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T-34-85M vs Type 58


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OlympusPk #1 Posted 29 July 2019 - 06:23 PM

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I recently revisited the Type 58 just to improve my statistics on this vehicle and get some benefits from the current Top of the Tree missions. In my disappointment, I found out that Type 58 is not like I remembered it. It seems that it has been nerfed but that was my feeling and I am not sure if it was nerfed or 2-3 years, when I played with it, was the same. Being more experienced player now I do compare the Type 58 with the similar T-34-85M and I am wondering why is it so unbalanced. Lets compare some features with 100% crew and no equipment:

 

                                              Type 58                T-34-85M

Gun depression                       -5/22                      -7/25

Gun pen base                            128 !!!!                  144

Damage                                     160                       180

Gun dispersion  100m                0.36                      0.35 

DPM                                           2003                     2166

 

The only advantage the Type  58 has, is its better gun traverse and 30 Hp more than T-34-85..

And my question to WG is: WHY you Give Worse Specifics to a Clone Tank.

Please WG make gameplay more enjoyable and apply balanced characteristics to similar tanks. Prove that there is no russian bias in the game. There is no need to exist any kind of bias in the game.



Balc0ra #2 Posted 29 July 2019 - 06:32 PM

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View PostOlympusPk, on 29 July 2019 - 06:23 PM, said:

 WHY you Give Worse Specifics to a Clone Tank.

 

Same reason why the T-34-85M is better than even the T-34-85. Because reasons.

 

Even so, it's a Chinese copy cat. So they had the hull to use, not the same guns.



Nishi_Kinuyo #3 Posted 29 July 2019 - 06:40 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 29 July 2019 - 06:32 PM, said:

 

Same reason why the T-34-85M is better than even the T-34-85. Because reasons.

 

Even so, it's a Chinese copy cat. So they had the hull to use, not the same guns.

The Chinese one uses the gun it had historically.

And may I remind you, that the good 85mm on the rashan T-34-85 is the early 85mm while the bad 85mm is the late model 85mm?



Balc0ra #4 Posted 29 July 2019 - 06:43 PM

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View PostNishi_Kinuyo, on 29 July 2019 - 06:40 PM, said:

 And may I remind you, that the good 85mm on the rashan T-34-85 is the early 85mm while the bad 85mm is the late model 85mm?

 

Early or late don't matter. Pen is more on the ammo then the gun. As we had the same discussion about the short 88 test that had more then 138 pen.



OlympusPk #5 Posted 29 July 2019 - 07:09 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 29 July 2019 - 07:32 PM, said:

 

Same reason why the T-34-85M is better than even the T-34-85. Because reasons.

 

Even so, it's a Chinese copy cat. So they had the hull to use, not the same guns.

Ok I agree, but T-34-85M was supposed to be better than T-34-85, but main features like gun depression, dispersion and pen are the same. Type 58 cannot play neither as a sniper nor as a bully because it lacks pen and armor. Almost all tier 6 medium tanks are far more better than it and each one has a unique characteristic. Where a Type 58 can excel? Nowhere! And don't forger T-34-85 and type 58 are using 85 mm guns. 128 pen is characteristic of 76 mm guns like the US medium line have. Of course all what we are talking here, are parts of game and not real stuff. And for the shake of the game these specifics should be balanced.



Gkirmathal #6 Posted 29 July 2019 - 07:31 PM

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OP the Chinese tech tree medium line, excluding the tier 9 and 10, has not been touched in literal ages. And it does not look like it is going to be addressed any time soon as WG seem to only be focussing on tier 8-10 content. So perhaps the 34-2 will get some love in a decade.

 

As for the Type 58, the only thing holding it back is the pen on it's top gun ammunition. Changing that to 145 pen (also adjusting the apcr accordingly) while keeping the 160 alpha, will make in unique amongst the 34-85 clones. This will further help and give the tier 7 a choice of either DPM or high alpha gun.

As for the US meds with 76mm, same should apply on the top gun IMHO.



Tigerfish_Torpedo #7 Posted 29 July 2019 - 07:31 PM

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Whilst we're at it, let's compare fillet steak, served with onion rings and thick steak cut chips against a tin of tripe flavoured dog food.



OlympusPk #8 Posted 29 July 2019 - 07:47 PM

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View PostGkirmathal, on 29 July 2019 - 08:31 PM, said:

OP the Chinese tech tree medium line, excluding the tier 9 and 10, has not been touched in literal ages. And it does not look like it is going to be addressed any time soon as WG seem to only be focussing on tier 8-10 content. So perhaps the 34-2 will get some love in a decade.

T-34-2, another joke. 181 pen, 250 dmg, 2,8 aim.



If_I_Die_You_Die_Too #9 Posted 29 July 2019 - 10:56 PM

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Rasha Tonks good tonks

Schepel #10 Posted 30 July 2019 - 02:18 AM

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View PostOlympusPk, on 29 July 2019 - 06:23 PM, said:

I recently revisited the Type 58 just to improve my statistics on this vehicle and get some benefits from the current Top of the Tree missions. In my disappointment, I found out that Type 58 is not like I remembered it. It seems that it has been nerfed but that was my feeling and I am not sure if it was nerfed or 2-3 years, when I played with it, was the same. Being more experienced player now I do compare the Type 58 with the similar T-34-85M and I am wondering why is it so unbalanced. Lets compare some features with 100% crew and no equipment:

 

                                              Type 58                T-34-85M

Gun depression                       -5/22                      -7/25

Gun pen base                            128 !!!!                  144

Damage                                     160                       180

Gun dispersion  100m                0.36                      0.35 

DPM                                           2003                     2166

 

The only advantage the Type  58 has, is its better gun traverse and 30 Hp more than T-34-85..

And my question to WG is: WHY you Give Worse Specifics to a Clone Tank.

Please WG make gameplay more enjoyable and apply balanced characteristics to similar tanks. Prove that there is no russian bias in the game. There is no need to exist any kind of bias in the game.

 

Congratulations, you discovered power creep.

 

Chinese tanks are especially vulnerable to it. I expect this may be caused by the fact WG has nothing to do with the Chinese market since a seperate, Chinese, company runs WOT over there. Whatever the reason, most Chinese tanks are woefully power crept. Of course, the premium T8 TD is a different story, but the regular tech tree has quietly been relegated to the rear of the line and then left behind.



Hopeinen #11 Posted 30 July 2019 - 04:51 AM

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Obviously the T-34-85M is better then T-34-85 or Type 58 because people pay real money for it.:coin:

LordMuffin #12 Posted 30 July 2019 - 05:13 AM

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Of course T-34-85M is better.
It is a premium tank, and premium tanks are supposed to be better then regular tech tree tanks.
No p2w by the way.

TankkiPoju #13 Posted 30 July 2019 - 06:22 AM

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Surely you aren't suggesting Chinese tanks should be as good as Russian premium tanks? That's just crazy talk.

Cobra6 #14 Posted 30 July 2019 - 07:29 AM

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Type T-34 is also worse then the T-34

The T8 medium is worse then the T8 light.

The whole Chinese medium line is pretty much garbage apart from the T-34-1 which is bearable and has a nice gimmick (strong turret and low silhouette).

 

Cobra 6



PowJay #15 Posted 30 July 2019 - 08:46 AM

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View PostCobra6, on 30 July 2019 - 06:29 AM, said:

Type T-34 is also worse then the T-34

The T8 medium is worse then the T8 light.

The whole Chinese medium line is pretty much garbage apart from the T-34-1 which is bearable and has a nice gimmick (strong turret and low silhouette).

 

Cobra 6

I never will understand this. I have owned the T-34 twice, as a newbie and as a more experienced player, for the A line.

 

and then there is this

 

 

I also have kept the Type 58. The only reason was that it sustained a positive win rate. Some days I swear it's going to hit 50% and I will sell it and move on, but it keeps winning- just about- and so I consider it something of a crew trainer for whichever vehicle I buy next. Having said that: I have come to the brick wall that is the tier VIII TD and I don't think I will be keeping it or moving on, so there is another crew.

 

This space is deliberately blank


 


Edited by PowJay, 30 July 2019 - 08:57 AM.


vasilinhorulezz #16 Posted 30 July 2019 - 05:42 PM

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View PostOlympusPk, on 29 July 2019 - 06:23 PM, said:

I recently revisited the Type 58 just to improve my statistics on this vehicle and get some benefits from the current Top of the Tree missions. In my disappointment, I found out that Type 58 is not like I remembered it. It seems that it has been nerfed but that was my feeling and I am not sure if it was nerfed or 2-3 years, when I played with it, was the same. Being more experienced player now I do compare the Type 58 with the similar T-34-85M and I am wondering why is it so unbalanced. Lets compare some features with 100% crew and no equipment:

 

                                              Type 58                T-34-85M

Gun depression                       -5/22                      -7/25

Gun pen base                            128 !!!!                  144

Damage                                     160                       180

Gun dispersion  100m                0.36                      0.35 

DPM                                           2003                     2166

 

The only advantage the Type  58 has, is its better gun traverse and 30 Hp more than T-34-85..

And my question to WG is: WHY you Give Worse Specifics to a Clone Tank.

Please WG make gameplay more enjoyable and apply balanced characteristics to similar tanks. Prove that there is no russian bias in the game. There is no need to exist any kind of bias in the game.


You chose to play Chinese mediums man, you have to suffer.



snowlywhite #17 Posted 30 July 2019 - 10:23 PM

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it's easy: China = tier 9-10 heavies, tier 7-8 lights. That's it.

 

the whole medium line is junk, the td line is... in a category of it's own :P



PowJay #18 Posted 30 July 2019 - 11:15 PM

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View Postsnowlywhite, on 30 July 2019 - 09:23 PM, said:

it's easy: China = tier 9-10 heavies, tier 7-8 lights. That's it.

 

the whole medium line is junk, the td line is... in a category of it's own :P

And what is your definition of that category?

 

 

For the tier IV, that is the highest average damage of all of my tier IV vehicles ever and more than many of my tier Vs, (including my much-loved StuG IIIG)

 

The tier V you will notice has less damage than the tier IV, but that figure puts it at 8th overall for all of my tier V vehicles ever played, excluding the Pz 25 T with only five battles and the Excelsior with one. I had an amazing first battle in the Pz 25T that really drove my stats up.

 

The tier VI is 4th for damage of all of my tier VI, excluding one battle in the Excalibur.

 

The tier VII is 3rd overall of every single tier VII that I have ever played, coming in behind only the T29 and the Jagdpanther.

 

The tier VIII is a totally different, hateful, thing that I will neither keep, nor move on from. I might finally use the crew to buy another Chinese tank as I only have two.



P33K #19 Posted 31 July 2019 - 01:11 AM

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Type 58 ain't that bad despite the lesser pen and depression. It has better rof and dpm than T-34-85, and also better ground resistances, view range, health, etc.

It beats the 85m as well for example in mobility and rof among some other things.

I found it better than one could expect, granted it looked pretty meh beforehand.

Liked chinese tiers 4-5 as well, 7 was ok but could have used a better crew.



snowlywhite #20 Posted 31 July 2019 - 02:49 AM

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View PostPowJay, on 30 July 2019 - 11:15 PM, said:

And what is your definition of that category?

 

 

For the tier IV, that is the highest average damage of all of my tier IV vehicles ever and more than many of my tier Vs, (including my much-loved StuG IIIG)

 

The tier V you will notice has less damage than the tier IV, but that figure puts it at 8th overall for all of my tier V vehicles ever played, excluding the Pz 25 T with only five battles and the Excelsior with one. I had an amazing first battle in the Pz 25T that really drove my stats up.

 

The tier VI is 4th for damage of all of my tier VI, excluding one battle in the Excalibur.

 

The tier VII is 3rd overall of every single tier VII that I have ever played, coming in behind only the T29 and the Jagdpanther.

 

The tier VIII is a totally different, hateful, thing that I will neither keep, nor move on from. I might finally use the crew to buy another Chinese tank as I only have two.

 

was talking about tier 8-10. Anyway, I free xp to tier 5 on all lines.

 

the tier 6 is good, the premium is good. Imho that's china td line over tier 5. No clue what's in tier 1-4 as I don't really play those.






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