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The HP & DPM Powercreeps (Why Roflstomps Happen)


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Poll: Poll (52 members have cast votes)

You have to complete 250 battle in order to participate this poll.

Do you think HP is powercreeped?

  1. Yes (12 votes [23.08%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.08%

  2. No (32 votes [61.54%])

    Percentage of vote: 61.54%

  3. Not sure (8 votes [15.38%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.38%

Do you think DPM is powercreeped?

  1. Yes (38 votes [73.08%])

    Percentage of vote: 73.08%

  2. No (13 votes [25.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

  3. Not sure (1 vote [1.92%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.92%

Do you think this could be the cause of roflstomps being more common today?

  1. Absolutely! (13 votes [25.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

  2. Possibly (24 votes [46.15%])

    Percentage of vote: 46.15%

  3. Absolutely not. The reason behind roflstomps is... (comment) (15 votes [28.85%])

    Percentage of vote: 28.85%

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StronkiTonki #1 Posted 22 August 2019 - 06:17 AM

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I've been thinking of making this topic for a long time now.

With the release of the new VK 75.01 (K) I think the time is finally here to talk about what is, in my opinion, been a growing problem since more recent times.

 

I will first talk about vehicles and stats from the past and show how those vehicle types have changed over time. (1)
Then I will talk about vehicles and stats from "newer" vehicles, and show why the average alpha damage has gone up. (2)
Then I will talk about "The powercreep of HP" (3)
Then I will talk about "The powercreep of DPM" (4)

There is a simple cause for these powercreeps: The increase of alpha damage. I will focus mostly on tier 8, although other tiers also are affected. The increased amount of autoloaders have also effected this.
Back in the day, alpha damage was at a lower average than it is now. (Althought British lights might have evened it out now :trollface:)

390 used to be around the higher alhpa damage on tier 8 heavy tanks. While 400 on the T34 was the all time highest. It was a huge selling point for the T34, and made it a great moneymaker back in the day.

320 was more of an average alpha damage. Sounds weird right? Since 390 is now the average, while 320 is considered below average nowadays.

 

 

The past until now (1)

I first want to talk about "the past" of WoT. So that we can compare things to the current day.

Which non-autoloader heavies from the tech tree still have 320 alpha?

-110: Considered a bad tank because it's basically an IS-3 with less alpha.

-Tiger II: Considered a bad tank

-VK 45.02 A: Considered a bad tank

-T32: Considered a decent tank (Since it fits into the hulldown meta)

-KV-4: Considered a bad tank

And an extra heavy with lower alpha: The Caernarvon. Which is the only tank to be considered good, since it fits into the hulldown meta & has a significantly better DPM.

Here is where we quickly start seeing how badly these tanks fit into the current WoT ecosystem. Are there any "new" tech tree heavies with these kind of low alpha? No, all new heavies have higher alpha.

And all of these tanks, with the exception of the Caernarvon, have not had their stats updated in ages.

 

Now there are a few premium heavies that still can perform quite well, despite having a low alpha damage:

-AMX M4 49 "Liberté" (Gun depression to play hulldown)

-T26E5 "Patriot" (Gun depression to play hulldown)

-Löwe (Gun depression to play hulldown)

-Chrysler (If plenty of prem ammo is spammed, great IF hulldown and sidescraping)

-Caernarvon AX (Gun depression to play hulldown)

 

As you can clearly see, for a tank to be playable in any capacity while having lower alpha, it literally needs the "hull down meta".

The remaining low alpha heavy prems are the FCM 50T and the KV-5. Both tanks with prefferential matchmaking, both pretty outdated and bad nowadays.

The Löwe is the only "old" tank to have received any kind of buff to remain decent in today's standards.

The other tanks are of the "newer generation". FCM and KV-5 remain unchanged and bad.

 

The point I am trying to make here, is that unless heavies can effectively play hull down, low alpha damage just seems to makes the vehicle absolete

 

 

Let's talk about TD's, since alpha damage also plays a significant role for them:

TD's generally had around 400+ alpha. Basically where heavies maxed out, TD's had it as the standard.

Which vehicles had very high alpha back in the day?

-ISU-152: Sacrifices mobility, armor, accuracy, aimtime and has no turret, all to achieve a big 750 alpha damage. Seems like a lot of trades to get that alpha. Point being: These things did not hit you very often due to their lack of flexibility.

Ferdinand: Slow, no turret, armor was pretty good back in the day and had a healthy 490 alpha.

Jagdpanther 2: Similair to the Ferdinand, but sacrifices hull armor for a bit more speed.

-Rhm.-B WT (Which imo started the era of higher alpha): slow, no armor and has two gun choices:

1: 750 alpha. Gets a lot less pen compared to the ISU, to compensate for having a turret. Seems like a fair trade.

2: 490 alpha with good gun stats. It still had a turret, but was still kind of slow and had no armor whatsoever.

Most other TD's sat at 400 alpha or some even lower. Like the British non-turreted TD's (which are pretty bad now) and the alternative Soviet line. (Which eventually got buffed with higher alpha and armor)

 

The point I am trying to make here, is that TD's back in the day traded a lot of their flexibility to gain a lot of alpha damage. This was a balancing factor.
You can also see that TD's with lower alpha damage were always less popular, and they either remain as the worst TD's, or they were buffed in order to fit the "high alpha damage meta"

 

Autoloaders:

Autoloaders have the capability to quickly deal a lot of damage in a short amount of time. (I'm a big fan of them)

French vehicles were the only vehicles that had them. A short while after, the American T57 line introduced a few more autoloaders into the game. But generally, they were an uncommon thing.

 

 

Why average alpha has gone up (2)

I don't think this really needs a lot of explanation.

As I previously stated, the max for tier 8 heavies used to sit at 400. With most heavies capping at 390.

As for tier 9, 490 was among the highest a heavy could have. This also has been changed to 560, or even 600 if you count the Type 4's AP gun.

On tier 10, 400 is absolete today, with the exception of the unpennable hulldown Super Conq.

As for TD's, pretty much all across the board they have become more flexible over the years.

The amount of autoloaders have greatly been increased as well.

 

Looking the game today, the average alpha damage and burst damage has without a doubt gone up.

 

Let's go into some specifics: (Note: This is simply an informational list to back up my claim, not me complaining about these additions)

-Japanese derp guns (or even AP guns)

-French heavies

-Polish heavies

-German superheavies

-Defenders with 440 alpha

-More flexible TD's with turrets and way more mobility driving around:

Skorpion G with 490

SU-130PM with 520

British turreted TD's

-More Soviet heavy lines than ever with high alpha

-Czech autoloaders

-Italian autoloaders

-Swedish autoloaders

-IS-3A

-More medium tanks with slightly higher alpha than before, namely the Leopards and some of the new Swedish and Russian mediums.

-Today, a new record breaking VK 75.01 K coming to tier 8 with 490 alpha. (Something that used to be a pretty good alpha for a TD on tier 8)

 

All of the above are newer additions to the game that have simply increased the average "alpha" and "burst damage" that we see within the game.

As of today, the VK sets the bar higher for tier 8 alpha damage. People will not compare any new tier 8 heavies to the Defender anymore. They will now compare it to the VK's 490 alpha.

I want to clarify again and make it real clear that the list I just mentioned above is not me complaining about these additions to the game. It is simply a list of info to back up my claims that the average alpha and burst damage that we encounter in the game sits at a higher point than before.

 

The powercreep of HP (3)

So I have talked about the way the game has changing. Here is what effect this has made on HP:

With the increase of alpha and burst damage, I can safely say that the average tank carries a gun with higher alpha compared to a couple of years ago.

This means that the average fight will involve more vehicles with higher alpha than before.

Higher alpha means less shots to kill a tank.

 

Now in a 1v1 scenario, big alpha gets compensated with a longer reload time. So it isn't a very big deal.

DPM can be used against alpha in a very effective way during a 1v1 fight. But I'll talk about DPM a bit later.

1v1 scenarios are a rare occurance, especially early in a match.

You mostly have multiple tanks engaging other multiple tanks. Or sometimes even engaging a single tank.

So because of this, it does not really matter that high alpha guns have a longer reload time. Since there will mostly be so many tanks with high alpha engaging an enemy, that the enemy will catch a large amount of high alpha shells in quick succession regardless.

Easily said: If you have about 4 tanks with high alpha, which they have a bigger chance to have now, compared to the past, it will probably only take 1 shot from each tank to take out the enemy vehicle. So none of the tanks really end up having to reload in time to shoot again. You will mostly just end up putting only a single shot into the enemy, while your teammates do the same.

And because vehicles have a long reload, it increases the possibility of the lonely enemy vehicle to get rushed and stomped during it's reload by multiple tanks with high alpha.
If a tank is on a 13 second reload for example, the enemies have that entire reload time to all dump a shell into the reloading tank. Which quickly makes the health pool of that vehicle go from 100% to 0%

 

How often have you been in a tank at full HP, only able to fire one shot before you're being rushed and shot at by multiple tanks to instantly die?

And the other way around: How often have you rushed a full health enemy with a couple of allies, only to be able to put 1 shell into that tank, and not reloading quick enough for a second shot, because it already died before you finished reloading?

Both pretty often, right?

 

Have you been wondering why the average battle time has gone down so drastically? Why "roflstomps" are more common than ever?

Well I personally think it is because of the increase of alpha and burst damage.

Like I said: More alpha = less shots to kill = less time to kill because of multiple tank engagement, making "long reloads" meaningless.

Things get killed quicker, flank gets pushed quicker, battle gets done quicker.

 

Autoloaders also help in this regard. They just add how quickly a tank can die. Enemy is on reload? Empty the mag and retreat. The enemy won't be able to fire back, since it will be engaged by plenty of other tanks dumping high alpha rounds into it.

Again: More tanks with autoloaders and burst damage = less time to kill a tank = quicker matches. Again, it does not matter that a tank has to reload it's clip. Since there will be plenty of other autoloaders or high alpha tanks engaging that tank in the meantime. You get one high alpha shell after the other. One clip after the other, purely because there are so many of them, and the average amount of tanks with high alpha and burst damage is higher than ever.


Here's another example:

Sniping. If there's a lot of people camping, and a tank gets spotted somewhere where the campers have aim, the spotted tank probably gets absolutely annihilated in no time. Why?

Because of the amount of high alpha guns and autoloaders shooting that tank. Reload time again has no meaning here. Since the tank will be instantly annihilated the second it gets spotted because of all the alpha and autoloaders.

 

How often has it happened where someone gets spotted, and that tank literally gets taken out from full health to 0 before you can even aim in time? Pretty often as well, right?

 

Now I want to make something clear again: I know that all the examples above do not happen every time. That should be obvious. But I think it happens plenty times to be pretty noticable and game changing

 

Main conclusion? Well, HP obviously has not been touched. But the average amount of tanks with high(er) alpha and burst damage have gone up.

Tanks die quicker than ever. HP has been powercreeped as a result. Simple as that.

This is especially noticable when playing lights and mediums. You're just barely allowed to make mistakes anymore compared to in the past. You often just instantly pay full price, or instantly get crippled so badly, that you're not able to take any more risks, and end up camping the rest of the match. And I personally love the risks you can sometimes take in this game, which can be absolutely rewarding at times.

 

 

The powercreep of DPM (4)

Alpha and DPM. The two big rivals.

It used to be a tactical choice. And both are good in certain situation, right? Right....?

Well, in a 1v1 battle DPM could be useful. (If your enemy with high alpha does not just poke and reload around a corner the whole time, which is a very common scenario in 1v1 fights.

Now I'm not gonna say that DPM is absolutely useless. But is it as useful as it used to be? I personally do not think so.

 

Take the examples I made earlier: Lots of tanks with high alpha driving around. Your allies will instantly take all those sweet hitpoints away before you're even able to reload, all because they take all the large chunks of health at an instant. While you're relying on the enemy to stay alive for a few more seconds for you to reload. Which mostly does not happen.

The sniping example? Again, an enemy will either retreat when it's spotted, so it will be back in cover by the time you can shoot your second "low alpha shell" into it.

Either that, or the enemy will be killed by all the high alpha and autoloaders before you are reloaded.

In a nutshell: You often only get 1 chance to shoot someone, because it will either die in a few seconds, or get back in cover.

 

I've had it happen very often where an enemy gets spotted, I shoot it from afar, do a bit of damage with my "DPM gun". Right after that, it's already dead before I'm even reloaded. Either that or it's back in cover again. You often only get 1 chance to shoot.

Plenty of times I've also ended up flanking an opponent with my medium tank with "high DPM", I shoot it once, and it's killed by all the high alpha and/or autoloaders on my team before I can even reload.

 

I will again point out that I am fully aware that all of this does not happen every single time ever.

But in my experience, it happens the majority of times.

There are definitely still moments where DPM can truly be super useful. Keeping opponents tracked, putting multiple shots into someone right when an enemy starts reloading, killing off multiple low health targets. Absolutely.

But I personally think in the majority of cases, in the current state of the game, alpha seems to be dominating the game.

 

 

Solution?

I am not too sure. I wouldn't simply say "buff all HP". There should probably be more thought put into what kind of classes would need health buffs more than others.

I am also not gonna yell "nerf alpha and autoloaders!". Although maybe they need better DPM in trade for a bit of alpha, or maybe we just need more tanks with higher DPM in the game? I wouldn't know for sure, it's not up to me to decide. This game has a ton of balancing factors everywhere. So any ideas should be thought out, discussed and tested properly.

 

But I definitely think that roflstomps would be a lot less common in the game without these issues. The game would also be a lot more enjoyable with not having to pay full price for a mistake. And being able to take more risks in the game again.

At the same time, there would be more meaningful choice between choosing a tank with alpha or choosing a tank with DPM.

In the past, I used to often go for DPM on tanks, since it was more my playstyle. But in the current state of the game, I "feel" that I need to choose the higher alpha to stay competetive, so that my allies don't snatch all the damage infront of me.


Edited by StronkiTonki, 22 August 2019 - 06:21 AM.


TankkiPoju #2 Posted 22 August 2019 - 07:12 AM

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IMO there are two main reason why roflstomps happen:

 

1. Power creeped tanks. This has been discussed so often, so I just skip this.

 

2. Growing disparity in average player skill

 

There are basically three kinds of players in WoT:

 

1. people who become unicums or even super unicums over time

2. people who get better over time. Not great but definitely better.

3. people who don't learn anything. Maybe ever.

 

Quite frankly, the problem is the difference between groups 2 and 3. Imagine games where team A has 45% players as top tiers, and team B has 50% players. Team B will win almost every time.

 

The landslide losses happen because group 2 has one skill that group 3 does not have: They know when they have absolutely superior numbers on a flank so they can just crush the enemy there. Also group 2 often has already skills in micro management, meaning they know hulldown locations and can just sheer outplay group 3 players.

 

Group 1 doens't really matter that much because the number of unicums and super unicums is pretty small anyway.

 

That's just my two cents.



Hamsterkicker #3 Posted 22 August 2019 - 07:17 AM

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Very well said, sir..

 

Although one thing I would like to add that there are 3 more factors that contribute to ROFLstomps:

- a good spotter will light up the enemies and then everybody will have a chance to shoot and like you said once spotted any tank gets evaporated in seconds nowadays. But how often are you not on the wrong team.. Recently, wheeled vehicles have definitely contributed to this faster pace of the game.

- at higher levels most people will have some experience with clan play and also there it is all about creating situations where you have more tanks than the other team, focus fire and to kill thet tank with lowest HP first. Last evening I had the "pleasure" to play in a frontline match against a team of high level clan players all with Progetto's.. We were just annihilated.

- key positions not taken so giving map control of a crucial sector to the other team. Combine that with all you have said and basically the match is lost within the first 30 seconds..



feoffle3 #4 Posted 22 August 2019 - 08:06 AM

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View PostHamsterkicker, on 22 August 2019 - 07:17 AM, said:

 

- a good spotter will light up the enemies and then everybody will have a chance to shoot and like you said once spotted any tank gets evaporated in seconds nowadays. 

 

Judging by this comment, you don't play light tanks much. If you did, you would know how frustrating it is when you light up enemies, and your team mates sit there, with saliva slowly dripping out of their mouths, not shooting them.



TankkiPoju #5 Posted 22 August 2019 - 08:17 AM

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View Postfeoffle3, on 22 August 2019 - 08:06 AM, said:

 

Judging by this comment, you don't play light tanks much. If you did, you would know how frustrating it is when you light up enemies, and your team mates sit there, with saliva slowly dripping out of their mouths, not shooting them.

 

This is true, but also on many maps it comes down to area denial.

 

Meaning when the enemy team shoots at an annoying light tank, they usually stop and aim. And when they are standing sitll, they can't advance to important locations.

 

So basically light tanks and French wheeled vehicles can influence games just by being annoying and taking attention.

 



Hamsterkicker #6 Posted 22 August 2019 - 08:17 AM

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Oh yeah, I know how frustrating it is to play a light, lighting up all the enemies and seeing that none gets hit... but I also wanted to add that spotting is not only a task of a light.. meds can do that equally well. Heck, one of the best Patrol Duty Medals I ever got was on El Halluf in a tier iv Matilda...

Alukat123 #7 Posted 22 August 2019 - 08:29 AM

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View PostHamsterkicker, on 22 August 2019 - 08:17 AM, said:

Oh yeah, I know how frustrating it is to play a light, lighting up all the enemies and seeing that none gets hit... but I also wanted to add that spotting is not only a task of a light.. meds can do that equally well. Heck, one of the best Patrol Duty Medals I ever got was on El Halluf in a tier iv Matilda...

 

I did get Patrol Duty Medals several times on heavy tank, same with the Scout medal :D

 

On Topic, yes, the powercreep is pretty terrible , playing Tiger P isn't fun anymore and the impact rather small with all those powercreeped tier 8 tanks. 


Edited by Alukat123, 22 August 2019 - 08:30 AM.


tajj7 #8 Posted 22 August 2019 - 08:57 AM

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Whilst I agree there has been alpha powercreep, there has also been armour powercreep, which means there are more armoured tanks about (most paper tanks are out of the meta at higher tiers and often only played by hipsters) and most of these armoured tanks are difficult to kill.

 

So IMO that should in theory cancel out the alpha increase because you have more tanks that people just don't pen reliably, and should therefore survive longer, thus pushing the game longer.

 

Thus, if we go with the assumption that more one sided games are happening and games are shorter (and I am not sure at all this is the case and we'd need actual data on this) then I would hypothesise that this is down to -

 

1. A general player skill drain, better players have left the game, people running clans know this from how difficult it is to find good active players, I know loads of unicums and bluenicums that have left the game due to various issues, mainly around the silly balance decisions WG keeps making, like all the idiot proof no skill heavies,the bad maps, the continued presence of arty etc. etc

 

2. This is then coupled with a mature playerbase that is in general bad, this means lots of people have 1000s upon 1000s of battles and have failed their way to tier 10.  It used to be at higher tiers you'd mainly see (if you have XVM) sort of yellow/greens and above, but now you look at teams and half of both teams is often made up of 40k, 50k, 70k etc. battle players who have 45-47% WRs, who have learned nothing over all those games but have played so much they have multiple tier 9s and 10s. to play.

 

3. A further issue is then that WG have thrown credits at us, in PMs, in Frontlines, in improved premium account, in free premiums, in boosters etc. The credit grind is as easy as it has ever been IMO, and this means that whereas previously playing badly at higher tiers a lot of people couldn't afford it for very long, now players can fail at tier 10 over and over but are swimming in credits (we only have to see the black market with people spending 25 million credits on tanks to show the credits out there).

 

4. Over recent years the XP grind has eased as well, which means the newer players in the game have had a much easier and quicker path to higher tiers (combined with the above easier credit grind) so we have XP missions, we have more x5s, we have XP boosters, we have premiums with x5 packages, we have the new premium account with its X3 boost ability etc. so added to the mature but bad playerbase, we have inexperienced players also at higher tiers quicker than they used to be and not knowing what they are doing. 

 

5. The general babying/forgiving nature of a lot of WGs recent decisions has bred bad players who haven't learnt anything. Corridor maps so they don;t get flanked/shot in the side, idiot proof armoured tanks so they just sit in the open and get away with it, OP base camping spot that demand nothing of the player etc. Thus the previous steep learning curve of the game that challenged people as they went up the tiers has become far less steep, so these players learn less, and then they start venturing out of their idiot proof heavies, out of their base camping spots, onto the non-corridor maps and they are clueless and get farmed.

 

 

So those 5 factors IMO combine to produce a playerbase that is just bad and lacks the skills to do well.  Which means of your 30 players in a game the vast majority have no idea what they are doing or how to play competently. So more often than not, some of them die quickly and then the numbers snowball to a landslide win, with the good players on that team not having the time to turn the game around because 5 of their bot teammates are dead in the first 1-2 minutes. 

 

Then to the terrible playerbase, you add in unbalanced maps like Fjords where one team only has to get to certain spot and will win the game most of the time, horrible tank balance where you have Defenders vs IS-6, or Bobjects vs Grille 15s, that is further made worse by the template system where the power of the team is often in 3-4 to tier tanks. 

 

So you have a perfect storm of terrible players who are swept away by 1-2 OP top tier tanks on unbalanced maps, as their top tier tanks are either inferior or played by very bad players. 

 

Alpha/DPM/burst power creep certainly could be a factor and increasing HP pools could probably help a little (it is something that WG is looking at for lower tiers) but I think there are multiple factors, IMO if you want to improve the quality of the gameplay and hopefully ease the number of one sided games (we will always get them as its the nature of the game) you need to do the following -

 

1. Put the learning curve back into the game, make getting to higher tiers more about the survival of the fittest, get rid of idiot proof armour like Japanese heavies, Bobjects, Defenders etc. and have heavies and TDs that have weakspots, that have weaknesses (we have too many all round heavies that can do everyhing, be a med, be a heavy like IS7, 277, 260 etc.). Tone down the camo of the 1.0 bushes by a lot so heavies and low camo TDs can't hide so easily, so things like view range knowledge, camo knowledge, double bushing becomes important again. 

 

Make maps better, make them bigger, make them have options for players not 1-2 corridor spots, don't design them with the 'heavies brawl here' 'TDs camp here' locations that they currently design them with, remove all these OP base camping ledges or make them less strong so base camping bots are actually forced to move or think about what they are doing.

 

Maps need to give players tactical options, force them to think and they need to punish bad play. 

 

2. Fix tank balance, buff all the bad tanks, tone down the power creep tanks, nerf the OP tanks and bring stuff up to the level of the OP premiums. Put weakspots back in the game properly on all tanks. Make the russian/chinese heaviums slower, less agile, with worse gun handling so they are more like the old T-10, instead of as they are now able to basically keep up with mediums, snap like mediums etc. Make lights viable again. 

 

3. Fix unbalanced maps, there is no excuse for stuff like Fjords or Cliff or Mines encounter, where teams lose because they can't counter 1-2 specific spots, games shouldn't be decided by the luck of your spawn. 

 

4. If you are going to stick with a template system it has to be stricter on matching tanks to types/role, we need new roles assigned to tanks that reflect what they can/should be doing in games, not TD v TD, med v med etc. You can't have 3-5-7 games with 3 tier 10s a side on a city map where you give one team a Bobject, a Maus and 430U and on the other side you have an Strv 103b, a 50b and a T-62A, that is just stupid.  Make sure teams have a good balance of frontline and support tanks, restrict the numbers of each in a team, so max 1 arty, max 3 lights, at least 3 frontline tanks, 1 has to be top tier, stuff like that so you produced balanced teams that have a good amount of HP/armour, not teams of TDs, lights and arty where there is no armour, no HP and everyone wants to play support or hide at the back. 

 

5. Hate to say it but the grind/credit grind needs to be longer, it needs to be harder to sustain tier 9/10 play whilst playing badly even with prem account, it needs to take longer to fail to higher tiers.

 

6. Tone down one shot/high alpha/high clip damage, so that one mistake doesn't open up massive gaps or turn games in an instant. So lower the damage of 183s, JpE100s, KV-2, ISU-152s, Bat Chats, Foch Bs etc. 



Dr_Oolen #9 Posted 22 August 2019 - 09:04 AM

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Yes, id definitely say that the alpha/dpm/autoloader powercreep contributes significantly to the roflstomps, but id still say that the most contributing factor is the whole balance itself. Basically these days the difference between the best and worst tanks on one tier is as large as the difference between 2 tiers used to be like 4 years ago. So if one team happens to get the OP tanks as top tiers while the other gets the bad tanks its practically the same like one team having (for example) tier 7-8 tanks and the other one having T7-9 tanks in their lineup. And then the second most significant reason for roflstomps is conbimation of the tank difference and one team getting [edited]in top tiers and the other team not getting [edited].

 

Basically if enemy team has top tier 277, bobject, chieftain, 430U or what have you driven by at least an average player and the other team has E5, grille, 50B and a 30B driven by tomatos theres literally 0% chance to win the game, and i truly mean this. Then on top of that these days all tanks are being "extreme" at something (be it sniping/hulldown/whatever) so many tanks are super OP on some maps and super useless on others. The biggest problem is overall "hulldown" tanks imo, which are simply way too op on too many maps in too many situations. If you get westfield (or literally like 50% of the maps in the game) and one team has top tier broken OP hulldown tank like chieftain while the other team has top tiers with paper turrets and no gun depression then you simply lose and you cant do crapabout that.

 

Basically in my opinion the roflstomps would mostly get fixed by proper map/tank balance. Too many maps favor hulldown tanks too much and having turret armor is probably the one most important thing a tank can have in the game currently to do well. Followed by alpha, gun depression and then frontal armor. Then on top of that the hulldown tanks also for some reason happen to be just as good outside of hulldown as pretty much all other tanks anyway as they rarely have any actual downsides. So basically - remove all the obviously consciously placed piles of rubble that all maps are littered with that basically allow every tank with turret armor to roflstomp over everything. In general open the maps up more and smooth out all the hills so that even tanks with like 8° of gun depression can play properly on more spots. And then simply nerf all the op broken tanks by giving them actual downsides and buff the tanks that are useless to make their supposed strong points actually strong. You cant fix the problem of one team getting tomatoes in op tanks and the other unicums.



WhoCares01 #10 Posted 22 August 2019 - 09:17 AM

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Speed is another factor. Faster tanks, and I am not just talking about the cars but also heaviums, bridging gaps quicker, flanking, overrunning. Combine that with auto(re)loaders and a slow creeping glacier turns into an avalanche.

tajj7 #11 Posted 22 August 2019 - 09:37 AM

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View PostWhoCares01, on 22 August 2019 - 08:17 AM, said:

Speed is another factor. Faster tanks, and I am not just talking about the cars but also heaviums, bridging gaps quicker, flanking, overrunning. Combine that with auto(re)loaders and a slow creeping glacier turns into an avalanche.

 

Heaviums need toning down IMO, the likes of the 430U (which is basically a heavy classified as a med), 277, Obj. 260, Obj. 257, Obj. 430, Obj. 277, IS-7 Wz-111-5A, all need their speeds bring down to like 40-45kph max, with worse agility, worse DPM and worse gun handling.

 

This would then allow proper mediums, who have nowhere near the same armour, to have proper advantages in speed, agility, DPM and gun handling like they should have.

 

Those heaviums are at the moment just far too good all round. It's just silly something like the 277, has with a 490 alpha gun, has almost as good gun dispersion values (slightly worse on moving/traverse, better on turret) than a Cent AX has with a 390 alpha gun, and it goes faster than the Cent AX and still has like 17 hp/ton to the Cent AX's 19 hp/ton, and the DPM difference is not even that massive. 

 

When you have something as well armoured as that, that is able to go 55kph, snap shop like a medium, has 490 alpha but still has 2.5k DPM you have to wonder what the point of a medium is. 



Alukat123 #12 Posted 22 August 2019 - 09:40 AM

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View PostDr_Oolen, on 22 August 2019 - 09:04 AM, said:

 

Basically in my opinion the roflstomps would mostly get fixed by proper map/tank balance. Too many maps favor hulldown tanks too much and having turret armor is probably the one most important thing a tank can have in the game currently to do well. Followed by alpha, gun depression and then frontal armor.

 

Yeah, empire's border literally the worst map, all spots for fighting need somewhat okay gun depression and then you get that map in VK 45.02B (5° Gun Depression). The only thing one can do there is to use armor and distract enemy gun fire away from the tanks with good gun depression, one's certainly not going to be able to shoot anything at the main battle spots.

 

All the maps certainly need an overhaul for tanks with bad gun depression and where the turret is the weakspot.



Balc0ra #13 Posted 22 August 2019 - 09:55 AM

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View PostWhoCares01, on 22 August 2019 - 09:17 AM, said:

Speed is another factor. Faster tanks, and I am not just talking about the cars but also heaviums, bridging gaps quicker, flanking, overrunning. Combine that with auto(re)loaders and a slow creeping glacier turns into an avalanche.

 

This. Mobility vs armor and pen vs armor are bigger factors. Sure you have tanks with DPM powercreeps like the T34 vs the buffed Caernarvon if he got in his face. But MM not balancing armor vs mobility etc is a huge factor to the "roflstomps" I see.

 

A perfect example of speed would be Serene Coast. Most huge losses I've had there is because I have T95's and Type 4's that go to the HT lane. The enemy has T-10's and 103's. They go the medium lane. And by the time my sluggers notice the enemy HT lane is rater empty and start to move to react to it. By the time they have the enemy top tiers in their sights. The enemy has already pushed vs our tier 7 and 8 meds and lights and cleared their side of the railway. And is just boxing your sluggers in.

 

The other is when your top tier HT's is a T32 and an IS-6. Vs the enemy VK 100.01 and Defender. If both go the HT lane. DPM and HP won't matter, when your HT's can't reliably pen the enemy equal tier armor. One less so even with gold.

 

 


Edited by Balc0ra, 22 August 2019 - 09:56 AM.


Bordhaw #14 Posted 22 August 2019 - 10:49 AM

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View PostTankkiPoju, on 22 August 2019 - 06:12 AM, said:

IMO there are two main reason why roflstomps happen:

 

1. Power creeped tanks. This has been discussed so often, so I just skip this.

 

2. Growing disparity in average player skill

 

There are basically three kinds of players in WoT:

 

1. people who become unicums or even super unicums over time

2. people who get better over time. Not great but definitely better.

3. people who don't learn anything. Maybe ever.

 

Quite frankly, the problem is the difference between groups 2 and 3. Imagine games where team A has 45% players as top tiers, and team B has 50% players. Team B will win almost every time.

 

The landslide losses happen because group 2 has one skill that group 3 does not have: They know when they have absolutely superior numbers on a flank so they can just crush the enemy there. Also group 2 often has already skills in micro management, meaning they know hulldown locations and can just sheer outplay group 3 players.

 

Group 1 doens't really matter that much because the number of unicums and super unicums is pretty small anyway.

 

That's just my two cents.

 

 

 

 

 



malachi6 #15 Posted 22 August 2019 - 10:56 AM

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There are a great many variables affecting the outcome of a battle and you boil it down to two.  A holistic approach is a better way to examine the game.  Complaining about MM, RNG, ammo etc only moves problems elsewhere.  Ultimately, you will never remove so-called roflstomps as the biggest influence upon a game are the people that play it.  if a person thinks they lose because of a reason, that reason becomes the thing they discuss.

In_Flames90 #16 Posted 22 August 2019 - 11:04 AM

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Already been mentioned

Edited by In_Flames90, 22 August 2019 - 11:07 AM.


Stevies_Team #17 Posted 22 August 2019 - 11:12 AM

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Tier 8 9 10 need bigger maps

 

Mines is a total joke map for example



Geoffrey_Ironfist #18 Posted 22 August 2019 - 11:28 AM

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I think power creep is a minor problem when compared to the problem with the player base and how the matchmaker assigns the very few capable players in combination with players trying to fit as many battles as possible in the shortest period time, perhaps after activating a reserve. And to get the best out of that reserve, they also buy a tier VIII premium, when they are actually noobs or not very able.

 

I don't have XVM but out of curiosity now and then I check the stats of the players in the two teams after a battle. Usually, almost invariably, I am the only player on my teams with higher than 50% winrate. The situation on enemy teams is usually the same, though sometimes weird things happen but on average it seems the case. If I see a threatened flank and go there on my own I may get overran by the entire enemy team who decided to all go that side. Or the other day I was in a slow and sluggish TD that was yoloed by an enemy light that predicted where I would be (probably he had XVM and saw what tank I had and guessed whereabouts I might be because usually there are only a couple of places TDs can deploy at game start), went through our entire team unharmed and was not killed until he had taken me out. So in such cases we lose. And it is usually a runaway defeat or victory when the only decent player dies early.

 

The other thing that affects games is that lots of bad players don't care about the stats, they seem to just want to get the battle over quickly so they can squeeze in as many battles as possible, maybe while a reserve is active or something. So they all rush and either overran the enemy team or they panic and die. If you happen to be a more cautious player or have a slow tank or a tank with no armour, and your team disappears beyond the horizon, you will not likely have the chance to influence the battle outcome much, whatever happens, whether they win or whether they lose - in which case you will end up left practically alone having to face all the enemy tanks.

 

The MM also does not help. I was in a bottom tier tank in one 3-5-7 battle in which two of the top tier players were in a platoon of Skorpion G's, one of them having a 40% winrate after having played only 33 battles and the other having a winrate of 46% with just over 200 battles. They did not even shoot their guns, they just died.



Alukat123 #19 Posted 22 August 2019 - 11:32 AM

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View PostGeoffrey_Ironfist, on 22 August 2019 - 11:28 AM, said:

I think power creep is a minor problem when compared to the problem with the player base


Power-creep is a major problem, when playing with older non-power creeped tanks. As it stands Tier 6-8 is just absolutely unplayable with older tanks like VK 45.02A, Tiger P. Those old tanks don't have enough armor and can be taken out by the newest Tier 8 , the VK 75.01 K, with only 3 shots, while those tanks need to pen 6-9 shots to take the VK 75.01k down... And don't get me started with those obj. 430 you encounter, hardly any chance to pen them while they dump one pen after another into your heavy...

Game is totally broken atm and needs a major balance overhaul.

 


Edited by Alukat123, 22 August 2019 - 11:36 AM.


VarzA #20 Posted 22 August 2019 - 11:39 AM

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The problem is not as simple as HP, the problem is that some good tanks (or amazing tanks) are not balanced vs some bad tanks (or very bad tanks).

 

If your team gets a Caernarvon and they get a Tiger II, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know how it will turn out.

If you get O-HO and VK 100.01 P on city map and they get AMX 65t and Tiger II, guess how it's going to turn out ?

 

On top of that you have certain mediums that can play the role of heavies as well.

430U vs 30B, guess which team has the better odds ... the 430U can do both heavy and medium job, the 30B can only do medium dpm job ... can't even play hulldown.

 

And superheavies are no longer matched either, though they both have powerfull armor and extra HP to much through.

So you might get 2 Maus on city map while they get 50B and Kranvagn.

 

On the flipside if you get prokh and your team has fast heavies like 5A/277  while they have Maus and Type 5, guess who will have the better game.

 

And this extends into lights as well, they have wheelies and td's, your tracked scouts are kinda useless.


Edited by VarzA, 22 August 2019 - 11:40 AM.





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