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Tier 8 Premium Heavy German Gamescom 2019

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Long_Range_Sniper #101 Posted 23 August 2019 - 05:02 PM

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View PostInnapropriate_Username, on 23 August 2019 - 02:33 PM, said:

Aaah you are right, Fiat and Ferrari are the same, because invalid grandma in city obeys speed limits.

...and

You know when designing a new car, (or a plane)... manufacturer takes worst possible drivers to test it in design stage, right?

All those test drivers / pilots, they are the worst, because that is the only way to design "A car for all!"

 

Because the roads are just full of Ferrari's aren't they? How do you find playing the Chieftain or 907? Tech tree tanks designed for the whole playerbase to access simply by playing enough games?

 

Getting all worked up over gun mantlets, weakspots, buffs and nerfs is pretty much irrelevant. It's the holistic performance of a tank set against the whole system that's relevant.

 

In that regard you claimed the objective statistics that show macro level performance are fantasy. When in fact they show exactly how a tank performs. 



Innapropriate_Username #102 Posted 27 August 2019 - 10:17 PM

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View PostLong_Range_Sniper, on 23 August 2019 - 05:02 PM, said:

Because the roads are just full of Ferrari's aren't they?

 

Waaait, so Fiat DOES use bad test-drivers for testing purposes?

 

View PostLong_Range_Sniper, on 23 August 2019 - 05:02 PM, said:

 How do you find playing the Chieftain or 907? Tech tree tanks designed for the whole playerbase to access simply by playing enough games?

 

907 is starting to show...  "some age" but clearly nobody is choosing them over Flipwagen, same as nobody is choosing Centurion over Tiger2 because they have "same winrates"... And you don't get Chieftain/907 "simply by playing enough games" - you get them from a different game mode, the one that does not go into your "macro level performance"/winrates statistics.

 

View PostLong_Range_Sniper, on 23 August 2019 - 05:02 PM, said:

Getting all worked up over gun mantlets, weakspots, buffs and nerfs is pretty much irrelevant. It's the holistic performance of a tank set against the whole system that's relevant.

In that regard you claimed the objective statistics that show macro level performance are fantasy. When in fact they show exactly how a tank performs. 

 

They show how the system performs, and that includes drivers/players, maps, RNG, and every other single factor that has nothing to do with tank performance.

When somebody drowns in faster tank, it does not mean it is worse tank than VK100/Maus because they are too slow to flip the Maus - it is a user error.

 

In the system so big, difference of changing one armor plate will not reflect in global WR more than a margin of error; -but it will make a power-creep difference in situations when 2 tanks are balanced against each other, in case of Tiger2 vs Centurion it seams they have similar WR but it is more than clear that one is useless Garbage, while other is, if not one of the best tanks in Tier at least much MUCH better than Tiger2.

Add enough "magic armor parts" on certain tanks spread around such large system and "powercreep" will not blow up on winrate charts like a nuke - but it will be felt in the game.

It's like you want to put whole game balance up to RNG lottery from "Macro level performance" - while ignoring things like 'Tank armor details'... or "Different Game Modes".

Whole idea of "Win rate balance" is a thing only in Randoms, and it reflects more of everything from that game mode than how certain tanks are balanced against each other.



NoobySkooby #103 Posted 27 August 2019 - 11:03 PM

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View PostInnapropriate_Username, on 27 August 2019 - 10:17 PM, said:

 

Waaait, so Fiat DOES use bad test-drivers for testing purposes?

 

 

907 is starting to show...  "some age" but clearly nobody is choosing them over Flipwagen, same as nobody is choosing Centurion over Tiger2 because they have "same winrates"... And you don't get Chieftain/907 "simply by playing enough games" - you get them from a different game mode, the one that does not go into your "macro level performance"/winrates statistics.

 

 

They show how the system performs, and that includes drivers/players, maps, RNG, and every other single factor that has nothing to do with tank performance.

When somebody drowns in faster tank, it does not mean it is worse tank than VK100/Maus because they are too slow to flip the Maus - it is a user error.

 

In the system so big, difference of changing one armor plate will not reflect in global WR more than a margin of error; -but it will make a power-creep difference in situations when 2 tanks are balanced against each other, in case of Tiger2 vs Centurion it seams they have similar WR but it is more than clear that one is useless Garbage, while other is, if not one of the best tanks in Tier at least much MUCH better than Tiger2.

Add enough "magic armor parts" on certain tanks spread around such large system and "powercreep" will not blow up on winrate charts like a nuke - but it will be felt in the game.

It's like you want to put whole game balance up to RNG lottery from "Macro level performance" - while ignoring things like 'Tank armor details'... or "Different Game Modes".

Whole idea of "Win rate balance" is a thing only in Randoms, and it reflects more of everything from that game mode than how certain tanks are balanced against each other.

Had a game the other night where I had a good game in my Tiger 2, The E 75 however just does not work for me neither sadly does the VK but that is not down to the tank, I have seen the replays where a VK can carry.



Laatikkomafia #104 Posted 28 August 2019 - 07:34 AM

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I wonder how many actually fell for this trap?

Long_Range_Sniper #105 Posted 28 August 2019 - 07:56 AM

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View PostInnapropriate_Username, on 27 August 2019 - 09:17 PM, said:

.And you don't get Chieftain/907 "simply by playing enough games"

 

That point went over your head didn't it. i.e. Not everyone can own a Ferrari

 

View PostInnapropriate_Username, on 27 August 2019 - 09:17 PM, said:

They show how the system performs, and that includes drivers/players, maps, RNG, and every other single factor that has nothing to do with tank performance.

.

I can see that you literally don't understand how wincurves present data. They show how the TANK performs in the SYSTEM.

 

They don't show how the SYSTEM performs.

 

They are a single correlation between the tank winrate for that player and player winrate for that player.

 

It is a very, very simple concept. If a player with 45% winrate overall in the system, performs at 45% in a particular tank then the tank is "balanced" to that player. The same if a 60% player performs to 60% in that tank. It shows that all of the myriad of variables have been balanced so well in the system that a player receives no bonus or penalty for playing that tank and their true performance can shine through.

 

If a 45% player performs to 48% and a 55% player performs to 58% in a tank, then the tank is not balanced.

 

You can get yourself tied in knots all day long wondering why a tank performs the way it performs when looking at armour, or trying to argue a tank is good or bad because of how you perceive the tank or the system.

 

But the objective truth about whether a tank is balanced or not set against the system it plays in is the tank wincurve.



Innapropriate_Username #106 Posted 28 August 2019 - 03:14 PM

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View PostLong_Range_Sniper, on 28 August 2019 - 07:56 AM, said:

That point went over your head didn't it. i.e. Not everyone can own a Ferrari

 

So... now Ferrari uses bad test drivers?

That point had nothing to do with your comment  "enough cars for most people aren't designed for how he can make it work."

I was not talking about "designing a tank for daki", but that nobody is using bad drivers to test performance of a car. Crash dolls for survival maybe...

Even if you want to measure some other fantasy feature you wound never use unreliable test drivers - and you would not use unreliable track.

 

View PostLong_Range_Sniper, on 28 August 2019 - 07:56 AM, said:

You can get yourself tied in knots all day long wondering why a tank performs the way it performs when looking at armour, or trying to argue a tank is good or bad because of how you perceive the tank or the system.

But the objective truth about whether a tank is balanced or not set against the system it plays in is the tank wincurve.

 

How come wincurves ignore every other game mode other than randoms?

Is it maybe because 15v15 specific game mode has some different or missing parameters compared with other game modes same tanks play in?

 

Because if it does, your "only wincurves are objective" goes to toilet by default for the purpose of measuring general tank performance.

Game parameters are different, "win" objectives are different... even in default "Randoms" winning the game does not mean completing the mission or some other specific task.

And then we have whole "hidden fine tuning" parameters from matchmaker to god knows what not...

 

And you want to discard all of that and say; Yep! Tiger2 and Centurion1 are equally balanced tanks! They have similar win curves! Do you really think those 2 tanks are balanced???

On Cent1 add just few mm to UFP, remove stock play data (5/1) and you basically get low DPM Caernarvon, and Caern. is a tank with wincurves up there with the Defender... balanced right?



tajj7 #107 Posted 28 August 2019 - 03:30 PM

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View PostInnapropriate_Username, on 28 August 2019 - 02:14 PM, said:

 

So... now Ferrari uses bad test drivers?

That point had nothing to do with your comment  "enough cars for most people aren't designed for how he can make it work."

I was not talking about "designing a tank for daki", but that nobody is using bad drivers to test performance of a car. Crash dolls for survival maybe...

Even if you want to measure some other fantasy feature you wound never use unreliable test drivers - and you would not use unreliable track.

 

 

How come wincurves ignore every other game mode other than randoms?

Is it maybe because 15v15 specific game mode has some different or missing parameters compared with other game modes same tanks play in?

 

Because if it does, your "only wincurves are objective" goes to toilet by default for the purpose of measuring general tank performance.

Game parameters are different, "win" objectives are different... even in default "Randoms" winning the game does not mean completing the mission or some other specific task.

And then we have whole "hidden fine tuning" parameters from matchmaker to god knows what not...

 

And you want to discard all of that and say; Yep! Tiger2 and Centurion1 are equally balanced tanks! They have similar win curves! Do you really think those 2 tanks are balanced???

On Cent1 add just few mm to UFP, remove stock play data (5/1) and you basically get low DPM Caernarvon, and Caern. is a tank with wincurves up there with the Defender... balanced right?

 

You do like to write some utter nonsense. 

 

Why would the WR curves take into account other game modes when those other game modes are not about personal performance? 

 

Frontlines has no WR relevance because literally the game mode is about grinding prestige and lots of people know this so don't play to win. 

 

Team based modes are also not about personal win rates either, they are about team/clan performance, so someone could consistently lose even in good tanks because their tactics and FC is bad. 

 

So other modes are irrelevant, especially as randoms IS World of tanks, everything revolves around randoms, tanks are balanced to randoms, its where most people play, where most tanks are played, where most of the games are played. 

 

Hence why the WR curves show, adjusted for skill, how well the tanks perform in randoms. 

 

All the rest you talk about is irrelevant. 

 

Whatever holes in mantlets or whatever characteristic is different DOES NOT MATTER, it is about how the tank performs for various skill levels in WOTs main game mode, that includes the matchmaker, the maps, premium ammo, other tanks it faces etc. etc. all of that is encompassed in that statistic. 

 

Thus it is a clear objective FACT that the Tiger 2 and the Centurion 1 perform similarly in the current random meta, and thus your claims about them are wrong. 

 

If you weren't so far up the German bias path you might work why this is the case when the Tiger 2 has things like an alpha advantage, penetration advantages (on prem round), hp advantages, hull armour advantages, gun handling advantages etc. that will in other scenarios make up for the Tiger 2's disadvantages in other areas (i.e turret armour and mobility).

 

The problem you have with all your whines is you look and compare tanks in completely artificial, narrow and perfect scenarios that don't actually represent what actually happens in WOT games.  Thus you do things like compare turret armour like every engagement in WOTs is perfect 1v1 hull down engagements, when it it isn't. 

 

Tanks are not 1-2 specific attributes, they are a collection of attributes that mean they perform well, badly or averagely in the different scenarios the game throws at them.

 

Yeh sure the Cent 1 is stronger hull down position than a Tiger 2, so what? It's less strong sidescraping in a city environment trading, its less strong being in the open trying to bully tier 6s, its less strong at sniping tier 10s from long range with APCR etc. etc. 

 

Thus overall where is loses in some areas, it makes up in others, and because the game is a not perfect set of 1v1 battles you seem to think it is, the two tanks end up performing similarly. 



Long_Range_Sniper #108 Posted 28 August 2019 - 03:59 PM

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View PostInnapropriate_Username, on 28 August 2019 - 02:14 PM, said:

So... now Ferrari uses bad test drivers?

That point had nothing to do with your comment  "enough cars for most people aren't designed for how he can make it work."

I was not talking about "designing a tank for daki", but that nobody is using bad drivers to test performance of a car. Crash dolls for survival maybe...

Even if you want to measure some other fantasy feature you wound never use unreliable test drivers - and you would not use unreliable track.

 

When you mix your analogies as often as you do I can see why you get confused.

 

Next time WG advertise for a tank designer, why don't you apply and then tell them that designing a tank for Daki's level of skill is all they need to do to sell them to the playerbase.

 

I'm sure you'll get the job.

 

View PostInnapropriate_Username, on 28 August 2019 - 02:14 PM, said:

How come wincurves ignore every other game mode other than randoms?

 

Ask WG to change the API, so websites can extract other data. But as it's the mode played by the vast majority of players and gives the greatest data sample I don't know why you'd want to know?

 

View PostInnapropriate_Username, on 28 August 2019 - 02:14 PM, said:

Is it maybe because 15v15 specific game mode has some different or missing parameters compared with other game modes same tanks play in?

 

Do you mean the pixie that controls the matchmaker to make certain tanks from certain nations perform better than others? That sort of missing parameter?

 

Or is it the fact that you just can't get your head around a data sample across the entire playerbase, covering all the different map and player combinations that shows a tank is balanced or unbalanced isn't objective enough for you?

 

Would you prefer to ask the pixie?



Innapropriate_Username #109 Posted 28 August 2019 - 05:21 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 28 August 2019 - 03:30 PM, said:

Why would the WR curves take into account other game modes when those other game modes are not about personal performance? 

 

 

You do understand, that in some game modes players use some tanks almost exclusively?

 

Because they are choosing tank performance - and that is different from win performance in randoms.

View Posttajj7, on 28 August 2019 - 03:30 PM, said:

Thus it is a clear objective FACT that the Tiger 2 and the Centurion 1 perform similarly

 

 

One is Garbage, other is very good tank - players who choose tank performance choose Centurion1 over Tiger2.

 

 

View Posttajj7, on 28 August 2019 - 03:30 PM, said:

...and thus your claims about them are wrong.....If you weren't so far up the German bias path...

 

 

Yeah it is clear who is talking gibberish, Grab a Tiger2, take it out for a spin... I hear it has armor so good it just DESTROYS Centurions like they are Panthers :playing:

 

 

View Posttajj7, on 28 August 2019 - 03:30 PM, said:

Frontlines has no WR relevance because literally the game mode is about grinding prestige and lots of people know this so don't play to win. 

 

 

Frontlines was made because players wanted game mode more "relaxing" than randoms,...  the same players who played in similar way for years in randoms...

 

But same tanks do play in Frontlines,... same Tanks, different game mode.

 

So EVEN IF tanks like Centurion1/Tiger2 are "Balanced for Randoms" - they are not balanced for Frontlines.

 

If they are not balanced in both - than the "winrate balance" you talk about DOES NOT REFLECT TANK PERFORMANCE POTENTIAL!

 

 

View Posttajj7, on 28 August 2019 - 03:30 PM, said:

Hence why the WR curves show, adjusted for skill, how well the tanks perform in randoms. 

 

 

That has too much random factors in it to realistically represent tank performance potential.

 

 

And says close to nothing about tank performance in other game modes.

 

 

So how do you measure specific tank performance again?

 


 

View Posttajj7, on 28 August 2019 - 03:30 PM, said:

Tiger 2 has things like an alpha advantage....

Pfffffff....   :D

 

See, this is why you will never get the bigger picture :popcorn:

 

 

If you will truly pick Tiger2 to go in battle OVER Centurion1...  with intention to WIN,...  you are either stupid or a Liar.

 

 

Come on.... tell me how you pick Tiger2 as your Go-To tank over Centurion1, please tell me!

 

 

 

View Posttajj7, on 28 August 2019 - 03:30 PM, said:

Yeh sure the Cent 1 is stronger hull down position than a Tiger 2, so what? It's less strong sidescraping in a city environment trading, its less strong being in the open trying to bully tier 6s, its less strong at sniping tier 10s from long range with APCR etc. etc. 

 

Centurion can "run away" from city, Tiger2 is too slow to get to city.

 

Best thing Tiger2 can do is getting spawned on himmelsdorf  - and even on that map it will suck over Centurion1 because if you want to shoot - you MUST expose weakest part of your tank.


Only factors that make Tiger2 and Centurion1 the "same" are random SPG fire and other RNG factors you have little control over...

 

So that is good tank balance? If you die same number of times from Arty?

 

...

 

But how much damage do you need to 1,2,3 mark Centurion1 vs Tiger2?

 

 

How much damage per game do they make, how much they bounce?

 

That all is irrelevant because it is canceled out by random RNG, and that is perfect balance for you. :great:

 

 

View PostLong_Range_Sniper, on 28 August 2019 - 03:59 PM, said:

Ask WG to change the API, so websites can extract other data. But as it's the mode played by the vast majority of players and gives the greatest data sample I don't know why you'd want to know?

 

 

So you understand you do not have the data,...

 

If you dont care fine, but be aware that your win-rates divination tarot gives out as much random mess as tank performance data.

 

 

View PostLong_Range_Sniper, on 28 August 2019 - 03:59 PM, said:

When you mix your analogies as often as you do I can see why you get confused.

Next time WG advertise for a tank designer, why don't you apply and then tell them that designing a tank for Daki's level of skill is all they need to do to sell them to the playerbase.

 

 

No..  I did not mix anything,.. and they are only your analogies.

 

And you are twisting my words - AGAIN.

 

From the start I stated that top players (like Skill who did not know how thick Tiger2 turret is) are somebody who can demonstrate performance of a tank, even tho they do not know every smallest detail in game.

 

YOU had stupid idea to "design a tank for Daki"  -> http://forum.worldof...9#entry17170049

 

And YOU dragged cars into this mess; http://forum.worldof...5#entry17170285

 



Long_Range_Sniper #110 Posted 28 August 2019 - 05:43 PM

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View PostInnapropriate_Username, on 28 August 2019 - 04:21 PM, said:

So you understand you do not have the data,...

 

If you dont care fine, but be aware that your win-rates divination tarot gives out as much random mess as tank performance data.

 

I suppose a player who wants to know the statistical performance of a tank that is ONLY played in CW or FL will feel really upset that that data isn't included in the wincurve information.

 

Maybe the sort of player who can't deal with objective facts and is looking for literally any excuse to rubbish the information that shows how a tank performs in the vast majority of game situations.

 

View PostInnapropriate_Username, on 28 August 2019 - 04:21 PM, said:

From the start I stated that top players (like Skill who did not know how thick Tiger2 turret is) are somebody who can demonstrate performance of a tank, even tho they do not know every smallest detail in game.

 

I suppose if you understood objective tank performance data you'd have worked out that Skill's performance is included in the wincurve data.

 

View PostInnapropriate_Username, on 28 August 2019 - 04:21 PM, said:

If you will truly pick Tiger2 to go in battle OVER Centurion1...  with intention to WIN,...  you are either stupid or a Liar.

 

You really don't understand the concepts of subjective and objective choices do you?

 

You can throw a tanrtum all day long about someone not liking the tanks you like, but it doesn't change the objective performance data about how each tank performs and as a consequence how balanced they are within the game system.



Oldewolfe #111 Posted 29 August 2019 - 07:54 AM

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52% WR in my Tiger II vs 44% WR in my Cent MkI....    Yah, I'll pick the Tiger, any day...      190 Games in the MkI and 188 in the Tiger II.....

 

But, I haven't played the Cent since the Buff outside of the P.Vic and 5/1 which are Totally different Tanks in the end despite the Similarities....       P.Vic uses APCR as a Standard Ammo with Essentially the same Stat's as the 20lb'r, but all the Flaws of APCR....      And the 5/1 has that extra Upper Plate Armor making it a Baby Heavy more than a Medium....       Even the 4202 isn't the Same Tank with a Lower Profile, Steeper Angles, and better Mobility.....       

 

These are the only reason I had Zero Issues selling the MkI back to WG when I got the 7/1.....         Gun on the Tiger II is also less Fickle than the 20lb Guns as well, making it far easier to pull off those Miracle Shots....

 

As much as I like the Brit's, I'd rather have the German in this case.....



tajj7 #112 Posted 29 August 2019 - 08:49 AM

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View PostInnapropriate_Username, on 28 August 2019 - 04:21 PM, said:

 

 

You do understand, that in some game modes players use some tanks almost exclusively?

 

Because they are choosing tank performance - and that is different from win performance in randoms.

 

 

One is Garbage, other is very good tank - players who choose tank performance choose Centurion1 over Tiger2.

 

 

 

 

Yeah it is clear who is talking gibberish, Grab a Tiger2, take it out for a spin... I hear it has armor so good it just DESTROYS Centurions like they are Panthers :playing:

 

 

 

 

Frontlines was made because players wanted game mode more "relaxing" than randoms,...  the same players who played in similar way for years in randoms...

 

But same tanks do play in Frontlines,... same Tanks, different game mode.

 

So EVEN IF tanks like Centurion1/Tiger2 are "Balanced for Randoms" - they are not balanced for Frontlines.

 

If they are not balanced in both - than the "winrate balance" you talk about DOES NOT REFLECT TANK PERFORMANCE POTENTIAL!

 

 

 

 

That has too much random factors in it to realistically represent tank performance potential.

 

 

And says close to nothing about tank performance in other game modes.

 

 

So how do you measure specific tank performance again?

 


 

Pfffffff....   :D

 

See, this is why you will never get the bigger picture :popcorn:

 

 

If you will truly pick Tiger2 to go in battle OVER Centurion1...  with intention to WIN,...  you are either stupid or a Liar.

 

 

Come on.... tell me how you pick Tiger2 as your Go-To tank over Centurion1, please tell me!

 

 

 

 

Centurion can "run away" from city, Tiger2 is too slow to get to city.

 

Best thing Tiger2 can do is getting spawned on himmelsdorf  - and even on that map it will suck over Centurion1 because if you want to shoot - you MUST expose weakest part of your tank.


Only factors that make Tiger2 and Centurion1 the "same" are random SPG fire and other RNG factors you have little control over...

 

So that is good tank balance? If you die same number of times from Arty?

 

...

 

But how much damage do you need to 1,2,3 mark Centurion1 vs Tiger2?

 

 

How much damage per game do they make, how much they bounce?

 

That all is irrelevant because it is canceled out by random RNG, and that is perfect balance for you. :great:

 

 

 

 

So you understand you do not have the data,...

 

If you dont care fine, but be aware that your win-rates divination tarot gives out as much random mess as tank performance data.

 

 

 

 

No..  I did not mix anything,.. and they are only your analogies.

 

And you are twisting my words - AGAIN.

 

From the start I stated that top players (like Skill who did not know how thick Tiger2 turret is) are somebody who can demonstrate performance of a tank, even tho they do not know every smallest detail in game.

 

YOU had stupid idea to "design a tank for Daki"  -> http://forum.worldof...9#entry17170049

 

And YOU dragged cars into this mess; http://forum.worldof...5#entry17170285

 

 

:facepalm:

 

Your fundamental lack of understanding or refusal to accept core facts undermines anything you say.

 

It is summed up in this statement -

 

Block Quote

 Because they are choosing tank performance - and that is different from win performance in randoms.

 

Tank performance IS reflected in win performance in randoms FFS, they are the SAME thing. How a tank performs in game, for every skill level, is shown by it's WR curve, does it make a player perform above, below or at his skill level and by how much, that is tank performance. 

 

What you are talking about is subjective choice, which is not the same as objective performance, which LRS has already explained to you and it is baffling you don't understand this. 

 

WR curves are objective statistics that show the TRUE performance of a vehicle in randoms, the main and most played game mode in the game. 

 

Subjective choice is players choosing tanks based on their own personal subjective view of the tank, based on their preferences, biases, playstyle etc. YOU don't think the Tiger 2 is any good because you have a bias that makes you undervalue German tanks in particular and their strengths. That is YOUR choice, but it is irrelevant when it comes to the ACTUAL performance of the tank, you can think the Tiger 2 is terrible all you like, but that is merely your opinion and it is your subjective opinion.

 

The reality is though that the tank is performing similarly to Centurion 1, that is a cold hard fact that you simply cannot handle.

 

I CHOOSE not to play the Maus because it's too slow for how I like to play, doesn't change the fact its a strong tier 10 heavy.

 

I CHOOSE not to play the Even 90 because the gun handling and DPM is awful, but clearly the camo and small size of the vehicle does enough to make it a very effective light tank.

 

You cannot balance vehicles on players subjective assessments and their preferences, because one players terrible tank is another player's favourite. 

 

Basically your WHOLE premise is utter nonsense. 

 

You can claim this -

 

Block Quote

 One is Garbage, other is very good tank - players who choose tank performance choose Centurion1 over Tiger2.

 

But it is factually incorrect on both counts, as the above poster shows, who would chose the Tiger 2 and the fact the objective statistics show both tanks perform similarly. So your statement is WRONG. 

 

That is just your OPINION, and considering you are extremely biased and not particularly good at the game, it's not even a well informed and experienced opinion either. 

 

One classic example of how stupid your claims are is how often you bash the E75, a tank that I have 3 marked, play fairly regularly and would easily recommend to people because it's a decent tier 9 heavy. The statistics also support that assessment, despite you regularly bashing the tank and claiming it's useless because the turret is not amazing. 

 

So on the one hand you have objective statistics saying a tank performs well + an experienced, good player (me), who has played the tank to max saying it's a good tank. 

 

And on the other you have a biased, less experienced player, less good player (you) who expects every German tank to be amazing and doesn't think the VK 100.01P is OP, who focuses on limited non-realistic scenarios like just comparing turret armour, yet thinks the tank is bad.

 

Hmmmn who to listen to.... 

 

 


Edited by tajj7, 29 August 2019 - 08:51 AM.


Innapropriate_Username #113 Posted 29 August 2019 - 06:02 PM

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View PostLong_Range_Sniper, on 28 August 2019 - 05:43 PM, said:

You really don't understand the concepts of subjective and objective choices do you?

 

View PostInnapropriate_Username, on 28 August 2019 - 04:21 PM, said:

If you will truly pick Tiger2 to go in battle OVER Centurion1...  with intention to WIN,...  you are either stupid or a Liar.

 

You can throw a tanrtum all day long about someone not liking the tanks you like, but it doesn't change the objective performance data about how each tank performs and as a consequence how balanced they are within the game system.

 

Nice dodging,

So you have no data, you don't even know how much damage per game each tanks does, or how much damage they block.

But you insist that Specific Tank Performance depends on whole team winning or loosing a random game?

No, that is only one component in that metric, at best it is 1/15 of the value.
 

View Posttajj7, on 29 August 2019 - 08:49 AM, said:

But it is factually incorrect on both counts, as the above poster shows, who would chose the Tiger 2 and the fact the objective statistics show both tanks perform similarly. So your statement is WRONG. 

 

One more of your fake/alt accounts?

wot-life.com/eu/player/Oldewolfe/  

 

P.Vic is 99% the same as Cent1, how does your different wincurves prove tank performance on identical tanks?

 

 

View Posttajj7, on 29 August 2019 - 08:49 AM, said:

Tank performance IS reflected in win performance in randoms FFS, they are the SAME thing.

 

It is REFLECTED in win performance yes, but only partially.

 

They are NOT the SAME thing.

 

View Posttajj7, on 29 August 2019 - 08:49 AM, said:

That is just your OPINION, and considering you are extremely biased and not particularly good at the game, it's not even a well informed and experienced opinion either. 
...
Hmmmn who to listen to....

 

Every single thing you claim hangs on the fact that Centurion1 and Tiger2 die from random factors, and that whole team wins the game similar amount of times.

 

What tank would you choose to Win a random battle, Centurion1 or Tiger2?

 

You use fake account and lies, I say it is perfectly clear Tiger2 is the last tank in the game you would choose.

 

So lets put it to the public vote:

 

 

http://forum.worldof...-random-battle/

 

 



Long_Range_Sniper #114 Posted 29 August 2019 - 06:13 PM

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View PostInnapropriate_Username, on 29 August 2019 - 05:02 PM, said:

Nice dodging,

So you have no data, you don't even know how much damage per game each tanks does, or how much damage they block.

But you insist that Specific Tank Performance depends on whole team winning or loosing a random game?

No, that is only one component in that metric, at best it is 1/15 of the value.

 

Are you aware of the phrase "casting pearls before swine"?

 

In fact while you're at it, enlighten yourself with a jaunt through Google and the words "macro", "micro" and "holistic".

 

Then when you're finished with that, top off your evening with a crash course in integral calculus, and statistics.

 

Then finally, a good book before bedtime would be to read up on Dave Brailsford and how to apply the "Theory of marginal gains".

 

When you've done that, pop back on the forum and ask why it's relevant how much dpm tanks have when comparing winrate performance per tank when correlated against player winrate performance overall.

 

If you understood what you read you won't ask what you've just asked.

 

Edit: PS: It's "losing".


Edited by Long_Range_Sniper, 29 August 2019 - 06:14 PM.


Innapropriate_Username #115 Posted 29 August 2019 - 06:23 PM

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View PostLong_Range_Sniper, on 29 August 2019 - 06:13 PM, said:

 

Edit: PS: It's "losing".

 

Last straw hanging on friends casting "unbiased" votes... let it run for few days, I have time...

 

c-ya.



Long_Range_Sniper #116 Posted 29 August 2019 - 06:29 PM

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View PostInnapropriate_Username, on 29 August 2019 - 05:23 PM, said:

 

Last straw hanging on friends casting "unbiased" votes... let it run for few days, I have time...

 

c-ya.

 

I have no doubt you have lots of time. To imply anything else would indicate that you hadn't wasted valuable study time up this point.



8126Jakobsson #117 Posted 29 August 2019 - 07:10 PM

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Ah, looks like there's a WR curve peen thing going on here. I don't like those to argue tank balance or how good/bad a tank is in comparison. Thing is that it generally favours armour since armour makes a tank more forgiving and thus raises the floor, but it doesn't necessary say much about the ceiling (hello T95). Makes me think of the old buffed E5 that pretty much every proper good player agreed on was too good. But hey its curve shoved it to be rather balanced so I guess they were wrong. Is it still to this day your most played tank, tajj? (yeah that old debate always pops up in my memory whenever someone comes in with the curves) :P 

NoobySkooby #118 Posted 29 August 2019 - 09:48 PM

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FL, more relaxing then Randoms, lol that line made me laugh out loud proper, I would by you a drink for that one:D

 

 

One question though for all you old pro's, does the tier 9 tech tree version of the same tank have way better armour and suchlike?


Edited by NoobySkooby, 29 August 2019 - 09:49 PM.


XxKuzkina_MatxX #119 Posted 29 August 2019 - 10:05 PM

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View PostNoobySkooby, on 30 August 2019 - 12:48 AM, said:

FL, more relaxing then Randoms, lol that line made me laugh out loud proper, I would by you a drink for that one:D

 

 

One question though for all you old pro's, does the tier 9 tech tree version of the same tank have way better armour and suchlike?

 

Not a pro but yeah, the tier 9 is much more armored at least in the hull. The VKB's lower plate used to give me nightmares a few years ago. The turret on the VKB is flat and it's ~270mm effective but its surface area is smaller than that of the VK 75 so it's harder to hit the flat surface without hitting the gun or the mantlet.

 

The VK 75 turret is curved, i think it's between 250-260mm effective which is good for a tier 8 heavy. Hitting that surface, which is big, with enough penetration is easier than the VKB's turret.

 

Overall you can say that the VK 75 is better tier for tier because at tier 9 the VKB meets tougher opponents with plenty of firepower.


Edited by XxKuzkina_MatxX, 29 August 2019 - 10:10 PM.


barison1 #120 Posted 29 August 2019 - 11:04 PM

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View PostInnapropriate_Username, on 29 August 2019 - 06:23 PM, said:

 

Last straw hanging on friends casting "unbiased" votes... let it run for few days, I have time...

 

c-ya.


ironic how the most biased guy around here is you

 

but whatever floats your boat






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