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Cliff Unbalanced

Cliff unbalanced map

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sniper_pixie #1 Posted 21 August 2019 - 02:35 PM

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Is Cliff completely unbalanced? It seems to me that every game I start on the North side, a bunch of enemy lights and mediums immediately drive to F3 and E3 and win the game for their team.

 

Game after game after game this happens. I can ping the map and tell my team to win that area all I like, and it just never happens. Even when I'm in a medium and go there myself, I'm almost always alone and die to a swarm of enemy using the dip down to the road as a hull down position until they feel like rounding the hill and finishing me off.

 

When I start South side, we almost always seem to win. We win the E3 area while North spawn try to round the lighthouse hill and get killed from the TD platform.

 

In my last game a Challenger of all tanks won E3 for the south spawn, did 3.5k and got 1400 base xp.


Edited by sniper_pixie, 21 August 2019 - 02:39 PM.


Dorander #2 Posted 21 August 2019 - 02:48 PM

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Yeah, it seems to be that it's unbalanced as well. E3 is a strong position if a bit risky, and it can't be contested the same way from the north side because of the lines of fire from south-side campers. That said, that also makes the location entirely predictable and after the initial shots it's not a place you can push from. I think the north has some better mid-ridge firing spots compared to the south, and people really need to learn that that location has to be countered, or at the very least to not blindly drive their tanks into the open to get side-shot. Additionally if you're in a fast tank you can race to D1 and get free sideshots in yourself, extra bonus for being in an autoreloader.

 

Fast enough tanks can make the mid-ridge without getting fired at from E3 and they can place themselves in positions where tanks at E3 really need to expose themselves to fire on them. Additionally the north side of that E3-F4 mountain has a ridge where a decently armoured med can sidescrape and suppress that entire location, who won't be able to retreat typically due to valley campers. It's also extremely vulnerable to enemy artillery fire, if your arty isn't raining hell on the lights and meds in E3, they're doing it wrong.



tajj7 #3 Posted 21 August 2019 - 02:53 PM

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Yes I think it is, because that E3 spot creates a cross fire and the north team then struggles to use the middle. 

 

You can counter it, but you need people to go with you as you are likely to be facing at least 3 meds/lights. You can do this by either going low and battling them on the way up, or buy going getting across the E4 quickly after going up through C5, you then fight the corner. What I find is people north usually don;t try to challenge this spot though. 

 

The other issue I find with north is more people seem to uselessly camp on the 1 line, I am presuming because there is more cover there it seems to attract more noobs who are then totally out of the game.

 

Best hope I have seen for the north team is to push round the lighthouse hill (whilst hoping either someone from your team is up the lighthouse or no one is) and then you take the H9/G9 spots (which you can get to usually undetected) from those spots you can either create a cross fire to south teams heavies fighting at the bottom of the lighthouse hill or you can get shots into the people fighting middle, if you have people fighting middle to light them up.

 

But pushing from there is tricky because of the broken K5 TD camping spot which is difficult to outspot. Usually if we win that side I then try to flex back to fight in the middle and clear that up, that usually can give you a lot of map to work with and the people at F3/E3 don't have anywhere to go. 



Nethraniel #4 Posted 21 August 2019 - 02:56 PM

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when done right, you can also support against the E3 position from C5.

You need of course a spotter for E3 for that. In C5 you can also position yourself save from fire from mid ridge.



Stevies_Team #5 Posted 21 August 2019 - 03:19 PM

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The RNG will balance things up

Bigtime_Alarm #6 Posted 21 August 2019 - 03:21 PM

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An unbalanced cliff sounds like a rock fall waiting to happen.  Put up warning signs and inform health and safety. 

Dr_Oolen #7 Posted 21 August 2019 - 03:24 PM

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Yes it is. The games are more or less lost if the north does one of these 3 things:

 

- too many people camp line 1 and never ever push anything

- people do properly push around the lighthouse (which is one of two possible ways to win on that map from north), but then continue pushing and get rekt by the camping TDs

- people just sit around the middle like ducks

 

As far as i can tell there are more or less only 2 ways how to win from north (assuming south team isnt fully braindead)

-> both get hill and go around lighthouse, but take it super slowly and methodically once the lighthouse/cliff side is won, else the camping TDs just rek you too much

-> people actually have to push and counter the south team at their OP spot, that means both push from the top side and having support from the campers on 1 line who more often than not somehow manage to camp so hard there that they manage not to spot south team's superheavies taking a minute and a half to actually drive up the 1 line and up to the doughnut...

 

EDIT: as to how to change the map...

 

I dont think rebalancing the doughnut to be mirrored would be a good idea as then it would end up being basically a headless chicken rush like it is on mines and the game would be decided by whos team rushes the doughnut or who has the faster/better tanks going there, so this imbalance might actually be a good thing. So instead id probably nerf the camping TD spots in the south or give the north just as unbalanced positions in the middle/on the hill so that they have a significant advantage there. Basically make it so that lights from north can get safely onto hill without getting shot from the middle/ramp to the middle/south of doughnut and then even give them better terrain on the hill to "easily" win against enemy lights and to have some cover from doughnut/camping TDs. 


Edited by Dr_Oolen, 21 August 2019 - 03:33 PM.


tajj7 #8 Posted 21 August 2019 - 03:24 PM

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View PostNethraniel, on 21 August 2019 - 01:56 PM, said:

when done right, you can also support against the E3 position from C5.

You need of course a spotter for E3 for that. In C5 you can also position yourself save from fire from mid ridge.

 

You are not doing much else in C5 and you don't have much cover. 



Nethraniel #9 Posted 21 August 2019 - 03:30 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 21 August 2019 - 03:24 PM, said:

 

You are not doing much else in C5 and you don't have much cover.

you should of course not stay there too long, but for the initial push, slower tanks can get shots at the enemies at E3, after that I would push on around the lighthouse or to middle.



SovietBias #10 Posted 21 August 2019 - 03:41 PM

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View PostDr_Oolen, on 21 August 2019 - 02:24 PM, said:

 

-> people actually have to push and counter the south team at their OP spot, that means both push from the top side and having support from the campers on 1 line who more often than not somehow manage to camp so hard there that they manage not to spot south team's superheavies taking a minute and a half to actually drive up the 1 line and up to the doughnut...

 

In my experience, trying F3/E3 from the top when playing north, is a trap. Tanks fast enough to cross mid are generally not suited to brawl hull down and probably would be better use someplace else, and if you try to cross once south has reached the mid, you either lose your tank or HP that you'd need to fight for that position.

 

That said, I usually fight the mid and the lighthouse side, depending on how many tanks the south commits to E3/F3, and I also agree this map is an uphill (cliff?) battle for the north. 

 

As for the 1 line, it has always been the greatest noobtrap in this game. It's incredible the amount of players that like to sit there staring at nothing, in a map older than my account. Not even prokhorovka 1 line is this bad nowadays. North or South, they end up getting farmed once the relevant map positions are won.



tajj7 #11 Posted 21 August 2019 - 03:52 PM

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View PostNethraniel, on 21 August 2019 - 02:30 PM, said:

you should of course not stay there too long, but for the initial push, slower tanks can get shots at the enemies at E3, after that I would push on around the lighthouse or to middle.

 

It's difficult to get out though from there if you are too slow, because you will get spotted from the middle and then shot from the middle/E3 as you try to cross either to lighthouse or the middle. 

 

In something relatively slow you can take a lot of damage because there is no cover.

 

I have got stuck in there in a Super Conq before. 



Dr_Oolen #12 Posted 21 August 2019 - 04:03 PM

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View PostSovietBias, on 21 August 2019 - 03:41 PM, said:

 

In my experience, trying F3/E3 from the top when playing north, is a trap. Tanks fast enough to cross mid are generally not suited to brawl hull down and probably would be better use someplace else, and if you try to cross once south has reached the mid, you either lose your tank or HP that you'd need to fight for that position.

 

That said, I usually fight the mid and the lighthouse side, depending on how many tanks the south commits to E3/F3, and I also agree this map is an uphill (cliff?) battle for the north. 

 

As for the 1 line, it has always been the greatest noobtrap in this game. It's incredible the amount of players that like to sit there staring at nothing, in a map older than my account. Not even prokhorovka 1 line is this bad nowadays. North or South, they end up getting farmed once the relevant map positions are won.

Ive had somewhat good success (as in - better than just sitting mid) doing a somewhat delayed push to the doughnut after the mid is mostly won (so that one doesnt get shrekt crossing from mid to doughnut). But yeah,  if you push there with something without turret armor and you are alone its super useless.



PowJay #13 Posted 21 August 2019 - 05:10 PM

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http://forum.worldof...still-autolose/

 

I think that this was before the change. I can't say how things have been lately but I've won and lost battles from both sides. 



Nitro_Tank #14 Posted 21 August 2019 - 05:19 PM

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Cliff is an absolutely terrible map all around. Everytime i get it i just wanna die (more than usual anyway)

Stevies_Team #15 Posted 21 August 2019 - 05:47 PM

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If you tip the whole map up at the weak side and lower the strong side it will become more balanced

Bordhaw #16 Posted 21 August 2019 - 06:05 PM

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View PostSovietBias, on 21 August 2019 - 02:41 PM, said:

As for the 1 line, it has always been the greatest noobtrap in this game. It's incredible the amount of players that like to sit there staring at nothing, 

 



LordMuffin #17 Posted 21 August 2019 - 06:18 PM

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Not imbalanced I think.
Just a regular play passive and wait until enemy attacks and then kill them map.

You can try to do stuff, but camping TDs at their spots will usually kill you.
There are some nice bushes with hardcover close to the donut area that can be used from both sides if you play a faster and rather small tank.
Both gives good shots into mid thing, north position can be used without getting spotted (which is the old area from where you can look into enemy tanks going low ground to donut and use the rocks there for safety).
South position will get you spotted, but you have a rock to hide behind and be completely safe from enemy fire until you move out and shoot again.
These bushes are located halfway between mid and donut at the edge of the high ground area. You can hide behind the rock there for safety.

The area was tricky to use in a WV tank due to their traverse. But a regular light works fine.

tank276 #18 Posted 22 August 2019 - 10:09 AM

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The southern spawn team has an advantage I think, they can rush and take the centre and have flanking shots on the hill.

 



Stevies_Team #19 Posted 22 August 2019 - 10:15 AM

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If you have a fast tank you just rush in to the houses/cliff and flank shot them as they try to get to the bottom of the hill climb

 

but many don't know to do that

 

Its a tough map with a lot going on



TheDrownedApe #20 Posted 22 August 2019 - 10:44 AM

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Yeah the only problem is the south camping TD spot on the top of the cliff. Those trying to push around the lighthouse are so open to TD shots in the side that, most of the time, it's suicide to push around





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