 - 02:25 PM

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View PostGeoffrey_Ironfist, on 17 July 2019 - 01:39 PM, said:

This is not necessarily about skilled-based matchmaking but about possible solutions to unbalanced battles. Maybe one solution would be to play with a fixed team or to choose your own teammates from a list by clicking on their names or something else.

 

It's exactly about skill based matchmaking because that's what you are asking for segregating players by WR.

 

No, randoms are random and you get just as many bad players on your team as the enemy does on theirs so it balances out. The deciding factor is you, so if you want to win more then play better. Clans exist if you want fixed team content. 



WhoCares01 #13 Posted 17 July 2019 - 02:30 PM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 17 July 2019 - 02:25 PM, said:

 

It's exactly about skill based matchmaking because that's what you are asking for segregating players by WR.

 

No, randoms are random and you get just as many bad players on your team as the enemy does on theirs so it balances out. The deciding factor is you, so if you want to win more then play better. Clans exist if you want fixed team content. 

 

But why is it required to segregate players by WR? No need to segregate to unicum and tomato battles to have balanced teams.

Wouldn't it be enough to balance such that unicums and tomatoes are evenly distributed over teams (and maybe tiers, to reflect the carry "potential/requirement" of the top tiers). 


Edited by WhoCares01, 17 July 2019 - 02:31 PM.


shikaka9 #14 Posted 17 July 2019 - 02:33 PM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 17 July 2019 - 12:26 PM, said:

I think educating the players through tutorials and guides with multiple levels of difficulty is a better idea than segregation!

 

people come here not to learn, they just want shoot'n'go . and of course gameplay doesnt require much thinking, just wallet on critical moments :honoring:



Geoffrey_Ironfist #15 Posted 17 July 2019 - 02:35 PM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 17 July 2019 - 02:25 PM, said:

 

It's exactly about skill based matchmaking because that's what you are asking for segregating players by WR.

 

No, randoms are random and you get just as many bad players on your team as the enemy does on theirs so it balances out. The deciding factor is you, so if you want to win more then play better. Clans exist if you want fixed team content. 

 

Honestly I do not know how to segregate them, maybe number of battles or whatever. I did not suggest winrate, although that would be an obvious option. It could be also something else like not using mods in combination.

 

I am an average player. My skill is somehow green, at least recently. Checking this, https://en.wot-life....eu/serverstats/, it shows that those in the green or above are in the minority. I am not sure how that matches an average server winrate of 49% but let it be. So if I get killed early in the game or if the corresponding player in the enemy team gets killed early in the game, this battle could be decided by just killing that one player. If one of us has a mod that shows who the decent/average player is and tells his team to go there because he's in a TD or something and he is likely there, that could decide it.



kaneloon #16 Posted 17 July 2019 - 02:36 PM

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Most 45% players don't care about WR - I certainly didn't.

A nice game always happens from time to time, and "nice" at that level is pretty cheap. Grinding and discovering the game the hard way - without any help - is respectable.

Why would they care about try harders or stats farmers/padders or seal clubbers - it's part of their surroundings.

Only good players are interested in good stats.



tajj7 #17 Posted 17 July 2019 - 02:45 PM

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Better education is needed, more tutorials, tools etc.

 

Also the overall gameplay needs to move backwards towards the harder environment WOTs used to be, there is too much idiot proofing in the game now which just breeds players who lack the skills to cope with the game.

 

Corridor maps, OP camping spots that require no effort, heavies that just bounce everything, vehicles that are all round complete and have weaknesses, easy mode arty, all those things have crept into the game over the last 2-3 years and the players now learning the game are not taught the hard way, they play these easy playstyle vehicles on maps that don't challenge them and learn very little.

 

When they then are on the more challenging maps, or in more challenging tanks, or just more challenging situations (like having to leave their OP base camping ledge to help the team win) they have no idea what to do.

 

Make the games learning curve harder and natural selection will take care of the rest, players will either adapt and overcome, or fall by the wayside. 



Geoffrey_Ironfist #18 Posted 17 July 2019 - 02:54 PM

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I think some players just sit there to get credits. I sometimes question after a battle players who were not contributing. A guy in a top tier Kranvagn in a 3-5-7 style battle had once sat in the corner (literally) and did not do anything until he was killed. He told me afterwards that he did not want to lose money from firing his gun. He accused everyone else for being a noob and that was his excuse. But he was the one who did not contribute at all.

 

So I am not sure it's about natural selection. Some people get tier VIII premiums even while they are new players, or even manage to grind their way to tier X and still don't care.



Robbie_T #19 Posted 17 July 2019 - 03:11 PM

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Since 2019 i see a huge influx of bad games..

I will be honest 2018 i always ended around 50% wins end of the day....and in the weekends platooning up with the clan the winrate was even more.

But since 2019 i really struggle to get a 50% winrate..especially in the weekends or during events......since 2019 it will be around 35%.

 

The reason this happening is the HUGE boost in xp...

If you start now you will get a free tier 6 play 1 weekend and you in tier 9 with 300 battles experience..

So you get players now that should be in tier 3 in a tier 9 battle...

 

Also due to the huge xp boost you will get new players that are not commited to the game.

Also a lot of 43% 30kbattle cupcakes came back.....so in the weekend you will be matched up with 6 new players 6 cupcakes and than maybe 2 decent players.

While it used to be 3 cupcakes ....8 average players...and 4 good players.

 

What i see now in my clan people staying offline in the weekends because even if you platoon with some good players (55%+)its horrible.

You just cant win and if you do...you boosted the cupcakes for real!

And  me personally is a 49% winrate players...i cant bend battles to a win...but if you have 2 55%+ players with you and still you get your [edited]kicked.

With half you team is dead in 2 min without doing dmg.....

you tend to logg off..

 

 

 



Geoffrey_Ironfist #20 Posted 17 July 2019 - 03:28 PM

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I have not played this game long enough to know how it was. Just by looking at the stats of my teams after a battle and looking at the lack of performance of many players, I get the impression that some players either don't care or are not up to the level that they can contribute and just do things at random and maybe by chance a decent player of one of the teams will get killed early and then it may turn out as a landslide victory for the other team and this seems to happen often.

 

I have not even noticed that one team is clearly worse than the other when I check the stats afterwards. However, somehow one or two decent players may not make a huge difference against the randomness and unpredictability of many other team members. So it is not even about getting balanced teams in terms of average skill over the whole team. It is more an issue with there being 3-4 people on one team who just don't care about winning or are somehow incapacitated by not having a good internet connection or maybe not having hands or a mouse, I don't know. I am also not saying I always lose, I have as many landslide victories as defeats. The problem is when the landslide begins, maybe unless you are a unicum, you are doomed. Or if you are in a Matilda or an AMX-40 and your team is winning, you may consider yourself lucky to encounter an enemy tank that is not already dead.

 

One solution then would be to have a 5 min chat before the battle with your random team mates and while knowing the map and on which side of the map you will start, to come up with a battle plan, so that everyone has a basic idea of what to do and everyone has some knowledge of what and how much to expect from each other to minimise WoT chaos.

 

 


Edited by Geoffrey_Ironfist, 17 July 2019 - 03:39 PM.





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