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Bulldog_Drummond #1 Posted 27 July 2019 - 08:18 PM

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We had a very winnable game on Karelia Assault just now as the attackers and were 8-5 up in a Tier 5/6 game but it all fell apart as half our team decided that the way to win was to camp base.  We lost.

 

A post game pm conversation with one of the campers below.  Am I right or is he?  We both have similar WN8 ratings.  I was in a tier 6 Bretagne Panther medium, he was in a tier 5 PzKw T25 medium.

 

  • Bulldog_Drummond (19:56:16) Useless waste of space
  •  (20:00:04) why?
  •  (20:01:44) you did 100 dmg more than me, but you was another tier mongol :D why asking for spot 5 tier med agains e25, when e25 see whole map and i just 375meter arround?
  • Bulldog_Drummond (20:01:53) because you camped base in assault and tried to be a sniper, waste of time
  •  (20:02:21) waste of time for me too, i want that mm not :D
  • Bulldog_Drummond (20:03:03) only a +1 game for you, big deal, you did nothing to help win
  • Bulldog_Drummond (20:03:25) I killed 2 and got the spots, you sat on your arse
  •  (20:04:37) i have one kill too, and dmg only 100 lower than you imbecil :D:D
  • Bulldog_Drummond (20:05:31) yeah but your kill and damage was useless at base in an assault game. any idiot can do that. it wont win
  • Bulldog_Drummond (20:05:55) 11 shots 3 pens. T25 is no sniper
  •  (20:06:12) i cant go agains e25 supported with LefH , that is real suicide, and with our TD tier VII on another side of wall is that total imbecil idea to try spot something
  • Bulldog_Drummond (20:06:38) ok so you sat base and we lost anyway. great strategy
  •  (20:06:47) t25 is not sniper, but they was running another side to counter our arty.
  •  (20:07:01) yes, we lost, i had saved credits
  • Bulldog_Drummond (20:07:23) so you could have done something more useful than just camp
  • (20:14:49) ok, look, if i go, i can go max 200 meters, than i vill be spotted by e25, cromwell or thunderbolt, anyway, before i see one of them, i will be shotted like bukkake, than everyone start say: you idiot, why you did that . . . bla bla bla

Edited by Bulldog_Drummond, 27 July 2019 - 08:25 PM.


OmniWalou #2 Posted 27 July 2019 - 08:25 PM

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Was that person really the cause to a loss? What warranted you to PM that person especially? Or was it just a case of he/she was one of the last ones alive and you decided to take frustration out on him/her?

 

Too many times I've been falling back, been switching flanks through a safe route or such sort and get blamed to be the cause for a loss because someone happens to look at my position at the moment I'm not shooting an enemy or I'm generally just in defensive position.

 

Assaults nowadays (can't remember how they used to be since I had them turned off for a long time) are often a case of defending team pushing instead of defending. So ''camping'' in attack isn't always the worse solution.


All in all, can't really find a point for you to post this even as there is no context for it and we just have to take your word that the other person was just camping and doing nothing (which he/she quite obviously wasn't doing).


Edited by OmniWalou, 27 July 2019 - 08:25 PM.


NUKLEAR_SLUG #3 Posted 27 July 2019 - 08:27 PM

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People have an aversion to being shot, they will literally lose games rather than risk getting hurt. Not sure if it's a psychological thing or a cost issue because F2P.

Ogroid #4 Posted 27 July 2019 - 08:29 PM

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View PostBulldog_Drummond, on 27 July 2019 - 07:18 PM, said:

We had a very winnable game on Karelia Assault just now as the attackers and were 8-5 up in a Tier 5/6 game but it all fell apart as half our team decided that the way to win was to camp base.  We lost.

 

A post game pm conversation with one of the campers below.  Am I right or is he?  We both have similar WN8 ratings.  I was in a tier 6 Bretagne Panther medium, he was in a tier 5 PzKw T25 medium.

 

  • Bulldog_Drummond (19:56:16) Useless waste of space
  •  (20:00:04) why?
  •  (20:01:44) you did 100 dmg more than me, but you was another tier mongol :D why asking for spot 5 tier med agains e25, when e25 see whole map and i just 375meter arround?
  • Bulldog_Drummond (20:01:53) because you camped base in assault and tried to be a sniper, waste of time
  •  (20:02:21) waste of time for me too, i want that mm not :D
  • Bulldog_Drummond (20:03:03) only a +1 game for you, big deal, you did nothing to help win
  • Bulldog_Drummond (20:03:25) I killed 2 and got the spots, you sat on your arse
  •  (20:04:37) i have one kill too, and dmg only 100 lower than you imbecil :D:D
  • Bulldog_Drummond (20:05:31) yeah but your kill and damage was useless at base in an assault game. any idiot can do that. it wont win
  • Bulldog_Drummond (20:05:55) 11 shots 3 pens. T25 is no sniper
  •  (20:06:12) i cant go agains e25 supported with LefH , that is real suicide, and with our TD tier VII on another side of wall is that total imbecil idea to try spot something
  • Bulldog_Drummond (20:06:38) ok so you sat base and we lost anyway. great strategy
  •  (20:06:47) t25 is not sniper, but they was running another side to counter our arty.
  •  (20:07:01) yes, we lost, i had saved credits
  • Bulldog_Drummond (20:07:23) so you could have done something more useful than just camp
  • (20:14:49) ok, look, if i go, i can go max 200 meters, than i vill be spotted by e25, cromwell or thunderbolt, anyway, before i see one of them, i will be shotted like bukkake, than everyone start say: you idiot, why you did that . . . bla bla bla

 

You should grow the fork up, irritating old fart...



HaZardeur #5 Posted 27 July 2019 - 08:31 PM

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View PostBulldog_Drummond, on 27 July 2019 - 08:18 PM, said:

We had a very winnable game on Karelia Assault just now as the attackers and were 8-5 up in a Tier 5/6 game but it all fell apart as half our team decided that the way to win was to camp base.  We lost.

 

A post game pm conversation with one of the campers below.  Am I right or is he?  We both have similar WN8 ratings.  I was in a tier 6 Bretagne Panther medium, he was in a tier 5 PzKw T25 medium.

 

  • Bulldog_Drummond (19:56:16) Useless waste of space
  •  (20:00:04) why?
  •  (20:01:44) you did 100 dmg more than me, but you was another tier mongol :D why asking for spot 5 tier med agains e25, when e25 see whole map and i just 375meter arround?
  • Bulldog_Drummond (20:01:53) because you camped base in assault and tried to be a sniper, waste of time
  •  (20:02:21) waste of time for me too, i want that mm not :D
  • Bulldog_Drummond (20:03:03) only a +1 game for you, big deal, you did nothing to help win
  • Bulldog_Drummond (20:03:25) I killed 2 and got the spots, you sat on your arse
  •  (20:04:37) i have one kill too, and dmg only 100 lower than you imbecil :D:D
  • Bulldog_Drummond (20:05:31) yeah but your kill and damage was useless at base in an assault game. any idiot can do that. it wont win
  • Bulldog_Drummond (20:05:55) 11 shots 3 pens. T25 is no sniper
  •  (20:06:12) i cant go agains e25 supported with LefH , that is real suicide, and with our TD tier VII on another side of wall is that total imbecil idea to try spot something
  • Bulldog_Drummond (20:06:38) ok so you sat base and we lost anyway. great strategy
  •  (20:06:47) t25 is not sniper, but they was running another side to counter our arty.
  •  (20:07:01) yes, we lost, i had saved credits
  • Bulldog_Drummond (20:07:23) so you could have done something more useful than just camp
  • (20:14:49) ok, look, if i go, i can go max 200 meters, than i vill be spotted by e25, cromwell or thunderbolt, anyway, before i see one of them, i will be shotted like bukkake, than everyone start say: you idiot, why you did that . . . bla bla bla

 

You try to argue with people in game.... :teethhappy:



Negativvv #6 Posted 27 July 2019 - 08:31 PM

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Ultimately a loss is always someone else's fault...

 

I'm still trying to get the hang of knowing when to withdraw and spend HP.



gunslingerXXX #7 Posted 27 July 2019 - 08:37 PM

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Just go to general chat for the debate club, much faster than to find one in randoms willing to argue.

I do like his use of words though, so +1 for creativity.



spamhamstar #8 Posted 27 July 2019 - 08:38 PM

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Given that you messaged him this:

 

View PostBulldog_Drummond, on 27 July 2019 - 07:18 PM, said:

 
  • Bulldog_Drummond (19:56:16) Useless waste of space

 

before asking us this:

 

View PostBulldog_Drummond, on 27 July 2019 - 07:18 PM, said:

Am I right or is he?

 

I'd guess it's not you.  Hard to say for sure without watching the replay :sceptic:



kaneloon #9 Posted 27 July 2019 - 08:50 PM

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Other player penned 3 times in a Pz t25 (about 350 max dmg) and did 100 more damage than you ?

TungstenHitman #10 Posted 27 July 2019 - 08:53 PM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 27 July 2019 - 07:27 PM, said:

People have an aversion to being shot, they will literally lose games rather than risk getting hurt. Not sure if it's a psychological thing or a cost issue because F2P.

 

It's psychological I'd guess since I saw this behavior in situations where there is actually no cost to worry about like a couple of FL battles today during the last "Boss Battle" round in which after a long a hard fought battle there was the sole remaining enemy Tiger heading towards the redline which obviously results in a defeat and rather than die trying like I did, not one but two teammates just stayed behind cover, let the tracked Tiger I had just sacrificed myself to track go unchallenged, go unspotted and casually drive to our defeat while they hugged each other behind a rock or something... they preferred to lose. I mean, it's just beyond pathetic, to let all the effort that went before that point to get to that point just go, how can a person be that much of a spineless chicken in a video game? I'm not saying be a yolo or reckless idiot but when it's a point where the win or loss is literally right there in front of you, for foch sake grow some balls and a brain to realize that you gained nothing by surviving if the result is a defeat in a situation where winning is the objective, not surviving and losing... try and maybe die and lose anyway, but to not try is 100% a loss, anything better than those odds is worth trying and dying for, at least you'll find out what would have happened if you tried. 


Edited by TungstenHitman, 27 July 2019 - 08:54 PM.


Dorander #11 Posted 27 July 2019 - 08:54 PM

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Impossible to say from the setup and the rather uninformative conversation. It entirely depends on who's alive, in what state, where the enemies are, etc.. It's possible that sniping was the best decision for him (though given the 3 out of 11 pens he wasn't very good at that). It's possible it would've been a better idea to try SOMETHING even if that resulted in death, if the alternative is a guaranteed loss anyway. Such decisions are always situational.

 

I think I own that T25 tank he's in as well, it definitely isn't not a sniper. It's too much paper and not enough speed to be a mobile gun and against tier 7 it's just going to be a little helpless. He's right about being entirely outmatched by the E25 and Cromwell (I am less familiar with the Thunderbolt), but of course there's still things he possibly could've done depending on where they were. If he was full hp he could've spotted for other people, or even do something as simple as proxyspot, or move to a flank to help people there. There's seldomly one option and people frequently reduce situations to some sort of duel, which it isn't. However that doesn't mean his decision to snipe was automatically wrong.



24doom24 #12 Posted 27 July 2019 - 08:58 PM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 27 July 2019 - 07:27 PM, said:

People have an aversion to being shot, they will literally lose games rather than risk getting hurt. Not sure if it's a psychological thing or a cost issue because F2P.

Doesn't really explain how entire flanks of 6-7 heavy tanks disappear even though they were clearly winning the flank. 



Bulldog_Drummond #13 Posted 27 July 2019 - 09:32 PM

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View Postkaneloon, on 27 July 2019 - 07:50 PM, said:

Other player penned 3 times in a Pz t25 (about 350 max dmg) and did 100 more damage than you ?

 

No he did 100 less damage than I did, and came in at #12 by exp, I was at #6.  My gripe was that a fast medium tank with a poor accuracy gun is pretty useless camping the hill on Karelia assault.  You can argue as the T25 did that he would have been obliterated had he moved out but I would have thought that it was at least worth giving it a whirl as we had a couple of arty and some TDs who needed spotters.  As it was he got a bit of damage at end game never having moved from base.

 

This isn't so much a right or wrong question as one about attitudes.  In his situation in an assault I would have pushed, tried to get some spots, maybe a hit or two rather than moaning about being tier 5 in a tier 5/6 game.  That might or might not have worked better but I can't see any logic in a fast medium camping base the entire game .

 

Clearly I'm not going to post the replay


Edited by Bulldog_Drummond, 27 July 2019 - 09:33 PM.


Ogroid #14 Posted 27 July 2019 - 09:42 PM

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The game is a forkin nightmare compared to 5 years ago whatever, spend no money, play how u like fork the tryhards in this dungeon. Game is forked anyhow, gg wg... Spend money on wot 2019? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

 

 

no



7thSyndicate #15 Posted 27 July 2019 - 09:53 PM

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View PostBulldog_Drummond, on 27 July 2019 - 07:18 PM, said:

  • Bulldog_Drummond (20:05:55) 11 shots 3 pens. T25 is no sniper

 

T25 is a support tank, a hulldown ridge sniper, has no armor. If you coudnt carry the game yourself playing t6 why do you think he should or could?

 


Edited by 7thSyndicate, 27 July 2019 - 09:55 PM.


Bulldog_Drummond #16 Posted 27 July 2019 - 10:01 PM

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View Post7thSyndicate, on 27 July 2019 - 08:53 PM, said:

 

T25 is a support tank, a hulldown ridge sniper, has no armor. If you coudnt carry the game yourself playing t6 why do you think he should or could?

 

 

No one was asking for a carry, not sure where you got that idea from, just a bit of activity.  Personally I'd have thought that the inaccurate T25 gun was a bit rubbish at sniping, but who knows. And on that map in Assault game mode it wasn't going to snipe anything anyway from base as all targets were out of range.



malachi6 #17 Posted 27 July 2019 - 10:38 PM

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You assert he was a waste of space before finding out why he did what he did.  This is a fallacy.  Just because you cannot understand a person's reasons (or in your case even know.) does not make you correct.  Sure, the guy could have played differently.  He did not and even gave you the reasoning behind his behaviour.  

 

I would have not started with the insult and simply asked why he did what he did.  Then gone on to explain my reasons for thinking what he did was wrong.  Once I have modified my opinions to address his assertions.  You were clearly prepared to have an intelligent conversation.  Best not to start off on the wrong footing with incorrect thinking.



Nishi_Kinuyo #18 Posted 27 July 2019 - 10:41 PM

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View Post7thSyndicate, on 27 July 2019 - 09:53 PM, said:

 

T25 is a support tank, a hulldown ridge sniper, has no armor. If you coudnt carry the game yourself playing t6 why do you think he should or could?

 

Riiiight.

So that is why I, in a Chi-Nu, Turán or similar tank, am playing more aggressively with better results because of it.

Just yesterday I managed this:

Spoiler

While today I managed this:

http://wotreplays.eu...o-type_4_chi-to

 

So if a slow paper MT can manage that, then surely a Pz T25 could do better than sniping from the hill in Karelia.



7thSyndicate #19 Posted 27 July 2019 - 10:49 PM

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View PostNishi_Kinuyo, on 27 July 2019 - 09:41 PM, said:

Riiiight.

So that is why I, in a Chi-Nu, Turán or similar tank, am playing more aggressively with better results because of it.

Just yesterday I managed this:

Spoiler

While today I managed this:

http://wotreplays.eu...o-type_4_chi-to

 

So if a slow paper MT can manage that, then surely a Pz T25 could do better than sniping from the hill in Karelia.

 

Wow you did carry a game playing with a t5 tenk doing 1.7k damage?? what a god!

So what´s your point again? going to the frontline with a t5 paper tank killing bad players might work, until you face a decent player and go back to garage.



onderschepper #20 Posted 27 July 2019 - 11:00 PM

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Echoing the point made by Nishi, the T-25 has more armour than my m/42-57 which is a Tier VI MT, but when the need arises (aka no one else volunteers their services) I can scout and dodge, duck, dip, dive & dodge between points of cover.

 

T-25 - Hull: 50/45/35 & Turret: 60/60/35 (with a top speed of 60km/h!!!)

 

m/42-57 - Hull: 55/30/20 & Turret: 40/20/20 (with a top speed of 45km/h)

 

A T-25 in a game with Tier VI is comparably forgiving to a m/42-57 in a game with Tier VII. :)






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