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Light Tanks - completely pointless now


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Corrupted_Pling #1 Posted 11 August 2019 - 10:36 AM

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Are light tanks now just completely pointless now to play due to these cars etc running around?

 

Used to enjoy playing the M41 bulldog and the t54 lightweight when they were tier 8 and top of the tree light tanks, now it seems whenever I play them they ave just been nerfed to hell and I get completely wrecked whatever i do by these cars.

 

Would it be to op for them to just bring back in the current meta the old clipper bulldog or move the t54 lightweight back down to tier 8 with its old stats or would these tanks be to op now like they were back in the day.

 



If_I_Die_You_Die_Too #2 Posted 11 August 2019 - 10:44 AM

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Get an LT432

 

Thats how we deal with them in Frontline

Ramming and HE

Bye bye wheelie



Corrupted_Pling #3 Posted 11 August 2019 - 10:44 AM

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View PostIf_I_Die_You_Die_Too, on 11 August 2019 - 09:44 AM, said:

Get an LT432

 

Thats how we deal with them in Frontline

Ramming and HE

Bye bye wheelie


Wallet Closed



arthurwellsley #4 Posted 11 August 2019 - 10:45 AM

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View PostCorrupted_Pling, on 11 August 2019 - 09:36 AM, said:

Are light tanks now just completely pointless now to play due to these cars etc running around?

 

Used to enjoy playing the M41 bulldog and the t54 lightweight when they were tier 8 and top of the tree light tanks, now it seems whenever I play them they ave just been nerfed to hell and I get completely wrecked whatever i do by these cars.

 

Would it be to op for them to just bring back in the current meta the old clipper bulldog or move the t54 lightweight back down to tier 8 with its old stats or would these tanks be to op now like they were back in the day.

 

 

Light tanks became weaker than they had been when they were patched from stopping at tier VIII and having new tier IXs and tier Xs. They all took a huge nerf at that point. M41 Bulldog that you refer to is a case in point. Compare it to the M41 90GF and you can see what the tech tree one used to be like, as the M41 90GF was not nerfed.

 

WV have not ruined light tanks. The nerf to them pre-dates the WV introduction.



Corrupted_Pling #5 Posted 11 August 2019 - 10:54 AM

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View Postarthurwellsley, on 11 August 2019 - 09:45 AM, said:

 

Light tanks became weaker than they had been when they were patched from stopping at tier VIII and having new tier IXs and tier Xs. They all took a huge nerf at that point. M41 Bulldog that you refer to is a case in point. Compare it to the M41 90GF and you can see what the tech tree one used to be like, as the M41 90GF was not nerfed.

 

WV have not ruined light tanks. The nerf to them pre-dates the WV introduction.


I guess but would the old m41 bulldog with the clip and the old t54 tier 8 be that op to be brought back or would they just wrecked tier 8 gameplay?



arthurwellsley #6 Posted 11 August 2019 - 11:04 AM

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View PostCorrupted_Pling, on 11 August 2019 - 09:54 AM, said:


I guess but would the old m41 bulldog with the clip and the old t54 tier 8 be that op to be brought back or would they just wrecked tier 8 gameplay?

 

Interesting question.

The issue is if the tier VIII's had been left pre-nerf, then for progression the tier IX and tier X would have had to be much stronger. WG appear to have balanced the lines around ther new tier X, and then nerfed the parameters on the lower tiers to match. The problem is that they set the tier X light tanks as far too weak compared to tier X mediums and as a consequence light tanks at tiers IX, VIII, and VII had to be so neutered as to be underpowered.

If WG brought back the old stats for the tier VIII lights the tier IX and X would probably need over buffing.

 

Better now not to refer back to how the tier VIII's used to be, but argue for a small across the board buff to all light tanks from tier VII to X.

Also the 59-16 needs its auto loader back, and the vk 28.01 needs its stubby 105 back.



Solstad1069 #7 Posted 11 August 2019 - 11:11 AM

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You just have to be more careful at the beginning if you see cars on enemy team.

clixor #8 Posted 11 August 2019 - 11:12 AM

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The problem right now isn't the lights, it's very inexperienced players playing their heavies. No matter how well you play a light you can never compensate for an entire flank of 3 or 4 heavies dying without doing any dmg.

kaneloon #9 Posted 11 August 2019 - 11:30 AM

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Problem is that you cannot expect any one to do damage in a random team first minute : 80% of the arties are still moving (class usually played by not-so-aware-players) when the scouts spots, and other tanks don't have the view range as they hide from cars or try to snipe them.

clixor #10 Posted 11 August 2019 - 11:53 AM

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View Postkaneloon, on 11 August 2019 - 11:30 AM, said:

Problem is that you cannot expect any one to do damage in a random team first minute : 80% of the arties are still moving (class usually played by not-so-aware-players) when the scouts spots, and other tanks don't have the view range as they hide from cars or try to snipe them.

 

Your team doesnt have to do dmg, although ofcourse it's nice if they do. An early scouting run main purpose is to provide intel where the enemy team is deploying.



gunslingerXXX #11 Posted 11 August 2019 - 11:59 AM

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High tier spotting system is completely broken because of a combination of P2W crews, personal reserves, crew books, improved equipment, directives, etc. Everybody has max VR, Lights with normal crew get outspotted when driving in the open at 400m. Because maps are too smal, there is no place for lights to go, not even talking about city maps

 



captainInsano #12 Posted 11 August 2019 - 12:15 PM

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I think it is hard to deny that the introduction of the WV:s has made the game uncomfortably inbalanced. Not in the sense that they are OP, but in the sense that they have changed the balance between vehicles.

WV:s now remind me pretty much about the old original T-50-2 light tank. Back then it could drive around exactly as the tier 8 WV:s can, it buzzed back and forth over the mid ridge on Prokhorovka. Like 80 kmh and super small = impossible to hit.

The obvious problem now is what you all speak about = balance. In a normal game it is hard to play a traditional LT when WVs just buzz around and spot everything, they just feel obsolete. Because they are too slow and sluggish, they will most often lose in a close combat situation vs a circling WV. Playing a tactical scout has gone so much more pointless, because why try to sit in a forward hidden position when the enemy WV runs all over the map and spots all other "normal" tanks = The hidden forward scout makes no point because his team is outspotted and they can't fire at what ever the passive scout sees.

I have no solution on what to do, because it is HARD to balance the game out of this issue. Old LTs are almost obsolete (they still work good IF no WVs are around).

Finally i kind of love and hate the new WV. Yes, they are retardedly fun to play, but no...they don't really advance the game forward. Rather the opposite, it gets more of an arcade style now. Personally i think they will change the auto-aim feature, because as it is for now it is tons of more accurate than any other autoaim. Not to mention you get 100% aim in like 1s if u stop, no problem either to pen tier 10 tanks this way in the tier 8 WVs.

Balc0ra #13 Posted 11 August 2019 - 12:19 PM

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View PostCorrupted_Pling, on 11 August 2019 - 10:36 AM, said:

Are light tanks now just completely pointless now to play due to these cars etc running around?

 

Used to enjoy playing the M41 bulldog and the t54 lightweight when they were tier 8 and top of the tree light tanks, now it seems whenever I play them they ave just been nerfed to hell and I get completely wrecked whatever i do by these cars.

 

Would it be to op for them to just bring back in the current meta the old clipper bulldog or move the t54 lightweight back down to tier 8 with its old stats or would these tanks be to op now like they were back in the day.

 

 

M41 is basically like the new UK lights should be. It's a great passive scout that can use his gun and is not that slow. But the 10 round bulldog clip would have been too much. And the T54 ltwt as the old tier 8 stat would too tbh. Gotta remember they could never be top tier back then. They had tier 9 MM. And saw tier 9 and X all day. Thus the insane clip gun. Now it sees tier 6's. 

 

But personally, like the 13 90 I enjoyed the T54 ltwt more after it became a tier 9. Bulldog is a "meh" light. Wheels is not it's biggest issue. If there is a wheel, you gotta figure out where that is before you rush in. You still have a view range advantage vs those. Bulldog's issue now is the gun. DPM is good on it, but so many have been added of late with good HE to counter LT's. Ink both German tier 8 prem lights. Either give it the DPM and pen of the M41D so it can bully again. Or push those HE rounds it has to 50 or 60 pen so it can counter wheels better. 38 is not gonna cut it when even tier 6 meds have 46mm and can pen you.  



kubawt112 #14 Posted 11 August 2019 - 12:20 PM

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Kind of, sure, but it predates WVs. Can't really expect anything else - most of the fighting takes place in areas where LTs can't really contribute much, and they lack a 'speciality'. Might as well play a T-44-100 with a good crew than an LT - the only downside is somewhat lower top speed, which the (generally) superior gun, gun handling and armor more than weighs up for.

Tanks like the T92 were sort of getting close, but little use when you can't really move about freely on most maps.



captainInsano #15 Posted 11 August 2019 - 12:24 PM

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View PostgunslingerXXX, on 11 August 2019 - 11:59 AM, said:

High tier spotting system is completely broken because of a combination of P2W crews, personal reserves, crew books, improved equipment, directives, etc. Everybody has max VR, Lights with normal crew get outspotted when driving in the open at 400m. Because maps are too smal, there is no place for lights to go, not even talking about city maps

 



Yep all true, but that is another issue. The big trade-off for WV:s now is that they have horrible view range...but that doesn't matter because they can just drive around like maniacs going back and forth at max speed, incredibly hard to hit etc. Normal LTs feel kind of retarded to play in the same battle. Enemy WVs outspot anything even if they have like 150-200m less viewrange.

You are correct though about your comment...but...before WVs LTs were still really good. Good camo and slightly faster than meds (rather better acceleration and maneuverability) and still "normal" view range. Now that we talk about "weird" things i come to think of the leFH18B2 SPG with insane view range. I have 519m view range in that SPG, like about almost twice the normal tier 5 view range. You can outspot like all tanks with ease....but that is something completely irrelevant though..haha...still funny though.



LordMuffin #16 Posted 11 August 2019 - 01:05 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 11 August 2019 - 12:19 PM, said:

 

M41 is basically like the new UK lights should be. It's a great passive scout that can use his gun and is not that slow. But the 10 round bulldog clip would have been too much. And the T54 ltwt as the old tier 8 stat would too tbh. Gotta remember they could never be top tier back then. They had tier 9 MM. And saw tier 9 and X all day. Thus the insane clip gun. Now it sees tier 6's. 

 

But personally, like the 13 90 I enjoyed the T54 ltwt more after it became a tier 9. Bulldog is a "meh" light. Wheels is not it's biggest issue. If there is a wheel, you gotta figure out where that is before you rush in. You still have a view range advantage vs those. Bulldog's issue now is the gun. DPM is good on it, but so many have been added of late with good HE to counter LT's. Ink both German tier 8 prem lights. Either give it the DPM and pen of the M41D so it can bully again. Or push those HE rounds it has to 50 or 60 pen so it can counter wheels better. 38 is not gonna cut it when even tier 6 meds have 46mm and can pen you.  

I would prefered having some of the old pre-nerf LTs in their pre nerf stats and then just bumped 1 tier up compared to what WG did with them.

 

The MM these lights existed in didn't use tiers as current one does. It used tank weight (which was based on tier, class and individual tank). So while they had samt tier restrictions as a 1 tiered higher tank, the matchmaker treated then differently from a 1 tiered higher tank.



Balc0ra #17 Posted 11 August 2019 - 01:19 PM

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View PostLordMuffin, on 11 August 2019 - 01:05 PM, said:

I would prefered having some of the old pre-nerf LTs in their pre nerf stats and then just bumped 1 tier up compared to what WG did with them.

 

The MM these lights existed in didn't use tiers as current one does. It used tank weight (which was based on tier, class and individual tank). So while they had samt tier restrictions as a 1 tiered higher tank, the matchmaker treated then differently from a 1 tiered higher tank.

 

Tbh, some tanks would still work like that, and would not even be broken one tier up like the old SP1C. But others would. The Bulldog with the 10 round clip was way too strong, even with tier 9 MM. It had 1500 clip damage. That's a full tier 8 HT. Even with the old MM, it was a bit excessive.

 

Tho personally. I wish we could have that old setup on some of our lights, but then we got the old scout MM back. Old ELC with tier 6 to 8 matches all day vs top tier? I would be fine with that. Or even a tier 6/7 ELC with that old mobility and camo. 


Edited by Balc0ra, 11 August 2019 - 01:20 PM.


lnfernaI #18 Posted 11 August 2019 - 07:00 PM

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wow look, another whine thread concerning things OP can't counter.

 

let's cater the game entirely to noobs and have fun then.



iuytr #19 Posted 11 August 2019 - 07:36 PM

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I've also noticed that there's a lot more battles with no arty, or just one. No option but to be an active spotter, which I'm hopeless at, as passive spotting with no arty is pretty pointless.

SovietBias #20 Posted 11 August 2019 - 07:37 PM

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They are not completely pointless, but the introduction of WVs, especially the top in the top tiers, did not help.

 

WVs are essentially the result of applying the WT E100 design principles to light tanks. Give them exaggerated stats in some category, hoping that the other categories balance it out, just like giving WT E100 terrible camo, armor and so so mobility, would balance out a 2k+ clip that could delete a tier X in seconds.

Just as the old tier X monstrosity drove out other TDs from the meta, these WVs, when equipped with good crews can do everything a light does better, except for some marginal cases.

 

Even before WVs, these margin situations depended mostly on the lights being faster and stealthier than mediums, exactly the strong points of this new class. As an additional bonus, they also are very good at fighting standard lights.

 

You don't want lights to take early positions, because WVs can get there faster, and after that you'd rather drive a medium tank to fight for them. Later in the game, lights can be of use if they survive, playing the skirmish cat and mouse game. But so do the WVs, mostly to the same effect. They sit in this strange spot now.

 

Also it does not help that besides AMX and T100 LT, tier X lights were already mediocre.






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