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Wg could you please fix the meta in Tier 10?


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Ricky_Rolls #1 Posted 19 July 2019 - 11:57 AM

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I mean sure, it's fun to drive a broken tank that pretty much nobody have, don't get me wrong, but it has to come to an end at one point.

 

First, the sheer concept of special tanks, either rewards or premium, being better than standard ones is one of the unhealthiest mojo in my opinion. Also, the biggest problem imo is the fact that WG take WAY TOO MUCH TIME to do something in term of the overall meta. A patch pretty much every 3 months, with only a handfull of tanks being touched. Takes them 1 year to nerf a tank, 3 years to buff one (when they still remember they even implemented the tank in the first place, e50m and 268 salutes you), while  the nerfs are almost always off the mark, nerfing the gun when the armor is the main problem is the best example. The meta has to change more often, it's ok to buff and nerf a tank on the same characterictics within the same year, there's nothing wrong with that and that's something a lot of successful games have already understood.

 

 

There are a couple of problems with OP special tanks, the first one being the exclusivity, which is a good a thing when you're among those you have it and as long as it stays exclusive, obviously. Problems appears when alot more peoples get the tank. Sounds douchey? It sure is, but sadly it's how it works. It's fun to be able to drive an exclusive tank while coming across one once every 50 battles, it's quite the opposite when you're facing the same tank in 3/4 of your games. Limitating the amount of tanks fiven by a way or another or tweaking the mm is definitely not an answer.

 

Secondly, the policy of WG regarding those tanks. "

Q: Any plans on balancing Chieftain, 279e, and 907? Currently they massively outperform tech tree tanks.

 

A: This issue is quite delicate. From one side those tanks are rewards for high-end activities, so players expect them to be quite powerful. And they are.

However, one cannot say that those tanks have no weak spots to counter them in battle. From the other side, while some tanks are possessed only by top skilled players, it is hard to make conclusions that they massively outperform the others."

 

Nothing else to say.

 

By the end of the year when the next campaign will be over, how's ranked (which is imo the most toxic mod ever implemented, by far) and especially random gonna look like? With the 279 missions becoming easier once every 2 patches, with tons of peoples having the 260, what is it gonna be like?

 

If those tanks would have been implemented 4 or 5 years ago, peoples would have been so chocked and upset they would have had to either remove them completely or nerf to the ground in an hotfix within a week. Nowadays it feels like it's normal when it's really not. Powercreep has to stop.

 

About the chieftain, i would personnally nerf the turret to something close to the values of the chieftain mk6, maybe slightly higher, but way more reasonable than what it is now. For the 260, nerfing the top speed to 40kph and the lower plate would be a good start. 

The 279 being a special case due to this abnormal armor layout, you really can't touch the armor without making him near impenetrable or completely useless (remember the peoples crying when it came out?), the only remaining solution being the gun, nerf the accuracy to 0.38 and the aim time to 2.7, at the very least.

 

I just don't want the Tier 10 to become more and more toxic every patch, and i'm not even talking about competitive where the only 2 standard tanks you will ever find are the EBR and CGC.

 

 



Bora_BOOM #2 Posted 19 July 2019 - 12:22 PM

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Faced a 279e with a top player (12000+ personal rating) from a top clan. He held the heavy choke point on Fjords pretty much alone. At the beginning of the battle couple of players noticed him and the tank, so we knew what was going to happen to all of us driving there. Although we won, cause our team was overall better, he did exceptionally well. It was because of his skill and the tank he was driving. 6k or something.

Now, that was a combination of a perfect player and an OP tank which is something you will not see every battle and I have nothing against that occasionally. OP is right, seeing that tank more often in a similar position on any map wouldn't be good for the game.

I was lucky to be the one who killed him, but only after I went around the hill and shot him in his turret side with Foch 155 gold pen. After the battle, I PM-ed him, congratulated for his performance and said that 279e is broken. He replied: "yeah, it is". What else is there to say?

 

Oh, wait:

 

How is WG going to fix them tanks I don't know, but I doubt nerfing is something we will see.

At least they should take care of limiting them. That is why we might have tanks for bonds in the future.

:facepalm:


Edited by Bora_BOOM, 19 July 2019 - 12:31 PM.


bgjudge #3 Posted 19 July 2019 - 12:31 PM

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View PostRicky_Rolls, on 19 July 2019 - 10:57 AM, said:

I mean sure, it's fun to drive a broken tank that pretty much nobody have, don't get me wrong, but it has to come to an end at one point.

 

First, the sheer concept of special tanks, either rewards or premium, being better than standard ones is one of the unhealthiest mojo in my opinion. Also, the biggest problem imo is the fact that WG take WAY TOO MUCH TIME to do something in term of the overall meta. A patch pretty much every 3 months, with only a handfull of tanks being touched. Takes them 1 year to nerf a tank, 3 years to buff one (when they still remember they even implemented the tank in the first place, e50m and 268 salutes you), while  the nerfs are almost always off the mark, nerfing the gun when the armor is the main problem is the best example. The meta has to change more often, it's ok to buff and nerf a tank on the same characterictics within the same year, there's nothing wrong with that and that's something a lot of successful games have already understood.

 

 

There are a couple of problems with OP special tanks, the first one being the exclusivity, which is a good a thing when you're among those you have it and as long as it stays exclusive, obviously. Problems appears when alot more peoples get the tank. Sounds douchey? It sure is, but sadly it's how it works. It's fun to be able to drive an exclusive tank while coming across one once every 50 battles, it's quite the opposite when you're facing the same tank in 3/4 of your games. Limitating the amount of tanks fiven by a way or another or tweaking the mm is definitely not an answer.

 

Secondly, the policy of WG regarding those tanks. "

Q: Any plans on balancing Chieftain, 279e, and 907? Currently they massively outperform tech tree tanks.

 

A: This issue is quite delicate. From one side those tanks are rewards for high-end activities, so players expect them to be quite powerful. And they are.

However, one cannot say that those tanks have no weak spots to counter them in battle. From the other side, while some tanks are possessed only by top skilled players, it is hard to make conclusions that they massively outperform the others."

 

Nothing else to say.

 

By the end of the year when the next campaign will be over, how's ranked (which is imo the most toxic mod ever implemented, by far) and especially random gonna look like? With the 279 missions becoming easier once every 2 patches, with tons of peoples having the 260, what is it gonna be like?

 

If those tanks would have been implemented 4 or 5 years ago, peoples would have been so chocked and upset they would have had to either remove them completely or nerf to the ground in an hotfix within a week. Nowadays it feels like it's normal when it's really not. Powercreep has to stop.

 

About the chieftain, i would personnally nerf the turret to something close to the values of the chieftain mk6, maybe slightly higher, but way more reasonable than what it is now. For the 260, nerfing the top speed to 40kph and the lower plate would be a good start. 

The 279 being a special case due to this abnormal armor layout, you really can't touch the armor without making him near impenetrable or completely useless (remember the peoples crying when it came out?), the only remaining solution being the gun, nerf the accuracy to 0.38 and the aim time to 2.7, at the very least.

 

I just don't want the Tier 10 to become more and more toxic every patch, and i'm not even talking about competitive where the only 2 standard tanks you will ever find are the EBR and CGC.

 

 

 

WG are famous with their BALANCING DEPARTMENT ! From OP premiums to useless tech tree tanks collecting dust for 3-4 years and more...

#British Light Tanks  coming

#useless German LTs

#Chinese Medium tanks (LOL there is a chinese MT tech tree ??? WTF )

#Op Ruskiii Tonks... ( obj-mobject and others...)

#Op Premiums

#Op "reward tanks" ( so many f-ing years of playing without Clan and no one is giving to the regular player anything....why the [edited]I have to fight against MORE OP SHITS  ;)

#Many Many other things......

 

p.s. Just wait and watch how WoT population is dying, leaving only OLD members with broken tanks, no one grinding the TECH TREE...LOTS OF FUN WG , TONS OF FUN!



Ricky_Rolls #4 Posted 19 July 2019 - 12:32 PM

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I've played more than 48k games in T10 since the beta pretty much, and this is by far the most toxic meta i've seen.

Rati_Festa #5 Posted 19 July 2019 - 12:41 PM

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View PostBora_BOOM, on 19 July 2019 - 12:22 PM, said:

Faced a 279e with a top player (12000+ personal rating) from a top clan. He held the heavy choke point on Fjords pretty much alone. At the beginning of the battle couple of players noticed him and the tank, so we knew what was going to happen to all of us driving there. Although we won, cause our team was overall better, he did exceptionally well. It was because of his skill and the tank he was driving. 6k or something.

Now, that was a combination of a perfect player and an OP tank which is something you will not see every battle and I have nothing against that occasionally. OP is right, seeing that tank more often in a similar position on any map wouldn't be good for the game.

I was lucky to be the one who killed him, but only after I went around the hill and shot him in his turret side with Foch 155 gold pen. After the battle, I PM-ed him, congratulated for his performance and said that 279e is broken. He replied: "yeah, it is". What else is there to say?

 

Oh, wait:

 

How is WG going to fix them tanks I don't know, but I doubt nerfing is something we will see.

At least they should take care of limiting them. That is why we might have tanks for bonds in the future.

:facepalm:

 

One of the problems giving excellent players excellent tanks is how you balance them. As you aren't looking at the whole spectrum of skill sets, so if WG were to basically attempt to get a balance of 50% wr on all tanks, then in theory reward tanks would have to be inferior to balance out the skills differences.

 

The whole idea of "special" tanks it a broken concept in a competitive game, it will eventually just drive players away. It frustrates all the lesser skilled players and will bore all the better-skilled players... = no fun = no players.



XxKuzkina_MatxX #6 Posted 19 July 2019 - 12:43 PM

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WG are very conservative when it comes to buffing and nerfing tanks. They don't like frequent changes and see it as a sign of instability. That was said many times over the years by the developers and by their staff.

 

Strong reward tanks are their way of appeasing the good players same as introducing a strong standard/premium tier 8 for the average player. That's not a balance fail on their part, that's intentional and the negative effect is calculated and limited by availability.

 

People may have different views and different opinions of this but they will work hard for a good reward all the same. Then complain about it being too strong later! :)



Rati_Festa #7 Posted 19 July 2019 - 12:48 PM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 19 July 2019 - 12:43 PM, said:

WG are very conservative when it comes to buffing and nerfing tanks. They don't like frequent changes and see it as a sign of instability. That was said many times over the years by the developers and by their staff.

 

Strong reward tanks are their way of appeasing the good players same as introducing a strong standard/premium tier 8 for the average player. That's not a balance fail on their part, that's intentional and the negative effect is calculated and limited by availability.

 

People may have different views and different opinions of this but they will work hard for a good reward all the same. Then complain about it being too strong later! :)

 

Appeasing them for what?

 

That implies they have something to be sorry for... 

 

Its a horrible balance problem as you can see from the forum feedback, it cause so much frustration. Its alienated most players from Ranked.



Naive #8 Posted 19 July 2019 - 12:54 PM

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What needs to happen is a nerf of quite a few tanks.


Yes first of all the 279e and the T95 reward tanks. Its Ok for now since few people have them, but if this would become the norm, you'd have ranked battles, with everyone impenetrable hulldown shooting HE at each other.

 

Together with that a heaviums and some heavies need to be nerfed. Like 430U, 260, 5A. Basically tanks without any drawbacks. They have speed, armor, mobility, good guns with good alpha.

 

 



Balc0ra #9 Posted 19 July 2019 - 12:56 PM

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Tier for tier I feel tier 8 is more out of wack. Tier X has some tanks that are way off sure. But when most the old HT's on tier 8 can't pen the new armor head on with a 30% chance even. So tbh... I would not mind them fixing that first before tier X.

Bora_BOOM #10 Posted 19 July 2019 - 12:56 PM

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View PostRati_Festa, on 19 July 2019 - 11:41 AM, said:

 

One of the problems giving excellent players excellent tanks is how you balance them. As you aren't looking at the whole spectrum of skill sets, so if WG were to basically attempt to get a balance of 50% wr on all tanks, then in theory reward tanks would have to be inferior to balance out the skills differences.

 

The whole idea of "special" tanks it a broken concept in a competitive game, it will eventually just drive players away. It frustrates all the lesser skilled players and will bore all the better-skilled players... = no fun = no players.

 

Top players in top tanks is not something that will ruin the randoms imo. Having in mind the low % of players that are unicums, and then add the fact not all have all the tanks makes the number rather small. This, of course, does not diminish the fact something should be done. On the other hand, other modes like CW and ranked are probably under a significant influence. Making them available to more players in randoms would be bad as well.


Edited by Bora_BOOM, 19 July 2019 - 12:58 PM.


AXIS_OF_RESISTANCE #11 Posted 19 July 2019 - 12:59 PM

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There is no such thing as overpowerd ,there is just more optimal choices  .

OllieCromwell #12 Posted 19 July 2019 - 01:05 PM

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View PostNaive, on 19 July 2019 - 12:54 PM, said:

...

Yes first of all the 279e and the T95 reward tanks. ...

...

 

Met quite a few T95 reward tanks last night, and to add insult to injury ... literaly all of them where spamming 'special' ammo like there was no tomorrow ...  

 

*Much fun* was had.



ExclamationMark #13 Posted 19 July 2019 - 01:11 PM

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I understand why reward tanks are designed to be good, but it's just bad for gameplay. The sad part is, they're not even premium tanks, just reward vehicles. So WG can nerf them all they want, unlike regular premium tanks.

XxKuzkina_MatxX #14 Posted 19 July 2019 - 01:15 PM

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View PostRati_Festa, on 19 July 2019 - 03:48 PM, said:

Appeasing them for what?

 

That implies they have something to be sorry for... 

 

Its a horrible balance problem as you can see from the forum feedback, it cause so much frustration. Its alienated most players from Ranked.

 

"Keep them interested" is better?

fwhaatpiraat #15 Posted 19 July 2019 - 01:19 PM

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Good post of you, honestly. The (im)balance of tier X is nothing new. Powercreep and broken vehicles is not the exception, it's the rule. To name a few vehicles: introduction of 140 outclassing T62A, buffed 907 outclassing 140, 2013 Foch 155, Wt auf E100, pre-nerf Grille, Bobject, 430U, 183mm 1750 damage guns with 270 (now 230) penetration, TVP50/51, etc. Or the most popular vehicles in cw: Type 5 Heavy, 907 and WZ5a in the campaign at the end of 2k17, now it is Chieftain, 907, 260, 279 and ebr. No WZ-5a and type 5 at all, basically, they got replaced already.

 

But even though this terrible balance and power creep is nothing new, it still is really terrible. Besides that, the players became much more tryhard as well: all premium consumables, full premium shell loadout is nothing special, improved equipment and so on. For casual players, or players without premium account there is no level playing field at all; it is impossible to grind as many credits or bonds to play the same as the dedicated players.

 

But still, it seems WG is fine with this. Obviously they never cared about game and tank balance, someone that tries to defend that is delusional. WG exists to make money, not to create a well balanced game. Things were different in the history of video gaming though... First of all it seems unlikely that the Chieftain gets nerfed (imagine the same mobility as Super Conqueror and I doubt we will see that many in competitive modes). 279e, dunno about that one, but it either becomes an hp piñata or the monster it is now. Standard shells having no chance against that vehicle is a terrible way of game design. 260 and other 'heaviums' (aka master of all trades, jack of none) like 5a, 113, IS7 and 277 just need a plain nerf, it's obvious! Those things (which I really like playing, just like the IS8/T10) make many mediums and even light tanks superfluous.

 

To be fair (and even hopeful): I ain't see it happen that this game will become more balanced in the future. The 'year of balance' (was that 2016 or 2017?) was the initial move towards more pay to win and OP vehicles. Secondly, nerfing the 260, 279e (let alone the 907 and Chieftain) will cause a massive uproar of upset players. Just overbuffing tech tree tanks is not a solution either, it's the continuation of the problem. Thirdly, it's easy to blame WG, but the players also happily adapt to only the strongest tanks and tryhard setups. Despite people (for instance in this topic) claiming disliking imbalance and OP tanks, those are the vehicles that get played the most! What will be the next reward tank? Will it be something as strong (meta) as the 907 and Chieftain? Will it be a new must have (strength wise) light tank? Or will it be some really terrible vehicle that no one really wants (least likely but still). The road WG has chosen years and years ago make it harder and harder to get a well balanced game and also harder to please (retain) a large part of the player base, I'd say. We will see.



Ricky_Rolls #16 Posted 19 July 2019 - 01:34 PM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 19 July 2019 - 12:43 PM, said:

WG are very conservative when it comes to buffing and nerfing tanks. They don't like frequent changes and see it as a sign of instability. That was said many times over the years by the developers and by their staff.

 

Strong reward tanks are their way of appeasing the good players same as introducing a strong standard/premium tier 8 for the average player. That's not a balance fail on their part, that's intentional and the negative effect is calculated and limited by availability.

 

People may have different views and different opinions of this but they will work hard for a good reward all the same. Then complain about it being too strong later! :)

 

Well, their mindset is massively flawed.

XxKuzkina_MatxX #17 Posted 19 July 2019 - 01:57 PM

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View PostRicky_Rolls, on 19 July 2019 - 04:34 PM, said:

Well, their mindset is massively flawed.

 

I am not sure about "massively flawed", it seems shallow and even crude sometimes but when it comes to percentages and numbers their strategy is excellent. They can condition a response perfectly through the most innocent looking decisions. Studying their player base carefully could be the real (only) reason this game is still alive today.



Gremlin182 #18 Posted 19 July 2019 - 02:28 PM

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The more complicated the game the harder it is to balance it

 

When balancing the game comes up what seems obvious to us may not be.

I am sure most of us could go through all the tanks in the game adding numbers here taking them away elsewhere.

Would that even work, I have seen every "problem" in the game sorted out in posts on this very forum.

 

If wargaming did what we asked all at one time I suspect we would hate it.

Their way seems to be wait and see how the tanks are playing out making a list and then doing just a few changes.

It takes years to make all those changes.

 

Of course they could in one patch remove all SPGs Heavily Nerf Premium ammo

Buff every single underperforming tanks and nerf every overperforming tank add weak spots to all tanks.

Then wait for the Forum to explode as we all tell them what idiots they are and things were better before they messed with it.

 

Every single change to one thing alters the entire game and probably breaks something else.

 

10 tanks and say 5 maps easy to balance

50 tanks 20 maps take a bit longer but its not unreasonable to make it balanced.

132 Lights  174 Mediums 118 Heavy tanks 119 TDs and 52 SPGs thats 595 tanks of 5 very different types in 10 levels meeting on something like 38 different maps.

You want all that balancing and you want them to rush doing it.

 

 



pecopad #19 Posted 19 July 2019 - 02:30 PM

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JUST DECREASE AMMO AND REPAIR COST, in tier 9 and 10.

 

No point in grinding for tanks to have them parked in the garage because it costs 50K every time you play a game.


Edited by pecopad, 19 July 2019 - 02:30 PM.


Rati_Festa #20 Posted 19 July 2019 - 02:35 PM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 19 July 2019 - 01:57 PM, said:

 

I am not sure about "massively flawed", it seems shallow and even crude sometimes but when it comes to percentages and numbers their strategy is excellent. They can condition a response perfectly through the most innocent looking decisions. Studying their player base carefully could be the real (only) reason this game is still alive today.

 

That's a rather optimistic view of their balance decisions in game. You only have to look at the EBR 75, which is significantly better than the Lynx, has spoiled FL for a lot of players and on top of that can't be nerfed due to premium status. I'm not a WV hater but I can quite clearly see its not been a PR success.

 

Who in their right might would introduce a set of controversial vehicles and make the best one tier for tier the premium.

 

If you are to introduce tanks that are at the extremes, then you need to be able to tweak them quickly if needed. Due to the inclusion of the OP CW tanks and Campaign tanks my delve into Ranked was very brief, I'm not an excellent player but I am in the top 10%, if I'm detered due to inability to compete then its pretty clear that an awful lot of the player base are in the same or worse scenario, would also be.

 

Creating end game content that is only relevant to a small part of your playerbase ( due to the inclusion of other endgame content ) does seem quite an interesting way of running a game.






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